Wishes for the new ASBP season

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hepatitis
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terminator_x wrote:

You're giving it a good nudge BM but you are still essentially arguing to maintain the uncompetitiveness of the league, in order for only one or two teams to mount a serious challenge for the CWC prize money, in order to support a league that is inherently uncompetitive. Doesn't that somewhat undermine the very purpose of sport? What's the point of anyone else even competing then? Do you not think that this situation maybe even contributes to the lack of interest in our national league in the rest of the country?

As I suggested before if ASBP Prem pokie funding was centralised you could easily cut it up so that the O-League participants got some extra support. You're also forgetting that the next O-League will take place in April 2014 as a one or two week tournament in one country which will reduce costs and also make qualification for the CWC much more of a lottery for the NZ sides anyway.

And I find it very funny that you are showing any concern at all for the "legality" or even morality of the current pokie funding legislation and grant distribution practices. Yes, trusts are meant to distribute their funds locally. They are also meant to do that fairly, free of any influence, and in the case of sport for strictly amateur purposes only.

Anyway, the current legislation probably does make a centralised pokie funding scheme impossible, so unfortunately this seems destined to remain a wish only.



I like egalitarian concepts, but it is just a wish from what I can see.
It is up to the national body to get the even funding basis you suggest.
This pokies money is localised, so there is little chance that NZF could their hands on it to distribute nationally, they need a different kind of sponsorship, and in todays economy, sponsorship is hard to find.
ACFC has no need to feel bad because they successfully raise a mountain of cash in their local area, and make the most of it.
We dont know what would happen result wise if another team outside the two Auckland teams won, but it is not an argument to maintain the status quo if there was a chance to change it
July 19, 2013 23:56
Bluemagic
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Whoever said football is fair. Show me any football competition that's a level playing field when it comes to funding? There are always some clubs bigger than others. It's more a case of the ASBP being seriously underfunded overall than ACFC getting too much.

July 20, 2013 04:50
Fan
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I read with interest comments criticising franchises . the current problems lie fair and squarely with NZ Football. they have failed to invest into the League .there is no exposure to the league . I do get grumpy when there is a perspective that the non Auckland franchises get criticised for not putting enough effort into funding sponsorship. Actually  they have to work harder because of the limited funding available in provincial NZ. The reality is that funders like to donate within their own regions. There are only two major funders in the Waikato for example and the same for Otago

Both Auckland and waitakere officials are very supportive of all franchises . They understand the importance of a strong national league . Instead of criticising the 2 auckland sides we need to ensure NZ  football pay respect to the league .the strength of Auckland is they have a great infrastucture to run the club and the same as Waitakere. Most other franchises are run by a small group of dedicated volunteers

July 20, 2013 07:13
Smithy
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This debate is good, and not a unique one in the world.

The same debate is being had in England, for similar reasons: in the absence of regulation, those with the deepest pockets win football competitions.

In markets with less funding available for football - notably the USA and Australia - football leagues have overcome that problem by franchising the league and regulating its finances. 

UEFA is heading the same way to address the vast imbalances in the resources available to different member nations/clubs/leagues.

In the UK, those funded by big fan bases - United, Arsenal, Newcastle etc - are leading the charge towards regulation so that they can regain the upper hand from sugar daddy clubs who have disrupted their traditional dominance. 

In New Zealand, we half-arsed it, by franchising with no financial regulation. So we've ended up with a wildly imbalanced league. 

I think a proper franchise league is the only stable option for New Zealand, where visibility is low, fan bases are small, and the league is dependent on "social funding" of some sort (in the sense that it is not a viable business) to survive.

A return to a club-based league runs the risk of the old boom-bust cycle which tore some clubs apart in the 80s/90s, and a continuation of the current light-handed model means a league stuck on repeat.

What would be really progressive, is for the clubs who are winning under the current model to embrace some financial rules for the greater good of the league. Much like Manchester United have said they will do.

July 20, 2013 08:39
terminator_x
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Jerzy Merino wrote:
terminator_x wrote:
[quote=FU BLU][quote=terminator_x][quote=Bluemagic]

The sad fact is a more egalitarian ASBP would mean a less competitive ACFC and that would cost us in the vital O League

Pretty much, because nothing ever changes.

Anyway, in this instance I only raise ACFC's heavy reliance on the Trillion Trust in the context of Bluemagic stating that "a less competitive ACFC would cost us in the vital O League", and this being a reason for not moving to a (hypothetical) centralised pokie funding model for the ASB Prem. I'm just pointing out there's a risk ACFC's pokie funding money could be reduced anyway. If you want to ignore that risk that's up to you, but I'd suggest someone at ACFC should be planning for that possibility.


Well now that's a rather provocative statement.


Why is it provacative? Things change all the time. It's just good financial management to know the risks you face and plan to mitigate them.
July 20, 2013 10:39
terminator_x
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Smithy wrote:

In New Zealand, we half-arsed it, by franchising with no financial regulation. So we've ended up with a wildly imbalanced league. 

