We absolutely need to bring in youth players. There are different strategies to try and win the a-league and CCM did it effectively based on their youth set up. It would be great to get a couple of marquee players but the owners are not going to go that route. But even if we had two more top players, and more existing funds freed up because of it, a youth set up would still be an advantage (although not such a necessity.) I do hope they can get more organised with it and provide some decent game time, because without that it is almost pointless and not going to work.
Contracted Players - Return of the Long Pins
What would be wrong with Alex Rufer and Matt Ridenton playing week in and week out in the ASB Premiership? Why can't they develop there?
Note: just using those two as examples...take your pick of the youth players.
I think it's a failing of trying to run a football club like a regular business - trying to cut costs at every opportunity because the club is losing money. I know a few of us have always had concerns with Welnix's stated goal of making the club break even, because frankly there's pretty much no chance of it ever happening and focusing on it as a goal is just going to erode the club slowly. Signing kids is dirt cheap, and if you get lucky one will be a gem and you can sell him on for a bit of coin. But it's incredibly hard to win without some maturity and experience in the squad too. And losing games with no name kids isn't going to bring the punters in.
Yes football is a business and people make a lot of money off it but those people aren't the club owners, they're elite players and agents, marketers, media companies, etc.
Another example is the traveling roadshow matches - Welnix trying to save money but not considering how that is disengaging the Wellington public, so home crowds get smaller so they threaten to take more games on the road. It might seem to them that they are making back some of the money they are losing but what they are also doing is ruining the soul of the club. Not to mention placing an extra burden on the team by adding more travel and removing some of the homeground advantage.
I actually think you're right, but in fact it just shows that football is EXACTLY like most other businesses.
If you a) cut costs and b) disengage from your market then you end up a) sucking and b) having less market...
What would be wrong with Alex Rufer and Matt Ridenton playing week in and week out in the ASB Premiership? Why can't they develop there?
Note: just using those two as examples...take your pick of the youth players.
Because it isn't full time. They need to be playing in that league (as a Phoenix reserve team) but they need to be training all year or their development will be stunted.
I heard Timmins may have been offered a contract but isn't really that keen. What does that say?
What would be wrong with Alex Rufer and Matt Ridenton playing week in and week out in the ASB Premiership? Why can't they develop there?
Note: just using those two as examples...take your pick of the youth players.
Because it isn't full time. They need to be playing in that league (as a Phoenix reserve team) but they need to be training all year or their development will be stunted.
What a load of utter bollocks.
But, also off topic.
Back to Timmins. If he's not keen then I'm sure we can make do with one of the other half dozen average wide defenders we've got hanging around.
I heard Timmins may have been offered a contract but isn't really that keen. What does that say?
Compare him to Riera/Sigmund/Rojas - all of whom did a solid apprenticeship in the ASB Premiership and all of whom were effective from the get go.
Disagree with this. Siggy took at least a season to get up to a-league speed, Rojas also spent a season on the sidelines before getting a chance, and even Riera didn't look that flash (though showed potential) until about 6 or 7 games into this season. So the idea that seasoned ASB players will slot straight in from the get go is a bit of a stretch IMO.
Also disagree with you on Boxall. I think he has shown me enough in his time at RB to convince me that his skill-set (size, strength, pace, passing ability) can make him a more than adequate a-league CB next season, given an off-season to work on his positioning, which does need work but I back Ernie to teach him. He obviously has the ability to learn this as he got better and better at RB in his time there (again IMO). You may disagree which is fine.
Point being that I think there is a huge difference between giving some time to someone like Boxall who I think has the goods, but needs some time in the spot to adjust (e.g. Boxall & Siggy, Riera when they started), to the kids who given some game time over a few seasons may eventually develop into a decent player (e.g. Ridenton, Adams, Rufer, Hicks, Boyd last season, etc etc) who we have too many of at present.
Compare him to Riera/Sigmund/Rojas - all of whom did a solid apprenticeship in the ASB Premiership and all of whom were effective from the get go.
Disagree with this. Siggy took at least a season to get up to a-league speed, Rojas also spent a season on the sidelines before getting a chance, and even Riera didn't look that flash (though showed potential) until about 6 or 7 games into this season. So the idea that seasoned ASB players will slot straight in from the get go is a bit of a stretch IMO.
Also disagree with you on Boxall. I think he has shown me enough in his time at RB to convince me that his skill-set (size, strength, pace, passing ability) can make him a more than adequate a-league CB next season, given an off-season to work on his positioning, which does need work but I back Ernie to teach him. He obviously has the ability to learn this as he got better and better at RB in his time there (again IMO). You may disagree which is fine.
