All Whites, Ferns, and other international teams

All Whites vs South Africa

441 replies · 8,272 views
almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Hard News wrote:
Put simply it needs the NZRFU's annual budget spent on it, and NZF would be lucky to have 5% of that.
 
Point taken HN - the resources are very limited.  But why not try to employ what's available more effectively with a longer-term objective in mind?  The fact is that what we're doing now - and what we've been doing for time immemorial - is getting us no where.  Sure, every new generation or so we produce a Rufer or a Nelsen (although probably even the likes of their talent is less to do with NZ Football and more to do with exceptionally motivated guys who make the decision to get the hell out of our dysfunctional football environment pronto). 
 
So, for example, why in the shorter term spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a crap NZFC that is perpetually being tweaked to save it from its last legs, and that understandably almost no one wants to support?
 
It would be better switching the focus and investing that money on the development of the sport (with international coaches, top class playing facilities, etc.) at the junior and youth levels and, as a first step, trying to get those players in large numbers into the Phoenix and other A-League teams.  Eventually, in a generation or so, some players will migrate to better leagues.  Under our current setup, the vast majority of players that end up in an expensive NZFC are never going to amount to much as footballers because they simply haven't received the development  needed in them, starting at the junior level.
 
The same could be argued about the All Whites.  It's a waste of (scarce) resources (measured in millions of dollars) trying to get them to the like of the Confederation Cup and the World Cup, given the lack of quality we produce.  When under the present structure players get into the All Whites and are able to run only as fast as donkeys and can't trap a bag of cement, they will continue to be crap players, no matter how much international exposure they get.  They're simply too old to improve, except maybe at the margin. Once again, that money would be better invested in junior and youth football, including in the likes of national under-15's and under-17's.  In the shorter term, given we have limited resorces, we should forget about the emphasis being on the All Whites and focus our attention on youth international football. We need to get to a situation where in the long term we have at any one time, say, 15-20 of our best players plying their trade in the higher European leagues and many others in lower-level competitions, including the A-League.
 
However, this would require a huge change in the mindset, and a major switch in the strategic direction, of NZ Football - one that is prepared to forsake the short-term (imagined) glory for a (real) better long-term future. 
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
So why call him that when Its his brain and not his money that has got the FFA to where it is now.

Maybe NZF should get Graeme Hart to help out. I mean he was once a Goal Keeper for a kings country club.convict2009-06-18 16:18:18
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I don't recall writing anything that mentioned Lowy, or even Australia.

There is very little to compare between the two nations in Football, different mindsets, different obstacles, different demographics.

I'm not arguing with you axmfc, in fact I think at some point I've argued the same case.  Not sure FIFA would give it much love though.
Hard News2009-06-18 16:19:15

How's my driving? - Whine here

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
el grapadura wrote:
Marius Lacatus wrote:
Smithy wrote:
Marius Lacatus wrote:
3.) please drop the financial argument about travel costs without mentioning the foregone revenues from being stuck in a Federation whose countries have no $, no population and are just deadset unmarketable. Virtually nil match revenue and nil commercial sponsorship in the OFC.

 

Why drop this argument exactly?

 

because its flawed - i think thats implicit.

 

I will however permit an argument - because im feeling generous - in which News, yourself or anybody else sets out the likely costs of having to play in Asia alongside a calculation of likely revenues and makes a net assessment.

 

but since news wasnt talking about our costs, we may wish to move on - particualrly given our history on this debate Smithy


OK Marius - I'll give you a scenario, and see if you want to do the maths. We've just joined AFC and NZ gets drawn with Kuwait, Indonesia and Bahrain to qualify for the AFC Cup. The U23s are in the same group to qualify for the Olympics, and U20s and U17s in the same group to qualify for their respective World Cups (all theses groups wouldn't be the same, but for argument's sake let's say they are). If the age-grade teams progress successfully from their groups, they'll have to play further matches, let's say agains Japan, North Korea and Saudi Arabia. What do you think the financial cost of all this would be, and how much do you think we'd get in return?
 
grap -
 
my invitation is to somebody else to do the numbers if they wish.
 
my view is simply that - on balance - the opportunities (from tv, gate, commercial) will outweigh the costs.
 