I think a proper franchise league is the only stable option for New Zealand, where visibility is low, fan bases are small, and the league is dependent on "social funding" of some sort (in the sense that it is not a viable business) to survive.

A return to a club-based league runs the risk of the old boom-bust cycle which tore some clubs apart in the 80s/90s, and a continuation of the current light-handed model means a league stuck on repeat.

What would be really progressive, is for the clubs who are winning under the current model to embrace some financial rules for the greater good of the league. Much like Manchester United have said they will do.



Well put Smithy.

Be prepared for FU BLU to call you a whiney shit any moment now!

July 20, 2013 10:43 · Edited July 20, 2013 12:37
Smithy
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Like I said, it's as if we're stuck on repeat... ;)

July 20, 2013 11:03
Jerzy Merino
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Smithy wrote:

Like I said, it's as if we're stuck on repeat... ;)



+ 1
July 20, 2013 12:42
nightz
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+2

 

Also, I have no problem with the amount of money Auckland City can raise, whatever sources they get it from. I am concerned about how a chunck of that money is being spent in an "Amatuer League" though, and how that money could be better spent for the betterment of football in their local area.

July 20, 2013 14:02
Smithy
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nightz wrote:


+2

 

Also, I have no problem with the amount of money Auckland City can raise, whatever sources they get it from. I am concerned about how a chunck of that money is being spent in an "Amatuer League" though, and how that money could be better spent for the betterment of football in their local area.


So you're fine with them having loads of cash, as long as they don't spend it on the ASB Premiership team?
That is a pretty random notion.
July 20, 2013 15:45
Bluemagic
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Smithy wrote:

This debate is good, and not a unique one in the world.

The same debate is being had in England, for similar reasons: in the absence of regulation, those with the deepest pockets win football competitions.

In markets with less funding available for football - notably the USA and Australia - football leagues have overcome that problem by franchising the league and regulating its finances. 

UEFA is heading the same way to address the vast imbalances in the resources available to different member nations/clubs/leagues.

In the UK, those funded by big fan bases - United, Arsenal, Newcastle etc - are leading the charge towards regulation so that they can regain the upper hand from sugar daddy clubs who have disrupted their traditional dominance. 

In New Zealand, we half-arsed it, by franchising with no financial regulation. So we've ended up with a wildly imbalanced league. 

I think a proper franchise league is the only stable option for New Zealand, where visibility is low, fan bases are small, and the league is dependent on "social funding" of some sort (in the sense that it is not a viable business) to survive.

A return to a club-based league runs the risk of the old boom-bust cycle which tore some clubs apart in the 80s/90s, and a continuation of the current light-handed model means a league stuck on repeat.

What would be really progressive, is for the clubs who are winning under the current model to embrace some financial rules for the greater good of the league. Much like Manchester United have said they will do.

Good sensible analysis. Wasn't the English premier league set up in the first place so the big clubs could opt out of having to subsidize the smaller lower division clubs as once happened? It's no secret that the big clubs have prospered because people like to invest in winners while a lot of smaller regional sides have struggled.

While not wanting ACFC to have to cut back I do see the value of a more even funding playing field for all the franchises in the ASBP. Only NZF it seems can do this, but if some sort of redistribution of funding is introduced then NZF has to be prepared to dip into its own pocket to support the ASBP or find some serious sponsorship money. There would have to be some decent prizemoney offered to reward effort on the field as there's no promotion or relegation.

I appreciate that any ASBP franchise in Auckland is at a big advantage in raising funds because of the wealth of a region. I can see how praising ACFC's set up looks as if I'm looking down on the smaller franchises but I'm not. But I have also been on away games supporting ACFC when our travelling supporters have made more noise than the few hundred locals. It's not a good look. I went to early games against TW when their supporters filled the stand at Newtown Park. Now TW seem only a shadow of their former self. CU and HBU seem to be the only franchises holding up spectator interest outside Auckland. Money is only part of the equation.

Clearly a coherent, long term financial plan needs to be put in place for the ASBP and that has to come from NZF. Currently they are trying to have a national league on the cheap and show little interest in it. The fact they're using it as a training ground for the Under 20 team shows how little they regard the ASBP in its own right. It should be their number one focus, but sadly it's not.

July 21, 2013 05:32
Jeff Vader
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Interesting about the amount of fans. I went and watch u17s v Western Springs on Tuesday and there were more fans than at. National league game.

You've got some valid points there BM and I'm going to leave it at that. As Smithy said, I too can get stuck on repeat :o)

July 21, 2013 14:43
nightz
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Smithy wrote:
nightz wrote:


+2

 

Also, I have no problem with the amount of money Auckland City can raise, whatever sources they get it from. I am concerned about how a chunck of that money is being spent in an "Amatuer League" though, and how that money could be better spent for the betterment of football in their local area.