Point being that I think there is a huge difference between giving some time to someone like Boxall who I think has the goods, but needs some time in the spot to adjust (e.g. Boxall & Siggy, Riera when they started), to the kids who given some game time over a few seasons may eventually develop into a decent player (e.g. Ridenton, Adams, Rufer, Hicks, Boyd last season, etc etc) who we have too many of at present.
Yep fair points. I agree.
I don't think you're actually disagreeing with me though - there is still a clear difference between the guys who played plenty of ASB Premiership and were ready (or ![]()
almost ready) for the A-League and the kids who didn't and aren't.
We have too many of the kids who aren't ready.
We have too many of them because the owners want to spend less money.
I heard Timmins may have been offered a contract but isn't really that keen. What does that say?
The minimum wage in the A-league isn't that much.
Every year we have to have 3 youth players. Tyler Boyd would be one of them regardless, and has proven he is A-League quality.
In an ideal world we would have a youth team where they compete in the NYL or ASB Premiership. With the amount of injuries we had there was a point where Matthew Ridenton was going to have to play.
Every year we have to have 3 youth players. Tyler Boyd would be one of them regardless, and has proven he is A-League quality.
In an ideal world we would have a youth team where they compete in the NYL or ASB Premiership. With the amount of injuries we had there was a point where Matthew Ridenton was going to have to play.
Boyd looks promising, but has scored 2 goals in 40 games, and missed a shitload that he should have scored. So I'm not getting carried away.
No other A-League team would be interested in him if he was on the market today. So is he "proven A-League quality"? I dunno about that. He's proven Phoenix quality, but that is exactly my beef. Our standards are that low.
I get the sense that there's going to be much wailing and gnashing of teeth on these forums in the next few months
What would be wrong with Alex Rufer and Matt Ridenton playing week in and week out in the ASB Premiership? Why can't they develop there?
Note: just using those two as examples...take your pick of the youth players.
Because it isn't full time. They need to be playing in that league (as a Phoenix reserve team) but they need to be training all year or their development will be stunted.
What a load of utter bollocks.
But, also off topic.
So you think a player will develop as much in an amateur environment training a couple of times a week with fewer and (hypothetically) less well trained coaches? And you think a suggestion to the contrary is bollocks? Well back at ya. Every professional team in the world has a youth strategy.
And how is it off topic?
Every year we have to have 3 youth players. Tyler Boyd would be one of them regardless, and has proven he is A-League quality.
I would disagree that Boyd has proven himself as A League quality. I think it is fair to say he has proven he has potential and has shown some improvement from last year but he is a long way from being a proven performer. What other teams would he have made 40 appearances for in the League at this stage of his Career? My answer to that would be none.
EDIT: Smithy has basically beaten me to it!
Compare him to Riera/Sigmund/Rojas - all of whom did a solid apprenticeship in the ASB Premiership and all of whom were effective from the get go.
Disagree with this. Siggy took at least a season to get up to a-league speed, Rojas also spent a season on the sidelines before getting a chance, and even Riera didn't look that flash (though showed potential) until about 6 or 7 games into this season. So the idea that seasoned ASB players will slot straight in from the get go is a bit of a stretch IMO.
Also disagree with you on Boxall. I think he has shown me enough in his time at RB to convince me that his skill-set (size, strength, pace, passing ability) can make him a more than adequate a-league CB next season, given an off-season to work on his positioning, which does need work but I back Ernie to teach him. He obviously has the ability to learn this as he got better and better at RB in his time there (again IMO). You may disagree which is fine.
Point being that I think there is a huge difference between giving some time to someone like Boxall who I think has the goods, but needs some time in the spot to adjust (e.g. Boxall & Siggy, Riera when they started), to the kids who given some game time over a few seasons may eventually develop into a decent player (e.g. Ridenton, Adams, Rufer, Hicks, Boyd last season, etc etc) who we have too many of at present.
Yep fair points. I agree.
I don't think you're actually disagreeing with me though - there is still a clear difference between the guys who played plenty of ASB Premiership and were ready (or almost ready) for the A-League and the kids who didn't and aren't.
We have too many of the kids who aren't ready.
We have too many of them because the owners want to spend less money.
100% with you on that. I think it would be great for Ridenton & Rufer especially to play a season of ASBP.
But what other club is going to sign Tyler Boyd as an import?
But what other club is going to sign Tyler Boyd as an import?
All the best for Leo, always gave his all for us and a great club man. Hope he picks up a pro gig in Thailand or some where similar for his last couple of years of football
I fully expect to see Leo sign with a club in the MLS now.
Doubt it; MLS > A-League in terms of quality
Doubt it; MLS > A-League in terms of quality
They took Lochhead, they'll take anyone.
All the best for Leo, always gave his all for us and a great club man. Hope he picks up a pro gig in Thailand or some where similar for his last couple of years of football
I fully expect to see Leo sign with a club in the MLS now.