I think it could be done and has to be done.
 
that fixture list looks brilliant btw - im in fantasyland!
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
wow that calculator boxing game brings back memories!
 
My take on the game is:
 
1. Herbert is capable at A-League level but not at international level. I don't buy into the idea that the players are not up to it - on paper the first choice team are not bad with Killen, Smeltz and Wood up front, players of MLS level (e.g. Elliot and Lochhead who I believe could be at that level) + Ryan Nelson in the middle and at the back. However the All Whites are not playing at their potential, which I blame the coach for.
 
2. There is not enough (any?) attention placed on sports pyschology. It does not matter what level of ability the players have but if they lose confidence too easily and don't go out with the right mindset then that talent is going to be wasted - as it was this morning. Does Herbert have much understanding of this area, or does NZF have resources here? There is a massive contrast to the Socceroos and successful A-League sides such as Melbourne Victory who take to the park with self belief. Some of you might scoff but psychology is massively important in any sport, football included, and it is something that can be worked on. NZF needs someone working in this area.
 
3. New Zealand is sorely lacking in depth. Not a lot can be done about this in the short term obviously.
 
4. As other have stated, OFC entry into world tournaments does not help. Regular games are needed to build experience and cohesion, and the OFC cannot provide this. I have no idea about the financials from a cost perspective, as nobody has shown me the additional costs in terms of travel vs. the increased gate takings if we were regularly getting 15k crowds for matches against interesting opposition. I also don't buy into the argument that we'd just get regular beatings. We should be able to compete against the likes of Qatar and the underperforming China, it's just a matter of which round of Asian qualifying we get to. Sadly though I agree that this seems a long way off, due to AFC not being motivated to admit us due to lack of market potential for them, and FIFA politics in terms of where the Blatter camp get their votes from. At least NZF should take the first step and say they want out of the OFC. P.S. We may need to pick and choose what AFC tournaments we enter, as existing smaller AFC nations do. Reality of being a small country.
 
 
SC032009-06-18 16:28:26
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Marius Lacatus wrote:
my view is simply�that - on balance - the opportunities (from tv, gate, commercial) will outweigh the costs.


I fear you overestimate the potential income we'd get and underestimate the cost...but guess there's no way of finding out who's right with regard to this.

Although like you, I'd much rather see the All Whites and age-grade teams play that kind of opposition as opposed to Fiji, Tahiti and New Caledonia.
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
SC03 wrote:
I also don't buy into the argument that we'd just get regular beatings. We should be able to compete against the likes of Qatar and the underperforming China, it's just a matter of which round of Asian qualifying we get to.�
�

�


Both Qatar and China are much better sides than us.
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
SC03 wrote:
4. As other have stated, OFC entry into world tournaments does not help. Regular games are needed to build experience and cohesion, and the OFC cannot provide this. I have no idea about the financials from a cost perspective, as nobody has shown me the additional costs in terms of travel vs. the increased gate takings if we were regularly getting 15k crowds for matches against interesting opposition. I also don't buy into the argument that we'd just get regular beatings. We should be able to compete against the likes of Qatar and the underperforming China, it's just a matter of which round of Asian qualifying we get to. Sadly though I agree that this seems a long way off, due to AFC not being motivated to admit us due to lack of market potential for them, and FIFA politics in terms of where the Blatter camp get their votes from. At least NZF should take the first step and say they want out of the OFC. P.S. We may need to pick and choose what AFC tournaments we enter, as existing smaller AFC nations do. Reality of being a small country.

15k crowds? Unlikely. The football faithfull might find AFC opposition more interesting but the general public wouldn't give a damn. A WCQ against the likes of Bahrain, Uzbekistan, Veitnam etc will mean as much to them as a WCQ against the likes of Vanuatu, Tahiti, New Caledonia etc, and the crowd sizes for those games was nothing to write home about.
matty.j2009-06-18 16:34:42
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
convict wrote:
So why call him that when Its his brain and not his money that has got the FFA to where it is now.
 
