All Whites v Qatar | Tues 20th June | 4:00am

I back the team for there actions. But I'm not expecting anything out of Fifa. Probably a fine to NZF.
But if anything it will raise the question for them. How do we properly deal with this issue. Can they realistically expect referees to deal with it and how do they now stop other teams abandoning games.
I thought this article was a sad read, but lots of home truths there. 
https://nominister.wordpress.com/2023/06/21/petulant-brats-or-innocent-victims-of-racism/
An open mic on the ref and post games being able to ban players that back chat the ref could be a start, then once refs get better respect then maybe they will be bolder in calls against racist slurs that they hear as they will have proof. And it won't turn into a he said she said as in this scenario. 

Tories? This is an NZ forum, we aren't English 

imanixsupporter

Tories? This is an NZ forum, we aren't English 

Don't need to be English to be a Tory. It's a political ideology that people resonate with, irrespective of nationality. 

Sure most of of the outspoken "anti-woke" posters here seem to be expat Brits anyway :D

Buffon II

imanixsupporter

Tories? This is an NZ forum, we aren't English 

Don't need to be English to be a Tory. It's a political ideology that people resonate with, irrespective of nationality. 

its not language that we tend to use to describe it though.

Would you like to be sent to jail based on what people saw as a reaction to you, rather than what you actually did?

Here is something that happened a few short years ago where Steven Adams in an aftermatch press conference referred to a team as “running around like monkeys”. Uproar and it was explained that his comment was not a racist one in NZ and in this context certainly not racist. Adams immediately apologised, everyone understood and moved on. Many of you might not even know it happened - it received a lot of coverage on the US networks when it happened.

I reiterate, there is no place for racism anywhere, and whether or not we believe there was in this case (and I suspect there probably was) FIFA (if they actually make the right decision at all) will base that on what was actually said. It is a basic rule of law.

Ryan

Monto

reg22

The lack of enlightened minds in this thread is concerning. Hopefully not a true reflection of the Phoenix fan base.

Someone doesn't immediately jump on a band wagon and wants to see more evidence = unenlightened.

if it's one persons opinion versus another maybe, but the reaction from everyone that heard it was pretty blatant. Surely the amount of witnesses is all the evidence that you need?

You can subscribe to a similar ideology, but Tory refers to the UK conservative party, not to a general political ideology. There are no Tories in the USA, for example.

Anyway, from somebody a few posts ago: The audible "woah, woah"s, Mata screaming "You can't say that, ref! You can't say that! Ref! Ref!"

I wonder what it could be that they expect an immediate response from the ref. If it was a slur intended to offend a Polynesian, the ref might not immediately understand the significance, but it seems from the reaction that they expect the ref to understand. This leads me to think it might not have been a slur that applies specifically to MB. And if that's the case, considering the fact it is coming from a black person, how bad could it possibly be? 

The Canadian right-leaning party were colloquially called "the Tories" for decades until it fell out of disuse in the last 15-20 years. There has never been a Tory party here, but I think it's generally understood what the means - particularly amongst Commonwealth nations.

I hear what you're saying Napier Phoenix about being guilty via someone else's reaction, but for me when a reaction is instant and universal... it's pretty telling. There was a racism incident in MLS earlier this season and the moment it was said everyone within earshot reacted immediately. This incident was more subtle, but I don't think Bell, Tuiloma and Boxall all reacted at the same time because they all imagined or misheard the same thing in the same way.

next step in the process..........
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/nz-teams/132387858/fifa-says-all-whites-racial-abuse-complaint-could-go-to-disciplinary-committee

Monto

reg22

The lack of enlightened minds in this thread is concerning. Hopefully not a true reflection of the Phoenix fan base.

Someone doesn't immediately jump on a band wagon and wants to see more evidence = unenlightened.

Dear Boxy, Max Mata and Bill Tuiloma, 

You claim to have witnessed racial abuse, but I one L. Montgomery of 600 posts on Yellow Fever demand a recreation of the mouthsound DRS and camera 3D in order to verify the exactitude of this, because as NapierPhoenix says- who are they anyway? Can’t trust ‘em. You sneaky little probably liars! 

It’s important I find out before FIFA so I can make up my mind if it was really real racism or just a bit of fun and an argument. 

Sincerely, 

The Gomster

Point being they don’t have to satisfy the post-colonial racism experts on the YF before anything else is done. 

You’re not on the jury. None of us are. But the players heard something quite clearly and were unhappy, Qatar have so far claimed it was nothing and you did it too. 