Doubt it; MLS > A-League in terms of quality
Unless it's Chivas?
But what other club is going to sign Tyler Boyd as an import?
Even if you removed the fact he would be an import, what other club would have him based on their current squads?
All the best for Leo, always gave his all for us and a great club man. Hope he picks up a pro gig in Thailand or some where similar for his last couple of years of football
I fully expect to see Leo sign with a club in the MLS now.
Doubt it; MLS > A-League in terms of quality
Unless it's Chivas?
Even Chivas has stepped up their game this season apparently. Lochy wont play for them again.
What would be wrong with Alex Rufer and Matt Ridenton playing week in and week out in the ASB Premiership? Why can't they develop there?
Note: just using those two as examples...take your pick of the youth players.
Because it isn't full time. They need to be playing in that league (as a Phoenix reserve team) but they need to be training all year or their development will be stunted.
What a load of utter bollocks.
But, also off topic.
So you think a player will develop as much in an amateur environment training a couple of times a week with fewer and (hypothetically) less well trained coaches? And you think a suggestion to the contrary is bollocks? Well back at ya. Every professional team in the world has a youth strategy.
And how is it off topic?
This topic is about contracted players. Not youth development.
There's no doubt that full time training is better than occasional training. There is also no doubt that playing competitive matches (in the ASB Premiership) is better than not playing matches at all (Alex Rufer, Luke Adams etc). There is absolutely no reason why players need to be contracted to the Phoenix to develop into A-League players.
The Phoenix have no youth league team. They tried, and failed, to partner with Team Wellington. So maybe they should concentrate on signing players who are actually capable of playing, and succeeding, in the A-League instead of this youth development cop out which is really just an excuse to sign players who aren't (yet) good enough.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that we're required to have 3 youth players in our squad..
You seem to be ignoring the fact that we're required to have 3 youth players in our squad..
Nope - not ignoring the fact. But my point is independent of that.
We should sign good established players. That is all I want. Plz god.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that we're required to have 3 youth players in our squad..
Nope - not ignoring the fact. But my point is independent of that.
We should sign good established players. That is all I want. Plz god.
I've been saying from the start that signing rejects that no other a-league club wants isn't the answer - unfortunately a lot of the time that's all we can get.
No matter what money we can or can't throw at players (under the salary cap) - Wellington simply isn't as attractive to most Australian players - and a lot of kiwi players, it seems - as basically anywhere else in the league.
I think it's a failing of trying to run a football club like a regular business - trying to cut costs at every opportunity because the club is losing money. I know a few of us have always had concerns with Welnix's stated goal of making the club break even, because frankly there's pretty much no chance of it ever happening and focusing on it as a goal is just going to erode the club slowly. Signing kids is dirt cheap, and if you get lucky one will be a gem and you can sell him on for a bit of coin. But it's incredibly hard to win without some maturity and experience in the squad too. And losing games with no name kids isn't going to bring the punters in.
Yes football is a business and people make a lot of money off it but those people aren't the club owners, they're elite players and agents, marketers, media companies, etc.
Another example is the traveling roadshow matches - Welnix trying to save money but not considering how that is disengaging the Wellington public, so home crowds get smaller so they threaten to take more games on the road. It might seem to them that they are making back some of the money they are losing but what they are also doing is ruining the soul of the club. Not to mention placing an extra burden on the team by adding more travel and removing some of the homeground advantage.
Bring back Terry.
Phil Keinzley. Not on the NBR Rich List - but neither is GM.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that we're required to have 3 youth players in our squad..
Nope - not ignoring the fact. But my point is independent of that.
We should sign good established players. That is all I want. Plz god.
I've been saying from the start that signing rejects that no other a-league club wants isn't the answer - unfortunately a lot of the time that's all we can get.
No matter what money we can or can't throw at players (under the salary cap) - Wellington simply isn't as attractive to most Australian players - and a lot of kiwi players, it seems - as basically anywhere else in the league.
That's why the only hope we have is to sign up young kiwi kids who don't know any better and hope two or three make the grade, it's the only thing that makes sense, wait a minute.....
You seem to be ignoring the fact that we're required to have 3 youth players in our squad..
Nope - not ignoring the fact. But my point is independent of that.
We should sign good established players. That is all I want. Plz god.
I've been saying from the start that signing rejects that no other a-league club wants isn't the answer - unfortunately a lot of the time that's all we can get.
No matter what money we can or can't throw at players (under the salary cap) - Wellington simply isn't as attractive to most Australian players - and a lot of kiwi players, it seems - as basically anywhere else in the league.
That's why the only hope we have is to sign up young kiwi kids who don't know any better and hope two or three make the grade, it's the only thing that makes sense, wait a minute.....