Brain maybe, contacts certainly.
 
 
Marius, have a read of that.  A little out of date but it shows you just what sort of a black hole for money getting into Asia actually is.  $45m from the government to fill that hole up.  The cost would be similar here, because we'd be entering the same competitions. 
 
If Australia can't sustain themselves without government help, what hope do we have?
 

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Smithy wrote:
Marius, have a read of that.  A little out of date but it shows you just what sort of a black hole for money getting into Asia actually is.  $45m from the government to fill that hole up.  The cost would be similar here, because we'd be entering the same competitions. 
 
If Australia can't sustain themselves without government help, what hope do we have?
 

That $45 mill is for the campaign to stage the finals in Australia (2018) not for the national teams 2010 campaign, isn't it?
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Based on what evidence are Qatar better than us? They have been 3-0, 4-0 easy beats for the Socceroos, as we would be. On paper China are no better, almost their entire squad are back playing in the CSL which is no better than the A-League. Anyway what is the alternative, put your heads down and accept that the All Whites will never be competitive against anyone?
 
A benefit of the AFC would be the calender - regular matches should build interest, which should result in larger crowds. One off games with a gap of months before the next one doesn't. As I said however I'm not going to get into the financials on this as I've never seen an analysis, and we would probably have to pick and choose AFC tournaments.
 
Surely 15k crowds would be a target with more regular games and a limited amount of marketing?
 
P.S. There are preliminary rounds in Asian qualifying, in which we could play SE Asian sides. Getting to Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia or Thailand is no more expensive than getting to Pacific Island destinations. I am then contradicting my own arguement of regular games if we plead with the AFC to put us in prelim rounds rather than first group stages though.
SC032009-06-18 16:45:13
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
el grapadura wrote:
axmfc wrote:
Would be interested el grap in briefly learning your views on the things that need to change in NZ Football from, as I think you said somewhere else, from top to bottom. 

 


Well. The problem is that it's easy to point the finger, but less easy to come up with solutions, particularly considering the financial state of our national body. But here a few things off the top of my head:

1. Facilities - exceptionally poor here. We need a significant investment in playing fields, especially for juniors, to enable them to start developing good technique and grasp basic principles of football. Pretty hard to do that when you're an 8-year old knee deep in mud on a cold July morning.

2. Youth coaching - we need to invest in qualified coaches to work with youth players, who can teach the tehnical and tactical aspects of the game to kids. My 8-year old nephew plays for Petone and is quite a good player for his age. But he's coached by a guy who's one of the dads, and whose knowledge of the game and ability to relate it to kids that age is not up to scratch. Good on him for getting in there, but that kind of approach doesn't take us too far.

3. Youth development - this is one of the critical areas for me, as I think this is where we are losing out big time in the international game. Our teenage players (15-18 age group) lack the development of their counterparts in developed footballing nations. While our boys go to school and maybe get 2-3 training sessions a week (with very, very few exceptions), in many other footballing countries the same age-groups are training 5 times a week, and are on verge of professional contracts. We, on the other hand, get a massive drop-out because the professional pathway is too narrow. Of the ones who do remain in the game, their development has been slower than that of their counterpartsin other countries, and they consequently tend to struggle unless exceptionally talented or prepared to make huge sacrifices in order to succeed. But you can't build a system around exceptions to the rule.

4. The lack of a good and strong domestic league is obviously significant, but it's hard to improve the standard considering the ability of players who come into it. So to raise the standard, the investment needs to go into the junior levels of the game first. The reality is that we will never have a domestic league that could rival the A-League, so the emphasis would need to be on producing players regularly who can compete at that level and beyond. This of course means we need to fight hard and lobby extensively to keep the Phoenix in the league, and hopefully get another NZ team in there at some point in the future. If the Nix get kicked out of the A-league, I can see some very dark times ahead for NZ football.

How are we going to do all this without a significant amount of money that it would require and that NZF doesn't have? I don't know. I guess we take baby steps and spend the money strategically with the long-term in mind. But that may be too much to expect from NZF.
 