There is a lot of cultural background to racism and other prejudice. I remember that video of Totti kicking the crap out Balotelli allegedly coming from an intra-Italy slur. There’s possibly circumstances we don’t know. If all parties act in good faith maybe we’ll find that out. 

But starting from a point of saying I don’t believe you heard anything is just insulting the boys. They heard the word or phrase and this is how they wanted to handle the situation. 

And sorry about the taking the piss- give me a kicking in the next YF casual games. It’s how I’d probably handle it- one of many reasons I’m not a pro footballer and why I’d have respect for Boxy and co.

Totti (and Zidane) way of dealing with alleged slurs: Judge Dredd method.

Wow, this is a absolute over reaction. I haven’t seen any posts where anyone has said that either racism is ok or that they didn’t believe something was said that caused a dramatic and sincere reaction from AW players. You are right, no one needs to prove to me (or anyone else that doesn’t matter) or tell me what was actually said, but I am not going to make my own mind up without knowing. 

I don’t have a link/haven’t found one, but apparently Austrian news network ORF Burgenland did an interview with referee Manuel Schuttengrubber where he confirmed it was the n-word

theprof

Monto

reg22

The lack of enlightened minds in this thread is concerning. Hopefully not a true reflection of the Phoenix fan base.

Someone doesn't immediately jump on a band wagon and wants to see more evidence = unenlightened.

Next you'll be arguing that  his team mates reaction to the comment doesnt count as evidence because they are not impartial.

I've seen many over the top reactions in football matches, it doesn't mean shark.

I don't know why people here now think I don't believe Boxall, maybe the reading comprehension here is just abysmal, I've simply been making my argurlement why I believe the team should say more about what happened.

mrsmiis

I don’t have a link/haven’t found one, but apparently Austrian news network ORF Burgenland did an interview with referee Manuel Schuttengrubber where he confirmed it was the n-word

If he confirmed that, in that he heard it, but has done nothing... then, yeh, there's the rub...

Be great if someone can find that!

martinb

Monto

reg22

The lack of enlightened minds in this thread is concerning. Hopefully not a true reflection of the Phoenix fan base.

Someone doesn't immediately jump on a band wagon and wants to see more evidence = unenlightened.

Dear Boxy, Max Mata and Bill Tuiloma, 

You claim to have witnessed racial abuse, but I one L. Montgomery of 600 posts on Yellow Fever demand a recreation of the mouthsound DRS and camera 3D in order to verify the exactitude of this, because as NapierPhoenix says- who are they anyway? Can’t trust ‘em. You sneaky little probably liars! 

It’s important I find out before FIFA so I can make up my mind if it was really real racism or just a bit of fun and an argument. 

Sincerely, 

The Gomster

Wow, you're a major dickhead bro, completely misrepresenting why I want more info.

Tbh, fudge you.

Surely it cannot be the n word. Is it really reasonable for a team to stop playing a game because a black opponent called a player the n word, when that player is not black and there are no black players in his team? Surely not.

imanixsupporter

Surely it cannot be the n word. Is it really reasonable for a team to stop playing a game because a black opponent called a player the n word, when that player is not black and there are no black players in his team? Surely not.

Mate, you need to do some reading and learn more about racial and cultural identity.

You clearly don't have an understanding of Qatari culture and how they view others, like Syrians for example who they consider to be dirty Arabs, or even worse Egyptian. The fact he is darker than Boxall has nothing to do with how he views him. The prejudice that exists there, if he did say the word comes from a sense of superiority (look at how they treat their workers). The use of the word would have reflected this and his frustration that someone beneath him would dare challenge him.

Also, to assume one must be black or atleast be blacker than the person saying the comment is moronic and doesn't account for any genetic divergence.

Your ignorance is disheartening as a football fan and as a kiwi.

If that report is true and the referee heard it, then the referee did not do his job. 

mrsmiis

I don’t have a link/haven’t found one, but apparently Austrian news network ORF Burgenland did an interview with referee Manuel Schuttengrubber where he confirmed it was the n-word

Mate, that is unfair too. I consider myself a very educated, well read and travelled person and I didn’t know of what you wrote about Qatari culture and I appreciate you enlightening me. And that was all your response needed to be, not an attack on how ignorant someone is for not knowing something you do. Now you have made that statement, from a personal interest point of view I’d love to know your source or is it just personal knowledge through your own experience?