So you're fine with them having loads of cash, as long as they don't spend it on the ASB Premiership team?

That is a pretty random notion.

Stop making things up, thats not what Ive said there at all Smithy.

 

July 21, 2013 17:08
Jeff Vader
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nightz wrote:
Smithy wrote:
nightz wrote:


+2

 

Also, I have no problem with the amount of money Auckland City can raise, whatever sources they get it from. I am concerned about how a chunck of that money is being spent in an "Amatuer League" though, and how that money could be better spent for the betterment of football in their local area.


So you're fine with them having loads of cash, as long as they don't spend it on the ASB Premiership team?

That is a pretty random notion.

Stop making things up, thats not what Ive said there at all Smithy.

 

I took the same thing as Smithy as well
July 22, 2013 07:08
Smithy
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I think perhaps you literally don't know what you're talking about Nightz.

July 22, 2013 10:28
theprof
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Jeff Vader wrote:
nightz wrote:
Smithy wrote:
nightz wrote:


+2

 

Also, I have no problem with the amount of money Auckland City can raise, whatever sources they get it from. I am concerned about how a chunck of that money is being spent in an "Amatuer League" though, and how that money could be better spent for the betterment of football in their local area.


So you're fine with them having loads of cash, as long as they don't spend it on the ASB Premiership team?

That is a pretty random notion.

Stop making things up, thats not what Ive said there at all Smithy.

 

I took the same thing as Smithy as well

it's how I read it too, ACFC can have all the momey they want they just can't spend it on the top team at the club that probably generates a lot of the cash - they have to instead spend it on other teams?

July 22, 2013 16:16
Jeff Vader
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And we all know that a franchise team only has 2 teams generally. The ASBP team and the Youth team.

July 22, 2013 16:58
nightz
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Keep burying your heads in the sand

July 22, 2013 19:26
Bluemagic
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I think I see what Nightz is saying, all that money being spent on the ASBP side and the youth team at ACFC could be better spread around local teams. That however confuses the whole picture. For a start the money was raised for ACFC, not other local teams.

ACFC is a one team set-up - Central United (winter) and ACFC (ASBP). It's not a franchise drawing on support from a wide range of local teams as other franchises like WU or TW supposedly are. The reality is it usually comes down to one or two teams anyway backing a ASBP franchise - in the case of WU it's Waitakere City and for TW it's now Miramar, irrespective of what the franchise details say.

The best way ACFC can support local football is to be successful in the O league, spread the prizemoney around the ASBP (which it does) and provide a semi-professional pathway to the top for the best local players. To this end it's not doing as much as it could due to too many imports but it has still developed the likes of Sigmund, Feneridis, Milne, Hogg etc.

As I said in my original wish list, I wish ACFC would be appreciated more as a model for excellence and a well-run setup rather than sniped at as being too rich and too successful. The fact that many ASBP franchises are struggling is down to NZF incompetence and lack of interest, not ACFC success. This isn't sticking my head in the sand, this is reality.

July 23, 2013 07:02
Jeff Vader
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I don't think that no one does not appreciate the setup of ACFC. As Smithy said in his first post, it's the self felating, the ruse around paying players and that the Phoenix is bad.

Otherwise no one would have an issue.

July 23, 2013 07:34
terminator_x
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Bluemagic wrote:

As I said in my original wish list, I wish ACFC would be appreciated more as a model for excellence and a well-run setup rather than sniped at as being too rich and too successful. The fact that many ASBP franchises are struggling is down to NZF incompetence and lack of interest, not ACFC success. This isn't sticking my head in the sand, this is reality.


Can I just be clear that I am not sniping at ACFC for being "too rich and too successful". However, I do think that ACFC's financial model - if it is within the gaming trust rules - is very risky. How can it not be when gaming trusts are expressly forbidden from making any promises about future funding, for instance? Or only funding "amateur" sport? If it isn't within the rules then of course that's also risky, just a different kind of risky. And if ACFC really is propping up the rest of the league then the whole ASB Prem is just a house of cards.
As I see it the league currently faces two really key risks around funding:
1. An over-reliance on gaming trust funding. This funding is under-attack at every level - political, economic, social. This risk is massively exacerbated for the ASB Prem by the lack of a centralised approach.
2. The change in format for the O-League which means even a well-funded, well-prepared NZ representative is effectively buying a ticket in a lottery.
My wish is that the game of football can work fast, smart and collectively to find a way to put our national league on a sounder financial footing.
July 23, 2013 07:56
FU BLU
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Jeff Vader wrote:

I don't think that no one does not appreciate the setup of ACFC. As Smithy said in his first post, it's the self felating, the ruse around paying players and that the Phoenix is bad.

Otherwise no one would have an issue.