Thanks el grapadura.  I think that's a superb outline.  I've just read it after writing my piece above in response to HN.  I think I saw a while ago an invitation under another subject heading on the forum asking for responses to NZ Football's plan to review the NZFC.  I certainly think your outline above would make a very worthy contribution to the debate and is informative for NZ Football, and you therefore might like to post it there.
 
As you'll gather from my piece, I think NZ Football is focusing on the wrong areas in the short term (e.g., the NZFC, the All Whites), given the very limited resources it has.  I agree with you that if the Phoenix get kicked out of the A-League, which is a real risk, things would be incredibly tough for the development of football in this country.  For me, I'd like to see NZ Football treat the A-League as our de facto domestic league in terms of the development of our youth, i.e., the aim should be to get our youth players into the Phoenix and other A-League sides (which will probably eventually grow to at least 14) and forget about, at least in the short term, an overly expensive and ineffective NZFC.  I was also going to raise the idea of a second NZ-based team in the A-League but didn't think this would be realistic given that the Phoenix are struggling and given the competition from Australian-based investors to establish sides in Australia. 
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Smithy wrote:
convict wrote:
So why call him that when Its his brain and not his money that has got the FFA to where it is now.
 
Brain maybe, contacts certainly.
 
 
Marius, have a read of that.  A little out of date but it shows you just what sort of a black hole for money getting into Asia actually is.  $45m from the government to fill that hole up.  The cost would be similar here, because we'd be entering the same competitions. 
 
If Australia can't sustain themselves without government help, what hope do we have?
 
Smithy, quite interesting - and a good case for joining asia
 
as far as i could gather, that $45 mill is for the world cup bid.
 
 
 
 
 
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Smithy wrote:
convict wrote:
So why call him that when Its his brain and not his money that has got the FFA to where it is now.
 
Brain maybe, contacts certainly.
 
 
Marius, have a read of that.  A little out of date but it shows you just what sort of a black hole for money getting into Asia actually is.  $45m from the government to fill that hole up.  The cost would be similar here, because we'd be entering the same competitions. 
 
If Australia can't sustain themselves without government help, what hope do we have?
 
So how does the poor nations in Asia and the ones like the pinos and Temor aford it?
Surely New Zealand would fit into this...I mean that are playing like a 3rd country team and there funds are just above that.
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
lol

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Last time Australia played Qatar it was 0-0. In a World Cup qualifier. I'd like to see us get that result against Socceroos in a competetive game.

Nuff said.

EDIT: In relation to SCO3's post.el grapadura2009-06-18 16:46:44
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
matty.j wrote:
Smithy wrote:
Marius, have a read of that.  A little out of date but it shows you just what sort of a black hole for money getting into Asia actually is.  $45m from the government to fill that hole up.  The cost would be similar here, because we'd be entering the same competitions. 
 
If Australia can't sustain themselves without government help, what hope do we have?
 

That $45 mill is for the campaign to stage the finals in Australia (2018) not for the national teams 2010 campaign, isn't it?
 
Oops.
 

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
axmfc wrote:
As you'll gather from my piece, I think NZ Football is focusing on the wrong areas in the short term (e.g., the NZFC, the All Whites), given the very limited resources it has.


The saddest indictment is that they aren't spending anything on this either.  One of the fundamental flaws (ignoring the whole question on the best place to invest meagre funds) of the NZFC is that NZF have pretty much abandonded it since the first two seasons, cutting funding, not promoting it and not resourcing it even close to adequately.

How's my driving? - Whine here

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Hard News wrote:
axmfc wrote:
As you'll gather from my piece, I think NZ Football is focusing on the wrong areas in the short term (e.g., the NZFC, the All Whites), given the very limited resources it has.


The saddest indictment is that they aren't spending anything on this either.  One of the fundamental flaws (ignoring the whole question on the best place to invest meagre funds) of the NZFC is that NZF have pretty much abandonded it since the first two seasons, cutting funding, not promoting it and not resourcing it even close to adequately.
 
Point taken HN.  I should have phrased my argument in terms of the scarce resources of the NZ football community / stakeholders generally.
 