MetalLegNZ

imanixsupporter

Surely it cannot be the n word. Is it really reasonable for a team to stop playing a game because a black opponent called a player the n word, when that player is not black and there are no black players in his team? Surely not.

Mate, you need to do some reading and learn more about racial and cultural identity.

You clearly don't have an understanding of Qatari culture and how they view others, like Syrians for example who they consider to be dirty Arabs, or even worse Egyptian. The fact he is darker than Boxall has nothing to do with how he views him. The prejudice that exists there, if he did say the word comes from a sense of superiority (look at how they treat their workers). The use of the word would have reflected this and his frustration that someone beneath him would dare challenge him.

Also, to assume one must be black or atleast be blacker than the person saying the comment is moronic and doesn't account for any genetic divergence.

Your ignorance is disheartening as a football fan and as a kiwi.

  

I'm not suggesting somebody who is black cannot be racist towards someone who is not. I'm suggesting there must be more to it, surely. If it is just the n word in isolation, coming from a black person, then it just doesn't make any sense. It is my understanding that it is ok for black people to use that word. Your explanation about Qataris doesn't really apply to such a situation. Furthermore, the player in question is himself a minority within a Qatari context, so I'm not sure why you're being so quick in ascribing such bad motives and intentions to him purely because he plays football for Qatar.

And it isn't the hue of skin colours I am talking about. The Qatari is of Somalian heritage is he not? So he is African, he is black. Boxall to my knowledge has no such African ancestry.

MetalLegNZ

imanixsupporter

Surely it cannot be the n word. Is it really reasonable for a team to stop playing a game because a black opponent called a player the n word, when that player is not black and there are no black players in his team? Surely not.

Mate, you need to do some reading and learn more about racial and cultural identity.

You clearly don't have an understanding of Qatari culture and how they view others, like Syrians for example who they consider to be dirty Arabs, or even worse Egyptian. The fact he is darker than Boxall has nothing to do with how he views him. The prejudice that exists there, if he did say the word comes from a sense of superiority (look at how they treat their workers). The use of the word would have reflected this and his frustration that someone beneath him would dare challenge him.

Also, to assume one must be black or atleast be blacker than the person saying the comment is moronic and doesn't account for any genetic divergence.

Your ignorance is disheartening as a football fan and as a kiwi.

Let's not forget that it was said in adversarial context to somebody of a different race than his own that he completely didn't know. 

Still not okay - but as someone said further up, the moment anyone found out what it was there would be the whole "ahhhh but was it racist" crowd. 

Monto

martinb

Monto

reg22

The lack of enlightened minds in this thread is concerning. Hopefully not a true reflection of the Phoenix fan base.

Someone doesn't immediately jump on a band wagon and wants to see more evidence = unenlightened.

Dear Boxy, Max Mata and Bill Tuiloma, 

You claim to have witnessed racial abuse, but I one L. Montgomery of 600 posts on Yellow Fever demand a recreation of the mouthsound DRS and camera 3D in order to verify the exactitude of this, because as NapierPhoenix says- who are they anyway? Can’t trust ‘em. You sneaky little probably liars! 

It’s important I find out before FIFA so I can make up my mind if it was really real racism or just a bit of fun and an argument. 

Sincerely, 

The Gomster

Wow, you're a major dickhead bro, completely misrepresenting why I want more info.

Tbh, fudge you.

Or accurately and that’s why it hurt?

Be honest, it doesn’t matter what any of us think on the forum. What matters is the players who reacted, the guy they reacted to, the various FAs, the ref and FIFA. 

It’s not up to any of us to judge what is and isn’t racist in this context.

martinb

Monto

martinb

Monto

reg22

The lack of enlightened minds in this thread is concerning. Hopefully not a true reflection of the Phoenix fan base.

Someone doesn't immediately jump on a band wagon and wants to see more evidence = unenlightened.

Dear Boxy, Max Mata and Bill Tuiloma, 

You claim to have witnessed racial abuse, but I one L. Montgomery of 600 posts on Yellow Fever demand a recreation of the mouthsound DRS and camera 3D in order to verify the exactitude of this, because as NapierPhoenix says- who are they anyway? Can’t trust ‘em. You sneaky little probably liars! 

It’s important I find out before FIFA so I can make up my mind if it was really real racism or just a bit of fun and an argument. 

Sincerely, 

The Gomster

Wow, you're a major dickhead bro, completely misrepresenting why I want more info.

Tbh, fudge you.

Or accurately and that’s why it hurt?

Nah you're just a bad faith arsehole.

