ASB Premiership: Changes Needed Next Season

So how do you deal with situations like Shane Knowles at Olympic contracting players to work for him under the guise they play for Olympic?

write the regulation - if the club can then prove that the income they are receiving is for work un-related to playing football then they are cleared.  To be honest if someone wants to give someone an actual job in return for them playing for their club and they are getting paid to actually work for said person then they are not getting paid to play are they?  

I know what your saying - but it's going to be pretty hard to cover something like that up.

My whole point before was you don't just assume every club is within regs - you do the opposite and assume they are not and tell them they have to prove they are rather than NZF proving that they are not.

If a club is getting funding from trusts etc then they will have independently audited books so it would be hard to hide money the size we are talking about here.

Someone said this before - clubs should be providing excellent coaching and training facilities for players so that the players have the best chance of reaching the highest level - money paid to players at NRFL etc level is just siphoning off these funds.  

And it's tough because since everyone seems to do it there is almost an expectation to pay players to stay competitive - but honestly where is the money best spent?

I see what you mean, but there is a good chance they wouldn't be at Olympic if they weren't working for Knowlsey (and receiving money from him).

But i agree with you about player payments and where the money should go. I was just providing a situation where it could be tough to police.

yeah it's a grey area - but if you can stop most of it then it will become pretty obvious to everyone else the guys that are cheating the system and then NZF can focus on those clubs.  

i think most footy people agree the money should get put back into the game - the tricky question is how do we achieve it..

i mean $6k for one player - that's crazy money.. and can not be sustainable.

if the nrl can't enforce a cap with their resources, this idea, although probably necessary, becomes futile

paul sg, i agree with most things you say

i would argue that the money is there for clubs.  outside auckland, the clubs are well cashed and better at raising funds than the franchises. 

players will naturally gravitate towards successful clubs in either structure, but the real key to making sure the top players play in the top league, irrespective of the  money being offered, is the appeal (standard) of the league, as was the case in the 70's and 80's.  this is not the case now, many players are more interested in turning out for their clubs than what has become a player development league (outside auckland of course).

i'd be interested to know if there is anyone on these forums who is involved with a club at committee level and what they make of the argument club vs franchise

more specifically, i'd be interested to see whether their club would hypothetically be able to equip themselves to be competitive in a national league

i am - i'm the chairman for Ellerslie and I believe eventually we could be a base for a franchise but i don't know if we would want to. 

I think we would much rather be a part of a group of clubs that were feeding a franchise - kind of like East Auckland if you remember them in the old national league.

I firmly believe that in the current environment more and more money needs to be on resources such as facilities and coaching at club level rather than on players.

 nice one chopah

i remember east auckland and they were screwed over by NZF sudden decision to ditch the old league

EA was a worthy concept and from memory the whole debacle prompted uni mount to effectively end any competitive football

my opinion is that the franchise league has stripped a competitive layer from our national league.  what oit has done well is 1. keep a league of sorts going, and 2. produce two teams (waitak and acfc) of an exceptional domestic standard

yeah i'm not a huge fan of the franchise based national league (i mean the two "franchises" you mentioned are just clubs in disguise anyway) but i think it's realistically the only way we are going to have a true national league.  

many people think East Auckland was just uni-mt and while lot's of the players were from that club the board was actually evenly made up of people from all the member clubs (which was from memory, Ellerslie, Eastern Suburbs, Fencibles and Bucklands Beach + Uni-Mt of course), and since they only had what was two seasons i think there wasn't much of a chance for the other clubs to start feeding players in.

More recently we have had Auckland Manukau in youth level and they competed well and there was certainly a Onehunga Sports influence but we had a fair amount of players there and two or three members of the coaching staff as well.  

i just hope if there is a 3rd auckland team and if it's based out south that it's not just another club in disguise - if it's a franchise league then let's embrace the franchise idea and work with some other central and south auckland clubs and provide a pathway for our talented young kids - because ACFC and to a lesser extent WU don't do that for my club. 

you're possibly right about the franchise league being our only option, but i'm not convinced it's working

it leaves nothing for the clubs to play for apart from the chatham cup

the problem for me is that clubs are now effectively the third tier, behind the phoenix and the franchise league

like someone mentioned earlier, they are just there as farms for talent to be whipped straight off them, so what's the point of developing if there's no reward?  remember that humans are inherently egotistical, so it's in our nature to want our club to be the strongest, but like uni-mount decided, what's the point?