 

 

No just ask Terminwanka ...Phoenik take away attention from huge rort of pokie funding ....self felating ...hmmm ......something Ive always aspired too...rather like you chaps do when you see an aussie flag !

July 23, 2013 08:09
Chester FC
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terminator_x wrote:
Bluemagic wrote:

As I said in my original wish list, I wish ACFC would be appreciated more as a model for excellence and a well-run setup rather than sniped at as being too rich and too successful. The fact that many ASBP franchises are struggling is down to NZF incompetence and lack of interest, not ACFC success. This isn't sticking my head in the sand, this is reality.


Can I just be clear that I am not sniping at ACFC for being "too rich and too successful". However, I do think that ACFC's financial model - if it is within the gaming trust rules - is very risky. How can it not be when gaming trusts are expressly forbidden from making any promises about future funding, for instance? Or only funding "amateur" sport? If it isn't within the rules then of course that's also risky, just a different kind of risky. And if ACFC really is propping up the rest of the league then the whole ASB Prem is just a house of cards.

As I see it the league currently faces two really key risks around funding:

1. An over-reliance on gaming trust funding. This funding is under-attack at every level - political, economic, social. This risk is massively exacerbated for the ASB Prem by the lack of a centralised approach.

2. The change in format for the O-League which means even a well-funded, well-prepared NZ representative is effectively buying a ticket in a lottery.

My wish is that the game of football can work fast, smart and collectively to find a way to put our national league on a sounder financial footing.


Nothing anyone can do about O-League format.
As for point 1, Most sports are in same boat arent they?
Basketball, Football, League, Ice Hockey and probably a few other sports that have national leagues are all pretty much dependant on Grants to run there respective comps
We all wish Football was self funding with 5k+ crowds for National league games but that aint gonna happen in a country of 4 million. 


July 23, 2013 09:20
Jeff Vader
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Basketball is a professional sport in NZ because they acknowledge that players are paid. The grants they are dependant on are not from poker machine trusts so lets scratch that sport off right away.

League and Ice Hockey I would agree with you as they are amateur sports so are eligible for that funding.

 

Lets phrase this differently. What would ACFC do if Trillion said 'We know you pay your players and as a consequence, we are no longer going to fund you because we are only to be associated with amateur sports'  I can take a guess that those old deep Croatian pockets would come to the fore quickly.

Yes the national league is amateur but lets not beat around the bush, its rorted in a few places, not just ACFC. YHM and Waikato have proven that they can get their house financially in order once player payments when out the door so I ask you, what would ACFC do if the whole sport was tidied right up and it was religiously policed that no one is paid and that no money from pokie machines are given to players? I use ACFC because they bank nearly a million from the Trillion so are the biggest of all the rorters but this question applies to all franchises.

 


 

July 23, 2013 09:37
Chester FC
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Jeff Vader wrote:

Basketball is a professional sport in NZ because they acknowledge that players are paid. The grants they are dependant on are not from poker machine trusts so lets scratch that sport off right away.

League and Ice Hockey I would agree with you as they are amateur sports so are eligible for that funding.

 

Lets phrase this differently. What would ACFC do if Trillion said 'We know you pay your players and as a consequence, we are no longer going to fund you because we are only to be associated with amateur sports'  I can take a guess that those old deep Croatian pockets would come to the fore quickly.

Yes the national league is amateur but lets not beat around the bush, its rorted in a few places, not just ACFC. YHM and Waikato have proven that they can get their house financially in order once player payments when out the door so I ask you, what would ACFC do if the whole sport was tidied right up and it was religiously policed that no one is paid and that no money from pokie machines are given to players? I use ACFC because they bank nearly a million from the Trillion so are the biggest of all the rorters but this question applies to all franchises.

 


 


Several Basketball teams list community gaming trusts as sponsors or community partners on there websites. So clearly they are recieving funding from these trusts 
July 23, 2013 10:54
Frankie Mac
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Chester FC wrote:
Jeff Vader wrote:

Basketball is a professional sport in NZ because they acknowledge that players are paid. The grants they are dependant on are not from poker machine trusts so lets scratch that sport off right away.

League and Ice Hockey I would agree with you as they are amateur sports so are eligible for that funding.

 

Lets phrase this differently. What would ACFC do if Trillion said 'We know you pay your players and as a consequence, we are no longer going to fund you because we are only to be associated with amateur sports'  I can take a guess that those old deep Croatian pockets would come to the fore quickly.

Yes the national league is amateur but lets not beat around the bush, its rorted in a few places, not just ACFC. YHM and Waikato have proven that they can get their house financially in order once player payments when out the door so I ask you, what would ACFC do if the whole sport was tidied right up and it was religiously policed that no one is paid and that no money from pokie machines are given to players? I use ACFC because they bank nearly a million from the Trillion so are the biggest of all the rorters but this question applies to all franchises.