I find it incredible really that people really need to be told that racism is bad. What the word was is completely irrelevant, all that really matters is the intent behind it.

Are some people here really saying that because it was the 'N' word and it was said by a person who was 'blacker' than our player it doesn't make sense and is therefore not a problem anymore? Racist people in general don't make a lot of sense simply because they have no ability to see life from any other perspective than their own cultures. They are to put it bluntly, stupid. 

What came out of his mouth may not have made 'sense' logically but what our players reacted to was the meaning behind it. Their player saw ours as beneath him, less than human, simply because of the way he was born. 

I am proud of our players for making that stand and we should all be standing with them. That being said I don't expect anything to come of it sadly.

Monto

martinb

Monto

martinb

Monto

reg22

The lack of enlightened minds in this thread is concerning. Hopefully not a true reflection of the Phoenix fan base.

Someone doesn't immediately jump on a band wagon and wants to see more evidence = unenlightened.

Dear Boxy, Max Mata and Bill Tuiloma, 

You claim to have witnessed racial abuse, but I one L. Montgomery of 600 posts on Yellow Fever demand a recreation of the mouthsound DRS and camera 3D in order to verify the exactitude of this, because as NapierPhoenix says- who are they anyway? Can’t trust ‘em. You sneaky little probably liars! 

It’s important I find out before FIFA so I can make up my mind if it was really real racism or just a bit of fun and an argument. 

Sincerely, 

The Gomster

Wow, you're a major dickhead bro, completely misrepresenting why I want more info.

Tbh, fudge you.

Or accurately and that’s why it hurt?

Nah you're just a bad faith arsehole.

Remember you don’t get to be offended until the whole internet has decided that what I said was universally offensive chum! 

martinb

Monto

martinb

Monto

martinb

Monto

reg22

The lack of enlightened minds in this thread is concerning. Hopefully not a true reflection of the Phoenix fan base.

Someone doesn't immediately jump on a band wagon and wants to see more evidence = unenlightened.

Dear Boxy, Max Mata and Bill Tuiloma, 

You claim to have witnessed racial abuse, but I one L. Montgomery of 600 posts on Yellow Fever demand a recreation of the mouthsound DRS and camera 3D in order to verify the exactitude of this, because as NapierPhoenix says- who are they anyway? Can’t trust ‘em. You sneaky little probably liars! 

It’s important I find out before FIFA so I can make up my mind if it was really real racism or just a bit of fun and an argument. 

Sincerely, 

The Gomster

Wow, you're a major dickhead bro, completely misrepresenting why I want more info.

Tbh, fudge you.

Or accurately and that’s why it hurt?

Nah you're just a bad faith arsehole.

Remember you don’t get to be offended until the whole internet has decided that what I said was universally offensive chum! 

Which was never what I suggested about the team at all. Never said they couldn't be offended and even stated that I believed Boxall personally. But obviously comprehension isn't your strong point.

Buffon II

imanixsupporter

Tories? This is an NZ forum, we aren't English 

Don't need to be English to be a Tory. It's a political ideology that people resonate with, irrespective of nationality. 

I'm a 'Tory', but I still hate blatant sexism & racism. Political ideology isn't a straightline correlation to these issues. Back the AWs 100% in their decision. As others have said the spontaneous outrage of the players, says it all that something very offensive was said. 

The future? All players wearing a bodycam mic/camera in their jerseys? ChatGPT analysing within seconds if any player has removed or muted their microphone, and that player facing suspension. Surely this level of surveillance ain't far off.

imanixsupporter

Surely it cannot be the n word. Is it really reasonable for a team to stop playing a game because a black opponent called a player the n word, when that player is not black and there are no black players in his team? Surely not.

I always thought it would probably be the N-word.

Maybe Abdurisag is a big fan of various African American rappers. Hearing the N-word continously though his head phones could skew, right from wrong in the head of any young impressionable not so smart 23 yr old, without a great knowledge of modern Western values & sensibilities. The Qatari mangement have just gone into coverup mode.

No wonder you love a back 5 so much coochiee, you're a conservative! I admire your bravery "coming out" as one on a forum for a team from Wellington

imanixsupporter

No wonder you love a back 5 so much coochiee, you're a conservative! I admire your bravery "coming out" as one on a forum for a team from Wellington

Gracias but I don't love a back 5, just sometimes that it suits.