and it's not the same for the franchises, as they are by-in-large not well connected to grassroots like clubs are

Not quite Reg. Uni-Mt did another 3 years at NRFL Premier level. They pulled out of it because they were effectively broke. They reckon that one season pulling out of NRFL put them back in black such was the funding it cost them to have a team there. They have not gone back in and the club is in a financially sound state. 

ah, sweet as jeff, i stand corrected

i do remember them issuing the 'what's the point' cry as they withdrew

Thanks for all your opinions on my post. It's been interesting to read but a great pity that the finance just would never be there. There are some big companies out there and it's just a real shame that they can't be tempted to invest in local footy.

Does anyone feel that maybe NZF missed an opportunity after the AW's qualified for the 2010 World Cup? Would it have made a difference?

The problem with the ASBP is that half the 8 teams are weaker than probably 10 winter club teams.  That's not a good situation.

Someone suggested winter leagues qualify you into a summer "champions league" format.  4 from Northern league, 3 central, three southern (2 Chch and one Dunedin say).  Some playoffs in there somewhere.  Something to think about?  For one, crowds would be significantly better 

I like the sound of that idea, JD. Would certainly add to the excitement of domestic footy again. But would people's fears on here about finance still be an issue? That is to say, would clubs spend way beyond their means in order to win a place in the summer national league?

Also, I think it'd be necessary for strict transfer rules to be in place too. Otherwise you'd end up with a situation similar to now where the best players are taken away to compete in the summer, meaning turning out for two sides every year. But I am just playing devil's advocate and like the idea... :)

This whole club-based vs franchise summer league issue is interesting but there are many grey areas and history doesn't serve the idea of a club based national league well.

For instance ACFC (Central United), Hawkes Bay (Napier City Rovers) and Waitakere United (WC) are essentially club-based, even though technically franchises. Team Wellington has now been reduced to being an offshoot of Miramar Rangers (even using their ground). So that means half the ASBP is essentially club-based.

Of the other franchises only Canterbury United seems to be working. All due respect but Manawatu, Waikato and Otago are attracting little local support and are struggling to remain viable.

In the past when there was a club-based national league the relatively high travel/player costs essentially bankrupted a number of once high profile clubs. Look at Mt Wellington, North Shore United, Gisborne, Dunedin City, Christchurch United. Where are they now, just a shadow of their former selves. I actually liked the club structure for the passion and loyalty it engenders and used to enjoy watching the likes of the old North Shore United and Mt Wellington in their heyday. But that collapsed under the weight of costs.

The problem with the ASBP is New Zealand Football is not really interested in its own National League. By that I mean they are not prepared to invest real money into developing it. Essentially the ASBP is self-funding (through trust/sponsorship money and O League prizemoney) which makes it lopsided because a few successful franchises dominate. I imagine with a $65,000 entry fee to NZF and players wanting more than expenses, it probably costs $200,000 to $300,000 to be reasonably competitive in the ASBP. To be in the top three and participate in the O League you'd have to double that. How many winter clubs could do that? Then to be viable in the Fifa Club World Cup throw in another hundred thousand or more, even with the O League prizemoney. To do what ACFC does each season is beyond the means of most of the clubs/franchises (as WU proved last time it competed and failed to qailify).

If NZF put up say $300-500,000 in prizemoney for the ASBP and didn't grab a slice of any O league winnings (meaning more of it could be split with the other teams) then I think the competition could be reduced to a club-based reality. 

What we have now is a mishmash of successful clubs backing so called "franchises" and a few genuinely successful ones like Canterbury United. I hope a South Auckland franchise comes into the ASBP, whether it's based on one club or draws from several. Likewise I'd like to see the same for north of the harbour bridge. But the clubs on the north shore are notorious for their petty squabbling, which has always been a drawback in NZ football.

The summer ASBP is the best option we have and has lifted the standard of our domestic players. A lot of NZ players have gone through it and on to better things like Rojas, Brockie, Sigmund, Hogg, Fenton, Boyd etc. The problem is it's lopsided, a mishmash and underfunded (except for ACFC)  That's down to NZF's lack of interest and investment. It should be their top priority, but it's not. There lies the problem. 