Your point begs the question of the competence of NZ Football in running the sport in this country.  I wonder if there's  a good case for an independent inquiry of the type that SPARC ordered in NZ Rugby League, which would investigate the whole longer-term strategic direction of football?
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Maybe this has been covered but I can't be bothered trawling through all the arguing. 

Blatter needs Oceania to keep him in power as we have 11 votes and if we move to Asia then he would likely lose those votes to bin Hammam, right?  Then why do we not suck him for every advantage possible in order to keep our loyalty.  Make him buy us out, so to speak.

Also, it's understandable Blatter wants to keep those 11 seats, but why did he let Australia leave Oceania?  Isn't that losing a vote?  If he didn't mind losing one team why not let one more (aka us) leave?
loyalgunner2009-06-18 17:42:08
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
axmfc wrote:
Point taken HN.  I should have phrased my argument in terms of the scarce resources of the NZ football community / stakeholders generally.
 
Your point begs the question of the competence of NZ Football in running the sport in this country.  I wonder if there's  a good case for an independent inquiry of the type that SPARC ordered in NZ Rugby League, which would investigate the whole longer-term strategic direction of football?


I think the only result would be that there isn't enough money.  There have been examples of incompetence and waste but they are minor.

How's my driving? - Whine here

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
el grapadura wrote:
Last time Australia played Qatar it was 0-0. In a World Cup qualifier. I'd like to see us get that result against Socceroos in a competetive game.

Nuff said.

EDIT: In relation to SCO3's post.
 
In a game where a draw was enough to send them to the World Cup...in the previous three encounters they won by at least three.
 
Good point by loyalgunner about milking the OFC vote leverage over Blatter. But it's a question for the OFC not just NZF, and the OFC don't have much of a clue...
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Wow, this makes some interesting reading.

Just on a sidenote (that may have been mentioned elsewhere), anyone else nervous about the next game given that Iraq just held Spain to 1-0?
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
[QUOTE

3. Youth development - this is one of the critical areas for me, as I think this is where we are losing out big time in the international game. Our teenage players (15-18 age group) lack the development of their counterparts in developed footballing nations. While our boys go to school and maybe get 2-3 training sessions a week (with very, very few exceptions), in many other footballing countries the same age-groups are training 5 times a week, and are on verge of professional contracts. We, on the other hand, get a massive drop-out because the professional pathway is too narrow. Of the ones who do remain in the game, their development has been slower than that of their counterpartsin other countries, and they consequently tend to struggle unless exceptionally talented or prepared to make huge sacrifices in order to succeed. But you can't build a system around exceptions to the rule.

.[/QUOTE]

Well the key to all of this is depth of quality of the younger age group. Sort of a " If you build it they will come". If we massively upgrade our coaching quality of our 5-12 year olds we end up with a bigger pyramid base of technically gifted kids. this means that instead of the current situation where we have a handful of outstanding teenage players we end up with a greater number of technically gifted players. that in turn means more intense teenage leagues with a higher level of competition and more chances for youth players to be training and playing against consistently better opposition which in turn keeps their development moving.

I see people claiming that our players are good enough. If you think that you are quite simply in lala land. The only player who has truly impressed me over the last couple of games has been Simon Elliott, its a shame he is now 35.

One thing that has really struck watching the replays of the games has been our lack of "pass and move". Our players seem to make a pass and stand and admire their passes. Every time Spain, Iraq, Italy, South Africa, Brazil etc pass a ball the player who has made the pass moves to new space. Simone Elliott spent so much of his time looking for a player to pass to while his team mates stood their waiting for him to initiate a move. The most important player ont he pitch at any single moment is the player without the ball.

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
jamesnz wrote:
South Africa favourites to win, but I'd give us a 33% chance of pulling off a draw or victory. Vs Iraq I'd say it's closer to a 50% chance.
 



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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Arsenal wrote:
jamesnz wrote:
South Africa favourites to win, but I'd give us a 33% chance of pulling off a draw or victory. Vs Iraq I'd say it's closer to a 50% chance.
 