 


 


Several Basketball teams list community gaming trusts as sponsors or community partners on there websites. So clearly they are recieving funding from these trusts 

 

well done on answering the question asked.

July 23, 2013 11:46
alireggae
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Chester FC wrote:

We all wish Football was self funding with 5k+ crowds for National league games but that aint gonna happen in a country of 4 million. 



I've never bought that as an argument for poor crowds here. Scotland, with a population of about a million more than NZ regularly gets attendances of 5K+ and many more for the likes of Celtic and Rangers. Granted, football is a lot more established over there.

July 23, 2013 12:18
Big Pete 65
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Bluemagic wrote:

Here are my wishes for the upcoming summer national league...............

.............

*  Someone drags a TVNZ producer to a game.



 

TV coverage quite likely on Sommet Sports the new Freeview UHF channel (ch 14)
They have mentioned interest in broadcasting ASB Premiership.
The great thing is they will be streaming their broadcast on their website in a few weeks too (and seem to have ironed out their initial technical problems as during the A-League All Stars game).
Ask Sommet Sports on their Facebook page if they will - they reply promptly to all questions on Facebook:
They are displaying a commitment to covering Kiwi football right from the go, having broadcast the NZ v Australia Futsal series last week and this week are broadcasting live all games of the two NZ teams in the OFC Futsal Championship.
See Freeview daily TV Schedule online: http://www.freeviewnz.tv/tv-guide.aspx
It's wall-to-wall football tonight with: 

4PM LIVE: OFC Futsal Championship NZ INVITATIONAL V AUSTRALIA;

8PM LIVE: FUTSAL WHITES V SOLOMON ISLANDS

10PM LIVE: MANCHESTER UNITED V YOKOHAMA MARINOS

July 23, 2013 12:24
alireggae
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Jeff Vader wrote:


 

Lets phrase this differently. What would ACFC do if Trillion said 'We know you pay your players and as a consequence, we are no longer going to fund you because we are only to be associated with amateur sports'  I can take a guess that those old deep Croatian pockets would come to the fore quickly.



I understand that some of the Auckland players earn a living outside of football - Ivan Vicelich, Adam Dickenson, James Pritchett, Andrew Milne and Chris Bale to name a few. 


Obviously some are getting paid but could it not be put forward as an argument, that they are being paid for coaching or community work etc?

July 23, 2013 12:24
alireggae
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Big Pete 65 wrote:
Bluemagic wrote:

Here are my wishes for the upcoming summer national league...............

.............

*  Someone drags a TVNZ producer to a game.



 

TV coverage quite likely on Sommet Sports the new Freeview UHF channel (ch 14)

They have mentioned interest in broadcasting ASB Premiership.

The great thing is they will be streaming their broadcast on their website in a few weeks too (and seem to have ironed out their initial technical problems as during the A-League All Stars game).

Ask Sommet Sports on their Facebook page if they will - they reply promptly to all questions on Facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/SommetSports

They are displaying a commitment to covering Kiwi football right from the go, having broadcast the NZ v Australia Futsal series last week and this week are broadcasting live all games of the two NZ teams in the OFC Futsal Championship.

See Freeview daily TV Schedule online: http://www.freeviewnz.tv/tv-guide.aspx

It's wall-to-wall football tonight with: 

4PM LIVE: OFC Futsal Championship NZ INVITATIONAL V AUSTRALIA;

8PM LIVE: FUTSAL WHITES V SOLOMON ISLANDS

10PM LIVE: MANCHESTER UNITED V YOKOHAMA MARINOS


As a tightarse Scotsman, I'm loving Sommet Sports
July 23, 2013 12:26
terminator_x
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alireggae wrote:
Jeff Vader wrote:

 

Lets phrase this differently. What would ACFC do if Trillion said 'We know you pay your players and as a consequence, we are no longer going to fund you because we are only to be associated with amateur sports'  I can take a guess that those old deep Croatian pockets would come to the fore quickly.



I understand that some of the Auckland players earn a living outside of football - Ivan Vicelich, Adam Dickenson, James Pritchett, Andrew Milne and Chris Bale to name a few. 


Obviously some are getting paid but could it not be put forward as an argument, that they are being paid for coaching or community work etc?



Exactly. They cannot be paid to play football, so they have to be paid to do something else i.e. coaching. And even then, if their payments for coaching are tied to any kind of obligation to also play for ACFC then that's technically outside the rules. It surprises me that not all ACFC supporters seem to clearly understand this. Bluemagic actually describes ACFC as being "semi-professional" above, which should be a complete no-no (and yes, other franchises are doing the same thing, but clearly on a lesser scale).

I'm not privy to the inner-workings of ACFC so I'm happy to accept that everything is legit, but if I was an ACFC supporter I'd be very interested to know from the Board exactly what the pokie funding received is for, and whether that creates any risks for the club. After all, as has been pointed out already, anything that is a risk to ACFC is also a risk to the whole ASB Prem because a) ACFC is currently the club consistently pulling in the CWC prize money and b) most other franchises will be doing the same thing around pokie money and player payments.