 

it would be worth remembering that we had a very successful promotion relegation club based national league since 1970.  it was not a little experiment that failed, it was a huge success for a long time.

even in the very expensive 14 team format that was introduced in 1987, it still survived for a number of years.

in my opinion, it was all of the mucking around that killed it since the 14 team format.  superclub, summer league, no league, new rules, new rules ignored, club summer league, then franchise league.

these decision killed clubs who had invested in success and facilities, only to have the rug constantly pulled from underneath them with the forever changing formats.

club vs franchise is a moot point, because the guy who implemented the franchise league recently conducted a review of it and found it to be near perfect.  so we are stuck with it.  but i would like to see it improve

like james dean said, the standard of the regional leagues are currently making a mockery of the national league. 

I remember that old club-based national league and it certainly attracted a lot more spectators than most of the ASBP currently do. I also know that more than a few clubs were buried by the cost of being in it. All the changing of rules and format didn't help I'll conceed.

If we could I'd prefer a club-based competition with perhaps relegation and promotion. But that would require NZF making it a priority with major investment, which I can't see. I think we're stuck with the current set-up, which has survived since 2006.

i agree that we are stuck with it in all likelihood true blue, but it needs a shake.   there are big issues with the playing standard and the spectator levels.

i like the summer timing, but maybe the league could start late january to allow for transition between summer and winter for promoted and relegated teams.  something like:

ASB Prem - Jan till July, 10 teams, auto relegation for one

Chatham cup played by all teams, asb prem or regional, final the week after the conclusion of the asb prem

Regional Leagues incl promotion playoffs - Apr till Sep

This way the promoted team has time to prepare for the season and pass a quick bonded audit (no pass, no promotion), the chatham cup has more meaning, the best teams will be in the asb prem, etc etc etc.

There would however be an OCL timing problem

i like james deans' idea in principal, but what would this do for the likes of waitak and auckland city who have built awesome clubs?  i don't think they'll be too delighted about entering the regional competitions and playing the likes of manurewa until the serious stuff begins at the end of season playoffs.  i think this would only water down the standard at the top of the league, whereas we need to find a way of lifting the others up to waitak's and auckland's standard

Good points but I can't see NZF allowing any relegation/promotion. I think we're stuck with one team per city franchise (Auckland apart) and an invitation basis. However I think the criteria first laid down must be enforced - so no playing in an open field in Ngarawhatia because Waikato United are essentially broke. If a franchise can't meet the criteria then they must be replaced.

I think the January start could work and would love to see the ASBP teams in the Chatham Cup, but how would that work with feeder winter clubs essentially playing their big brother franchise partner? You couldn't have Central United playing ACFC because they share so many players. I think the cup will have to stay the big prize of the winter clubs. It was certainly a good competition last season and Central loved winning it.

The O League has to be the big focus of the top ASPB side because it's $700,000 prizemoney is vital for the "self-financed" national league. If say a NZ side didn't win the O League for two seasons in a row I think that would be the end of the ASBP. NZF has made it plain they won't invest in the competition. Waitakere's failue to win the O League in 2010 was offset to some extent by ACFC winning double prizemoney in 2009 by coming fifth at the Club World Cup and all the ASBP sides benefitted from that.

 

The scum have built an awesome club !!!!!???????.....have you even been there ???:

Promotion and relegation is essential ....otherwise you end up with clubs that dont really want to be in it , just going through the motions...

I too have huge faith in NZFs ability to F**k it u*...if it can be done theyll do it...

Not quite sure what club you're refering to - but agree half the franchises are essentially going through the motions now. However it is still giving local players the chance to step up a grade from the winter club scene.

na man, outside auckland it's a player development league
in the long run, that will bite the two teams who are actually doign the league justice

Canterbury United are only just keeping going because all junior and senior players in the Mainland federation area pay for the privilage of having an ASBP team, this is via a levy on all players each winter season.

Yes they get funding from Air Rescue and others to help out.

The only club in Christchurch that could think about going in a club based league would be Cashmere Technical [formaly Woolston Tech] due to having a tie in with direct Pokie funding via Woolston Club. 

No other club has any facilities suitable fror ASBP or if they do would have a desire to do so.