My head almost angstploded then. Then I realised what you were saying :)
Whew.
Maybe the solution is just to target one player that we pay over the money for, but lock him in for three years.
I think it's a failing of trying to run a football club like a regular business - trying to cut costs at every opportunity because the club is losing money. I know a few of us have always had concerns with Welnix's stated goal of making the club break even, because frankly there's pretty much no chance of it ever happening and focusing on it as a goal is just going to erode the club slowly. Signing kids is dirt cheap, and if you get lucky one will be a gem and you can sell him on for a bit of coin. But it's incredibly hard to win without some maturity and experience in the squad too. And losing games with no name kids isn't going to bring the punters in.
Yes football is a business and people make a lot of money off it but those people aren't the club owners, they're elite players and agents, marketers, media companies, etc.
Another example is the traveling roadshow matches - Welnix trying to save money but not considering how that is disengaging the Wellington public, so home crowds get smaller so they threaten to take more games on the road. It might seem to them that they are making back some of the money they are losing but what they are also doing is ruining the soul of the club. Not to mention placing an extra burden on the team by adding more travel and removing some of the homeground advantage.
I don't think the issue is "people in Wellington getting pissed off at games in Dorkland / Former Marineland and boycotting", it's more like "if there were games EVERY second weekend at Westpac, many more people would get into the habit of regular attendance / buy season tickets".
I don't think the issue is "people in Wellington getting pissed off at games in Dorkland / Former Marineland and boycotting", it's more like "if there were games EVERY second weekend at Westpac, many more people would get into the habit of regular attendance / buy season tickets".
Totes agree. But also think that when we're not winning the effect is negligible.
Also: off topic.
But what other club is going to sign Tyler Boyd as an import?
Even if you removed the fact he would be an import, what other club would have him based on their current squads?
Better than Chianese, Harold, Mallia, maybe Appiah, Golgol, Kwasnik, Minniecon and a lot of other average players.
He is probably at least as good as Kosta was at the same age.
But what other club is going to sign Tyler Boyd as an import?
Even if you removed the fact he would be an import, what other club would have him based on their current squads?
Better than Chianese, Harold, Mallia, maybe Appiah, Golgol, Kwasnik, Minniecon and a lot of other average players.
He is probably at least as good as Kosta was at the same age.
And this is another point too - aside from the starters; every other A-League squad has pretty average back-up options. The reason these back-up options do better is because they regularly play football in the NYL.
Am I the only one who thinks Michael Boxall is a better right back and can certainly do a job there at A-League level?
While Fenton is on the mend, yes. Still developing but no point in replacing him with an import as we have no visa spots for another defender.
However, Boxall may be a useful future CB anyway, so let's think about the future. I for one am happy to have him.
But what other club is going to sign Tyler Boyd as an import?
Even if you removed the fact he would be an import, what other club would have him based on their current squads?
Better than Chianese, Harold, Mallia, maybe Appiah, Golgol, Kwasnik, Minniecon and a lot of other average players.
He is probably at least as good as Kosta was at the same age.
And this is another point too - aside from the starters; every other A-League squad has pretty average back-up options. The reason these back-up options do better is because they regularly play football in the NYL.
Really? Or perhaps just better players
But what other club is going to sign Tyler Boyd as an import?
Even if you removed the fact he would be an import, what other club would have him based on their current squads?
Better than Chianese, Harold, Mallia, maybe Appiah, Golgol, Kwasnik, Minniecon and a lot of other average players.
He is probably at least as good as Kosta was at the same age.
And this is another point too - aside from the starters; every other A-League squad has pretty average back-up options. The reason these back-up options do better is because they regularly play football in the NYL.
Really? Or perhaps just better players
If Ernie rotates squad regularly then that may be a goer - even 'better' players need to play real, decent games. Otherwise our promising players won't become "better" players for a while, and may end up 'developing' in other teams, like Kosta or Rojas.
cant believe this 'who would get into another top 4 side' test.
Start of last season, you could say that about 90% of the Wanderers squad.
Covic, Beauchamp, Topor-Stanley, D'Appuzzo, Cole, Bridge, Haliti etc were all 'rejects' from other clubs. Yet they won the league. It's not about the players, its about the system.
Would you take any of those players into the nix? I personally wouldn't - maybe NTS? But the point is that this 'top 4 player' is a pretty rubbish concept.
cant believe this 'who would get into another top 4 side' test.
Start of last season, you could say that about 90% of the Wanderers squad.
Covic, Beauchamp, Topor-Stanley, D'Appuzzo, Cole, Bridge, Haliti etc were all 'rejects' from other clubs. Yet they won the league. It's not about the players, its about the system.
Would you take any of those players into the nix? I personally wouldn't - maybe NTS? But the point is that this 'top 4 player' is a pretty rubbish concept.