July 23, 2013 13:35
Big Pete 65
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alireggae wrote:
Big Pete 65 wrote:




 

[/quote]


See Freeview daily TV Schedule online: http://www.freeviewnz.tv/tv-guide.aspx

It's wall-to-wall football tonight with: 

4PM LIVE: OFC Futsal Championship NZ INVITATIONAL V AUSTRALIA;

8PM LIVE: FUTSAL WHITES V SOLOMON ISLANDS

10PM LIVE: MANCHESTER UNITED V YOKOHAMA MARINOS


As a tightarse Scotsman, I'm loving Sommet Sports

You'll be falling on the floor in ecstasy then when they broadcast Scotland v England next month!!!
Sommet Sports - August

14 - England v Scotland
July 23, 2013 15:16
alireggae
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over 13 years
Big Pete 65 wrote:
alireggae wrote:
Big Pete 65 wrote:




 

[/quote]


See Freeview daily TV Schedule online: http://www.freeviewnz.tv/tv-guide.aspx

It's wall-to-wall football tonight with: 

4PM LIVE: OFC Futsal Championship NZ INVITATIONAL V AUSTRALIA;

8PM LIVE: FUTSAL WHITES V SOLOMON ISLANDS

10PM LIVE: MANCHESTER UNITED V YOKOHAMA MARINOS


As a tightarse Scotsman, I'm loving Sommet Sports

You'll be falling on the floor in ecstasy then when they broadcast Scotland v England next month!!!

Sommet Sports - August

14 - England v Scotland


Wow!!!! 
July 23, 2013 15:32
Bluemagic
Blue Cod
93
·
760
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over 14 years
Big Pete 65 wrote:
Bluemagic wrote:

Here are my wishes for the upcoming summer national league...............

.............

*  Someone drags a TVNZ producer to a game.



 

TV coverage quite likely on Sommet Sports the new Freeview UHF channel (ch 14)

They have mentioned interest in broadcasting ASB Premiership.

The great thing is they will be streaming their broadcast on their website in a few weeks too (and seem to have ironed out their initial technical problems as during the A-League All Stars game).

Ask Sommet Sports on their Facebook page if they will - they reply promptly to all questions on Facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/SommetSports

They are displaying a commitment to covering Kiwi football right from the go, having broadcast the NZ v Australia Futsal series last week and this week are broadcasting live all games of the two NZ teams in the OFC Futsal Championship.

See Freeview daily TV Schedule online: http://www.freeviewnz.tv/tv-guide.aspx

It's wall-to-wall football tonight with: 

4PM LIVE: OFC Futsal Championship NZ INVITATIONAL V AUSTRALIA;

8PM LIVE: FUTSAL WHITES V SOLOMON ISLANDS

10PM LIVE: MANCHESTER UNITED V YOKOHAMA MARINOS

Good on Sommet Sports, will follow with interest. Hope they do follow up their interest in broadcasting ASBP games.

July 24, 2013 05:05
Smithy
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Stage Punch
2.1K
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11K
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about 17 years
Bluemagic wrote:

I think I see what Nightz is saying, all that money being spent on the ASBP side and the youth team at ACFC could be better spread around local teams. That however confuses the whole picture. For a start the money was raised for ACFC, not other local teams.[/quote]

I don't think even Nightz knows what he's saying, but good on you for having a crack. If that is what he's saying, then it's dopey. Better to focus resources on the good players than spray them around winter clubs more widely. 

Bluemagic wrote:

ACFC is a one team set-up - Central United (winter) and ACFC (ASBP). It's not a franchise drawing on support from a wide range of local teams as other franchises like WU or TW supposedly are. The reality is it usually comes down to one or two teams anyway backing a ASBP franchise - in the case of WU it's Waitakere City and for TW it's now Miramar, irrespective of what the franchise details say.[/quote]

This isn't an accurate characterisation of TW any more. TW is TW, it's run by mostly the same folks who run Miramar. Broadly similar to the relationship between Central and ACFC as far as I understand it.

Bluemagic wrote:

The best way ACFC can support local football is to be successful in the O league, spread the prizemoney around the ASBP (which it does) and provide a semi-professional pathway to the top for the best local players. To this end it's not doing as much as it could due to too many imports but it has still developed the likes of Sigmund, Feneridis, Milne, Hogg etc.

I think this is all true. I think ACFC are also pretty vocal behind the scenes trying to improve the league.

[quote=Bluemagic]

As I said in my original wish list, I wish ACFC would be appreciated more as a model for excellence and a well-run setup rather than sniped at as being too rich and too successful.

Get your hand off it. We would all like more appreciation for the work we do.