 
Agreed. We were rubbish. I haven't read any other comments since the match, but I honestly couldn't say anybody in the team even had a decent match, apart from Moss. Everyone was embarrassingly bad. Not liking our chances against Iraq now...
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Smithy wrote:
el grapadura wrote:
axmfc wrote:

Would be interested el grap in briefly learning your views on the things that need to change in NZ Football from, as I think you said somewhere else, from top to bottom.�

�
Well. The problem is that it's easy to point the finger, but less easy to come up with solutions, particularly considering the financial state of our national body. But here a few things off the top of my head: 1. Facilities - exceptionally poor here. We need a significant investment in playing fields, especially for juniors, to enable them to start developing good technique and grasp basic principles of football. Pretty hard to do that when you're an 8-year old knee deep in mud on a cold July morning. 2. Youth coaching - we need to invest in qualified coaches to work with youth players, who can teach the tehnical and tactical aspects of the game to kids. My 8-year old nephew plays for Petone and is quite a good player for his age. But he's coached by a guy who's one of the dads, and whose knowledge of the game and ability to relate it to kids that age is not up to scratch. Good on him for getting in there, but that kind of approach doesn't take us too far. 3. Youth development - this is one of the critical areas for me, as I think this is where we are losing out big time in the international game. Our teenage players (15-18 age group) lack the development of their counterparts in developed footballing nations. While our boys go to school and maybe get 2-3 training sessions a week (with very, very few exceptions), in many other footballing countries the same age-groups are training 5 times a week, and are on verge of professional contracts. We, on the other hand, get a massive drop-out because the professional pathway is too narrow. Of the ones who do remain in the game, their development has been slower than that of their counterpartsin other countries, and they consequently tend to struggle unless exceptionally talented or prepared to make huge sacrifices in order to succeed. But you can't build a system around exceptions to the rule. 4. The lack of a good and strong domestic league is obviously significant, but it's hard to improve the standard considering the ability of players who come into it. So to raise the standard, the investment needs to go into the junior levels of the game first. The reality is that we will never have a domestic league that could rival the A-League, so the emphasis would need to be on producing players regularly who can compete at that level and beyond. This of course means we need to fight hard and lobby extensively to keep the Phoenix in the league, and hopefully get another NZ team in there at some point in the future. If the Nix get kicked out of the A-league, I can see some very dark times ahead for NZ football. How are we going to do all this without a significant amount of money that it would require and that NZF doesn't have? I don't know. I guess we take baby steps and spend the money strategically with the long-term in mind. But that may be too much to expect from NZF.

�



Have been down that road re good Dad's helping out.Good on them, but in reality it does not help the future of football. I coached for that very reason. 10 to 15 years old guys.. Got at least 2 All Whites out of them.The promlem is that ex players are not prepared to put in the effort. These are the same blokes that bag the AW's.

If you are old and wise you were probably young and stupid

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
loyalgunner wrote:

Maybe this has been covered but I can't be bothered trawling through all the arguing.� Blatter needs Oceania to keep him in power as we have 11 votes and if we move to Asia then he would likely lose those votes to bin Hammam, right?� Then why do we not suck him for every advantage possible in order to keep our loyalty.� Make him buy us out, so to speak.Also, it's understandable Blatter wants to keep those 11 seats, but why did he let Australia leave Oceania?� Isn't that losing a vote?� If he didn't mind losing one team why not let one more (aka us) leave?


From the OFC thread:
The problem is that it's not us bossing th OFC, but the 10 smaller nations. So hard for us to use the OFC clout when we can't get anything done there if it's against the interests of the islands.

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
SC03 wrote:
wow that calculator boxing game brings back memories!
�

My take on the game is:

�

1. Herbert is capable at A-League level but not at international level. I don't buy into the idea that the players are not up to it - on paper�the first choice team�are not bad with Killen, Smeltz and Wood up front, players of MLS level (e.g. Elliot and Lochhead who I believe could be at that level) + Ryan Nelson in the middle and at the back. However the All Whites are not playing at�their potential, which I blame the coach for.