We can't get 8 clubs in the Mainland and Football South regions o get involved with a South Island League, although mainly from lack of get up and do it from the Dunedin end. That's another topic to put to the boys on the Southern blog on here.

Sides like my beloved Otago can't effectively compete in the long term, whose main aim to give players an oppurtunity to play at National level.

As for the South Is League, I've heard its the Chch who are not interested, as they don't see playing Southern clubs as worth the cost.The truth probably is cost, Dunedin/Otago/Southland struggles to fund Otago Utd/Footballsouth and local football. Unfortunately I can't see a South Is. League un less something goes.

What would be good would an extension of the Sth Is. Champs to at least home and away semis and finals. I'd also like to see the Chatham Cup open between the regions when 4 sides from each region are left.

i do pine for the old national league, but i agree with those that say that the asb prem is the way to go

but it just needs to be done properly, like it was in the early days when the standard shot up and the teams were worth watching

i have no beef with auckland and waitak.  hawkes bay, canterbury and TW are also not too far off being competitive, but the rest need a kick. 

2 extra teams would go down nicely, at least one from auckland.  this will lift the standard and add some depth and life to the league

I agree, I remember early on going to an away game at Newtown Park and there must have been over a thousand filling the stand and they made a lot of noise supporting TW. Mind you, while appreciating their ambition, it was a bit ridiculous going to watch Waikato United at Waikato stadium and finding three hundred in a 30,000 facility. We still have that with Otago United today.

I've even noticed a regular drop off at Kiwitea Street from the heady first few seasons so an injection of two new teams is most needed.

Can I ask what the expectation is that two new teams will do for the league and existing franchises

More games in the season.

my assumption is as follows...

at least one of the new teams will draw from the more populous auckland, thus sucking in more players of a greater quality than those offered by the provinces, and hence raising the standard

this assumption, in turn, assumes that auckland has a pool of good players currently not bothering to play summer football for reasons of travel, and that this pool is of a greater standard than what palmerston north or dunedin has

of course, it's just an assumption, but i think it has some logic

We should just make it an Auckland league with one or two teams from outside of Auckland. That'd be cool. 

Yeah uber-cool chicken brain.  But methinks you are just fu..in with us..or cluckin with us other roosters.

I think you're confusing me with "tegel"

Meh..poler bears don't get confuddled.

But you were takin the pluck..I can smell it.

I think greater  Auckland should definitely have four teams going on population (1.2 million).

A vibrant South Auckland side, based on the local football-supporting Fijian community, would bring in a host of new supporters. This has been evident whenever a Fijian team has played an O League game in Auckland.

Nelson has attracted a lot of interest in its ASBP youth side and has great facilities, including a decent covered stand. They have also attracted good crowds whenever Canterbury United has played there. Likewise South Auckland has the use of a good ground with a stand. This is important. A lot of people can't be bothered standing around open fields. I know several sometime ASBP spectators who won't go to Fred Taylor Paddock. Appearances are important for the atmosphere of the game.

A north Auckland franchise could play at North Harbour stadium if that was financially viable. I can't think of any other neutral North Shore ground with a decent covered stand, but perhaps there is one.

There is no way we should be basing any new franchise along ethnic lines. What will this do for NZ football? 

 

When Fijian sides play in Auckland they attract big crowds of local Fijians. The ethnic sides who play at Bill McKinley Park (once the ground of national league giant Mt Wellington) have rejuvinated a once abandoned facility. ACFC's Croatian base (drawn on Central United) keep it the best supported side in the ASBP.

So why not exploit the one shining light of football in NZ, the growing immigrant population and their attraction to the world's game? Go to Kiwitea Street on any home game and you'll hear lots of foreign accents and it's great for the game. They bring a passion and interest that inhibited Kiwi supporters don't. The vocal Croatian/Kiwi supporters of ACFC are wonderful. In most other ASBP grounds you can hear a pin drop. At Fred Taylor Paddock you'll hear a brief cheer for goals from the usual couple of hundred Westies at home games and then that's it. On a clear day you can hear JV grumbling. Only Canterbury seems to bring out any passion from their supporters. TW once did, but unfortunately that has faded as support has dwindled.

If a South Auckland side can attract a whole new group of fans, and I don't care if they're from an ethnic base, that would boost the ASBP. It desperately needs it.