[quote=Bluemagic]

The fact that many ASBP franchises are struggling is down to NZF incompetence and lack of interest, not ACFC success. This isn't sticking my head in the sand, this is reality.


I think there is an element of truth in this. ACFC success isn't the problem, but problem (imbalanced revenue) has made the league too easy for ACFC. You can't blame them for being successful. But it isn't necessarily good for anyone (including them) if it continues this way.


Edit - so, nesting quotes doesn't work. Fail.

July 24, 2013 08:14 · Edited July 24, 2013 08:15
Smithy
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Stage Punch
2.1K
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11K
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about 17 years
terminator_x wrote:
Bluemagic wrote:

As I said in my original wish list, I wish ACFC would be appreciated more as a model for excellence and a well-run setup rather than sniped at as being too rich and too successful. The fact that many ASBP franchises are struggling is down to NZF incompetence and lack of interest, not ACFC success. This isn't sticking my head in the sand, this is reality.


Can I just be clear that I am not sniping at ACFC for being "too rich and too successful". However, I do think that ACFC's financial model - if it is within the gaming trust rules - is very risky. How can it not be when gaming trusts are expressly forbidden from making any promises about future funding, for instance? Or only funding "amateur" sport? If it isn't within the rules then of course that's also risky, just a different kind of risky. And if ACFC really is propping up the rest of the league then the whole ASB Prem is just a house of cards.

As I see it the league currently faces two really key risks around funding:

1. An over-reliance on gaming trust funding. This funding is under-attack at every level - political, economic, social. This risk is massively exacerbated for the ASB Prem by the lack of a centralised approach.

2. The change in format for the O-League which means even a well-funded, well-prepared NZ representative is effectively buying a ticket in a lottery.

My wish is that the game of football can work fast, smart and collectively to find a way to put our national league on a sounder financial footing.


Term, you know usually I agree with you, but I think you're over-egging your mayo here.

All sports in New Zealand, ALL OF THEM, rely on gaming machine funding. It is the model for funding that the government used to replace liquor and tobacco sponsorship.

Some, including me, would say that it's even more odious than those because it heavily impacts a small, and generally poor, segment of the community. Drawing funds from them to prop up sports for the rest of us. It's pretty dirty business.

But, far from being under attack at every level, it's actually pretty stable. It went through a bit of a clean up at the hands of the DIA in the 2000s, and now it's more centralised than it was. Payouts are pretty stable, and football has got smarter about getting its share. I believe there is still a sinking lid policy - when a venue closes, its machines get removed from the regional total - but that hasn't had a significant effect.

The government has just agreed to let Sky City have a whole bunch more machines in Auckland.

ACFC aren't doing anything that pretty much every other club isn't doing. They're just doing it on a bigger scale. It's not mysterious, or particularly dodgy.
July 24, 2013 08:29
Jeff Vader
Cock
2.7K
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16K
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about 15 years

I don't think the accusation is that its mysterious or dodgy at all.

I think its that they pay players when they are not meant to. When you put it on a larger scale, it becomes more susceptible to be picked up.

July 24, 2013 09:21 · Edited July 24, 2013 09:27
terminator_x
·
Still Believin'
750
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5.7K
·
over 17 years
Smithy wrote:

Term, you know usually I agree with you, but I think you're over-egging your mayo here.


All sports in New Zealand, ALL OF THEM, rely on gaming machine funding. It is the model for funding that the government used to replace liquor and tobacco sponsorship.


Some, including me, would say that it's even more odious than those because it heavily impacts a small, and generally poor, segment of the community. Drawing funds from them to prop up sports for the rest of us. It's pretty dirty business.


But, far from being under attack at every level, it's actually pretty stable. It went through a bit of a clean up at the hands of the DIA in the 2000s, and now it's more centralised than it was. Payouts are pretty stable, and football has got smarter about getting its share. I believe there is still a sinking lid policy - when a venue closes, its machines get removed from the regional total - but that hasn't had a significant effect.


The government has just agreed to let Sky City have a whole bunch more machines in Auckland.


ACFC aren't doing anything that pretty much every other club isn't doing. They're just doing it on a bigger scale. It's not mysterious, or particularly dodgy.



Good comments Smithy. Admittedly its a very subjective debate.

The fact that all sports are in the same position re: trust funding isn't really relevant to me, it just means all sports are facing the same sorts of risks.

Although I agree that things are now on a more stable level I don't think we can afford to be complacent about the level of risk. For instance, there was Te Ururoa Flavell's Gambling Harm Reduction Bill, which didn't achieve nearly what it set out to, but did create a good public debate and will definitely not be the last time the legislation is reviewed. There is also this recent DIA investigation where the Dept specifically stated "The wider community is disadvantaged if one group can gain preferential access to grant funding from gambling proceeds".