�

2. There is not enough (any?) attention placed on sports pyschology. It does not matter what level of ability the players have but if they lose confidence too easily and don't go out with the right mindset then that talent is going to be wasted - as it was this morning. Does Herbert have much understanding of this area, or does NZF have resources here? There is a massive contrast to the Socceroos and successful A-League sides such as Melbourne Victory who take to the park with self belief. Some of you might scoff but psychology is massively important in any sport, football included, and it is something that can be worked on. NZF needs someone working in this area.

�

3. New Zealand is sorely lacking in depth. Not a lot can be done about this in the short term obviously.

�

4. As other have stated, OFC entry into world tournaments does not help. Regular games are needed to build experience and cohesion, and the OFC cannot provide this. I have no idea about the financials from a cost perspective, as nobody has shown me the additional costs in terms of travel vs. the increased gate takings if we were regularly getting 15k crowds for matches against interesting opposition. I also don't buy into the argument that we'd just get regular beatings. We should be able to compete against the likes of Qatar and the underperforming China, it's just a matter of which round of Asian qualifying we get to.�Sadly though I agree that this seems a long way off, due to AFC not being motivated to admit us due to lack of market potential for them, and FIFA politics in terms of where the Blatter camp get their votes from. At least NZF should take the first step and say they want out of the OFC. P.S. We may need to pick and choose what AFC tournaments we enter, as existing smaller AFC nations do. Reality of being a small country.

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How can you say thay the players are not up to it? The fact is they are NOT good enough. I mentioned on this thread 2 weeks ago that we would not win any game.It seems that has gone over everone head. I don't think that most people realize how good the rest of the world is.

If you are old and wise you were probably young and stupid

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I'm going to do something. Not sure what.
I was so disheartened with what I saw this morning, something has to be done.Turfmoore2009-06-18 22:14:21

I know, I know, its serious!

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
All very well to bag Ricki-- but the players are NOT good enough.

If you are old and wise you were probably young and stupid

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Leggy wrote:
SC03 wrote:
wow that calculator boxing game brings back memories!
 

My take on the game is:

 

1. Herbert is capable at A-League level but not at international level. I don't buy into the idea that the players are not up to it - on paper the first choice team are not bad with Killen, Smeltz and Wood up front, players of MLS level (e.g. Elliot and Lochhead who I believe could be at that level) + Ryan Nelson in the middle and at the back. However the All Whites are not playing at their potential, which I blame the coach for.

 

2. There is not enough (any?) attention placed on sports pyschology. It does not matter what level of ability the players have but if they lose confidence too easily and don't go out with the right mindset then that talent is going to be wasted - as it was this morning. Does Herbert have much understanding of this area, or does NZF have resources here? There is a massive contrast to the Socceroos and successful A-League sides such as Melbourne Victory who take to the park with self belief. Some of you might scoff but psychology is massively important in any sport, football included, and it is something that can be worked on. NZF needs someone working in this area.

 

3. New Zealand is sorely lacking in depth. Not a lot can be done about this in the short term obviously.

 

4. As other have stated, OFC entry into world tournaments does not help. Regular games are needed to build experience and cohesion, and the OFC cannot provide this. I have no idea about the financials from a cost perspective, as nobody has shown me the additional costs in terms of travel vs. the increased gate takings if we were regularly getting 15k crowds for matches against interesting opposition. I also don't buy into the argument that we'd just get regular beatings. We should be able to compete against the likes of Qatar and the underperforming China, it's just a matter of which round of Asian qualifying we get to. Sadly though I agree that this seems a long way off, due to AFC not being motivated to admit us due to lack of market potential for them, and FIFA politics in terms of where the Blatter camp get their votes from. At least NZF should take the first step and say they want out of the OFC. P.S. We may need to pick and choose what AFC tournaments we enter, as existing smaller AFC nations do. Reality of being a small country.

 

 


How can you say thay the players are not up to it? The fact is they are NOT good enough. I mentioned on this thread 2 weeks ago that we would not win any game.It seems that has gone over everone head. I don't think that most people realize how good the rest of the world is.
 