“If a person is not a liberal when he is twenty, he has no heart; if he is not a conservative when he is forty, he has no head.’ OR
‘If my son is not a liberal when he is twenty, I will disown him; if he is not a conservative when he is forty, I will disown him then.’
And other variants, I am sure.”

Anyway the football world will likely soon move from this little episode. Qatar play Haiti (plenty of black people in their team) in a few days. But the issue will drag on around the AWs longer. Gives Pragnell a reprieve from questions about no permanent coach for a bit.

coochiee

imanixsupporter

Surely it cannot be the n word. Is it really reasonable for a team to stop playing a game because a black opponent called a player the n word, when that player is not black and there are no black players in his team? Surely not.

I always thought it would probably be the N-word.

Maybe Abdurisag is a big fan of various African American rappers. Hearing the N-word continously though his head phones could skew, right from wrong in the head of any young impressionable not so smart 23 yr old, without a great knowledge of modern Western values & sensibilities. The Qatari mangement have just gone into coverup mode.

I remember working with a lovely, shy guy who was around 19/20 and was studying English from movies on his own time. 

There was this big training exercise role play involving moving bunches of people ( with varying English abilities ) around 5 different rooms. Around 40 minutes in the trainer was getting a little frazzled and asked the dude to move with a group to one of the other stations to which he replied

“Screw You!” 

Which was a complete surprise attack and somewhat broke the trainer! I’m still not sure to this day how much he meant it…I think he thought it might be a good joke or something…

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/nz-teams/132394844/why-nz-football-cant-let-all-whites-racism-claim-case-disappear-into-fifas-toohard-basket

I agree with Tony - the lack of detail revealed about this means that this is far more likely to go nowhere. 

mrsmiis

I don’t have a link/haven’t found one, but apparently Austrian news network ORF Burgenland did an interview with referee Manuel Schuttengrubber where he confirmed it was the n-word

Just Googled it, and could find this whereby the ref tells the news outlet "I know nothing......nothing!" (I'm really hoping he said it in a Sgt Schultz voice)

https://burgenland.orf.at/stories/3212422/

What do we think the players and the rest of us want out of this though? Tony talks of not sweeping it under the carpet, but what does that mean?

I mean ultimately it would be good to see the Qatari player front up, apologise and for international teams to reflect on racism in their home leagues, within their clubs etc, which is something FIFA has been trying to get them to do for a long time.

On the other hand there is a blatant kind of status enhancement race in football being held in the Gulf States with Qatar, Saudi Arabia and UAE prominent. 

This kind of publicity is not status enhancing, especially if you’ve picked up the tab for the game. 

We’re not going to see significant hierarchy changes in these countries because of football matches. You’d think. Though Mandela did say the 81 protests buoyed him when he heard about them. But that was something different again. 

But then again maybe there will be minor shockwaves or some of the players at least will see that somethings are held to be more important than football to some outside their bubble. So perhaps the largest impact they can hope to make has already been felt by young fans and players?

Rusty Dunks

mrsmiis

I don’t have a link/haven’t found one, but apparently Austrian news network ORF Burgenland did an interview with referee Manuel Schuttengrubber where he confirmed it was the n-word

Just Googled it, and could find this whereby the ref tells the news outlet "I know nothing......nothing!" (I'm really hoping he said it in a Sgt Schultz voice)

https://burgenland.orf.at/stories/3212422/

From a google translate:

At half-time, the captain of the New Zealanders announced that they did not want to continue playing. "I was then surprised. I was then told that there was a racist insult, it was about the N-word," says Schüttengruber. 

Which seems, well, odd, if you watch the game footage including Joe Bell talking to the ref. 

The referee will be covering his own ass too. 

martinb

Rusty Dunks

mrsmiis

I don’t have a link/haven’t found one, but apparently Austrian news network ORF Burgenland did an interview with referee Manuel Schuttengrubber where he confirmed it was the n-word

Just Googled it, and could find this whereby the ref tells the news outlet "I know nothing......nothing!" (I'm really hoping he said it in a Sgt Schultz voice)

https://burgenland.orf.at/stories/3212422/

From a google translate:

At half-time, the captain of the New Zealanders announced that they did not want to continue playing. "I was then surprised. I was then told that there was a racist insult, it was about the N-word," says Schüttengruber. 

Which seems, well, odd, if you watch the game footage including Joe Bell talking to the ref. 

This matter is currently being looked at - very unprofessional for him to say anything at all.

At a guess, I would have thought as a minimum all refs/officials would need to get the ok from FIFA to discuss a game to limit any chance of controversy until a certain amount of time lapses.