Remember that my original wish was simply that it would be cool if we could find a way to centralise the gaming funding coming into the ASB Prem to create more transparency, consistency and certainty, reduce admin and expenses, and create a more competitive league. The response from some was that this would be a bad thing because it would reduce ACFC's competitiveness, thereby reducing their chances of winning the O-League, thereby reducing everybody's funding.

I just think that:
a) that's a really poor set of policy principles to have as a starting point for a funding model for our national league.
b) that still leaves us all exposed to some serious risks around funding. The most obvious is that the Trillion Trust, completely of their own accord, decide that they are not going to fund ACFC to the same levels as before (circa $500k per annum, $700k incl Central Utd).

And I'm sorry if folks from ACFC think I'm picking on them but you can't have your cake and eat it. If we accept the argument that ACFC are propping up the whole league then that also means that ACFC's financials (and any risks around them) are of real interest, simply because of their scale and importance.

July 24, 2013 11:18
Jerzy Merino
Marquee
970
·
6.5K
·
over 11 years


Re the above, don't think that ACFC don't do anything at levels below and beyond the ASB & FIFA World Club Cup to justify their income.

The inaugural ACFC Under-17 Auckland tourney attracted boys teams from 22 different clubs nationwide, girls teams from 12 different clubs ditto, and took considerable organising not to mention effort from club members manning food stalls, etc. Astonishingly - and beyond NZF's ability apparently, they were also able to get 1 hour Sky coverage for same, which must have been a blast for all the kids, their coaches and parents across the country (see ACFC Under-17 tourney thread on this site). Next year it's hoped the tourney will expand to include players from Oz and the islands.

Also, they are donating kit, balls etc. to youngsters in the islands.

Also, in their 9 years of existence, from the 126 players that have worn the shirt ACFC have contributed 11 full All Whites plus another 18 players who have made national youth teams (see 'The numbers game' at www.aucklandcityfc.com )  

I for one take my hat off to them.

But I'd still like to see Southern Utd playing samba soccer under their new Brazilian coach as the winners of next years ASB.

July 24, 2013 13:32
Smithy
·
Stage Punch
2.1K
·
11K
·
about 17 years
terminator_x wrote:
Smithy wrote:

Term, you know usually I agree with you, but I think you're over-egging your mayo here.


All sports in New Zealand, ALL OF THEM, rely on gaming machine funding. It is the model for funding that the government used to replace liquor and tobacco sponsorship.


Some, including me, would say that it's even more odious than those because it heavily impacts a small, and generally poor, segment of the community. Drawing funds from them to prop up sports for the rest of us. It's pretty dirty business.


But, far from being under attack at every level, it's actually pretty stable. It went through a bit of a clean up at the hands of the DIA in the 2000s, and now it's more centralised than it was. Payouts are pretty stable, and football has got smarter about getting its share. I believe there is still a sinking lid policy - when a venue closes, its machines get removed from the regional total - but that hasn't had a significant effect.


The government has just agreed to let Sky City have a whole bunch more machines in Auckland.


ACFC aren't doing anything that pretty much every other club isn't doing. They're just doing it on a bigger scale. It's not mysterious, or particularly dodgy.



Good comments Smithy. Admittedly its a very subjective debate.

The fact that all sports are in the same position re: trust funding isn't really relevant to me, it just means all sports are facing the same sorts of risks.

Although I agree that things are now on a more stable level I don't think we can afford to be complacent about the level of risk. For instance, there was Te Ururoa Flavell's Gambling Harm Reduction Bill, which didn't achieve nearly what it set out to, but did create a good public debate and will definitely not be the last time the legislation is reviewed. There is also this recent DIA investigation where the Dept specifically stated "The wider community is disadvantaged if one group can gain preferential access to grant funding from gambling proceeds".

Remember that my original wish was simply that it would be cool if we could find a way to centralise the gaming funding coming into the ASB Prem to create more transparency, consistency and certainty, reduce admin and expenses, and create a more competitive league. The response from some was that this would be a bad thing because it would reduce ACFC's competitiveness, thereby reducing their chances of winning the O-League, thereby reducing everybody's funding.

I just think that:
a) that's a really poor set of policy principles to have as a starting point for a funding model for our national league.
b) that still leaves us all exposed to some serious risks around funding. The most obvious is that the Trillion Trust, completely of their own accord, decide that they are not going to fund ACFC to the same levels as before (circa $500k per annum, $700k incl Central Utd).

And I'm sorry if folks from ACFC think I'm picking on them but you can't have your cake and eat it. If we accept the argument that ACFC are propping up the whole league then that also means that ACFC's financials (and any risks around them) are of real interest, simply because of their scale and importance.


That's a much more moderate version of what you originally posted, and I agree with most of it.

The fact that all sports are in the same boat does cause a substantive reduction in risk, because it increases the potential political outcry if the apple cart gets upset.

I like the idea of centralised funding, but the acid then comes on NZF to administer it well and that is something it hasn't exactly earned its stripes in over the years.

July 24, 2013 13:33
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