 Yeah, like we all made a note of it....
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
While technical ability is obviously important and it is quite clear that a lot of the current crop of players have been found lacking that ability, it's also important from a coaching side to recognise those deficiencies and prepare a team that can still be competitive to an extent.
 
At international level players should at least be able to hit a target when passing and also move into space to receive a ball. These are basic technical skills that we don't seem to possess.
 
RH needs to shoulder blame for his approach to this mornings game. The starting 11 didn't make a lot of sense and the substitutions were also questionable given the way both teams were playing the game.
 
I would think that NZF needs to consider looking at foreign coaches as I dont believe there is a local coach capable of getting the current side to the World Cup.
 
Perhaps an opportunity is there to look at foreign influence as a means of re-developing grassroots football also.  
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
The Iraq coach has taken a lot of country's to the World Cup, such as Nigeria - China - Costa Rica etc, Hes free after the Confed Cup.
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Hard News wrote:
The problem is that I suspect free is one thing he isn't.

Yeah i keep forgetting about the 3rd world budget NZF has.
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

It was so depressing. I really don't know what I think:

* We are really sh1t and even garbage teams embarrass us

* We are really sh1t, but the problem is that we all watch too much premiership football and have unrealistic expectations. Self Efrica are actually a lot better than us, we are trying to change our style of football that will help us long term (moving from humping it long to trying - unsuccessfully - to play football). We are also missing our best player/captain/talisman, and will be better for the experience in the long run.

* Herbert has to go - clueless, can't seem to motivate players, no discernable tactics, no-mark substitutions. He comes across well in the media which makes people like him, but he is getting found out big time now.

* Herbert must stay. If he goes, who replaces him? It has to be remembered that the squad play about 4 games a year outside of these tournaments, so we cannot get anyone who wants big money (ie a decent foreign coach). That means that we are replacing him with someone like Stu Jacobs, Colin Tua, John Herdman or Derek Gibson-Smith. I just don't think that coaching in the NZFC, womens game or the 80's qualifies you for the national job. There is no point in sacking a coach a) a couple of months before the biggest game for the national team in the last 25 years and b) to replace him with someone inferior.

The only thing I know is that Chris Killen owes me the �2 I wasted on him scoring in the last 2 games.

All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
It seem to me we are actually bagging our own unrealistic expectations here.

They were raised higher after the friendly with Italy, which was a style of game that suited us

Against Spain and South African our technical inabilities were revealed against their pace and skill.

For all those bagging the coach, I am wondering what other style of game we could have played other than try and hold and get something on the counter attack, as we simply at this stage dont have the resources to "take the game to them", not enough skill or experience or team unity.

The lack of those last 3 things is a result of years of trying to improve our game with limited resources, and we have limited resources for the future as well.

On the positive side though, to get players motivated to be better, they need to have paths to travel on (something to dream of achieving) and one of those is in place - the Phoenix in the A League is the most visible local step, and I think it is where as much effort as possible should go to retaining its place in the League and to strengthening the team and its performance on the field.

probably more to write but it's been a long day


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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Nth Korea provide a useful example of what can be achieved at this level. Sure their players have ability but basically their success has been built on extremely efficient smothering tactics. They are highly disciplined and organised, which is a tribute to their coaching staff.
 
The All Whites are clearly confused as to whether they should be playing an expansive or a holding game. Perhaps Ricki and co are too. Either way it's fatal for our chances.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
StopOut, nail on the head.  The times that we really pressed the Sth Africans, and got in amongst them to break up the play we looked ok.  Not a lot going forward but we put pressure on them.  AT other times who knows what we were trying to achieve.  My major issue is with the way we set ourselves out I'm not sure how we expected to beat them or get a point.  Did we really believe that we could play them at their game and win, despite the fact that man for man we were significantly worse right across the park?
 
That's the disappointing thing, tactically we were naive, the more I think about it the worse it looks.  We need to be cynical, defensive, dirty all the things we hate.  Learn how to make it difficult for the opposition, how to compete at this level.  It's the old cliche, you have to earnt he right to play football, but it's true.  We don't have any kind of a platform to play attacking football, so we look like conceding every time we try to knock it around and lose the ball.

Normo's coming home

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