All Whites, Ferns, and other international teams

All Whites vs South Africa

441 replies · 8,272 views

almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

It was so depressing. I really don't know what I think:

* We are really sh1t and even garbage teams embarrass us

* We are really sh1t, but the problem is that we all watch too much premiership football and have unrealistic expectations. Self Efrica are actually a lot better than us, we are trying to change our style of football that will help us long term (moving from humping it long to trying - unsuccessfully - to play football). We are also missing our best player/captain/talisman, and will be better for the experience in the long run.

* Herbert has to go - clueless, can't seem to motivate players, no discernable tactics, no-mark substitutions. He comes across well in the media which makes people like him, but he is getting found out big time now.

* Herbert must stay. If he goes, who replaces him? It has to be remembered that the squad play about 4 games a year outside of these tournaments, so we cannot get anyone who wants big money (ie a decent foreign coach). That means that we are replacing him with someone like Stu Jacobs, Colin Tua, John Herdman or Derek Gibson-Smith. I just don't think that coaching in the NZFC, womens game or the 80's qualifies you for the national job. There is no point in sacking a coach a) a couple of months before the biggest game for the national team in the last 25 years and b) to replace him with someone inferior.

The only thing I know is that Chris Killen owes me the ï¿½2 I wasted on him scoring in the last 2 games.

How about

#1, correct, and yes we did loose to fiji and thailand

#2 we watch local football too, and it actually looks like football too, unlike what we've resently seen. Hell yeah S.A is a lot better, but so are most. Haven't seen any style of football yet so don't know about the style change you mentioned, and our best player, sadly wouldn't have made any difference.

#3 correct, though I think he comes across on the media abit vague, maybe like his team talks for the team has no direction.

#4 If the only reason you would keep him is because all the locals are worse, mmm.. gotta look elsewhere. Why do we have to get an established coach, maybe some sort of rising star. 4 games a year we might as well have a part time coach who might as well coaches another side.

Yes, the same situ as Herbert,but someone able to handle it.

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

New Zealand football has put a lot of faith in Ricki, we need him to succeed otherwise what happens to the whole system? If he loses th AWs job what happens to the Phoenix job? The two are linked, but ultimately maybe it was a mistake.

Normo's coming home

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Hang on, so now a part time coach is the solution, how did we get there from 'he can't do both the AW's and the Phoenix job' ?

How's my driving? - Whine here

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Just in - the South African goalkeeper is being treated for severe depression. The team doctors say it was cause by lack of human contact for unusually long periods of time.

I wasn't ready for watching us play worse than we did against Spain. I thought the previous two games would have taught us plenty. Turns out we didn't learn a thing.

To comment on a comment earlier on here that Ricki isn't a national coach but is A-League level, I ask what he's done to make him A-League level? He may have a good season this year hopefully, but two bad ones can't make him a competent A-League coach yet surely?

Royal2009-06-18 22:56:13

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

james dean wrote:

The system? Hows that going? Its broken

He looses both jobs, so be it. Hes probably got to deliver with the nix this year. Hope he does. At least he's 'coaching' a better side than currently

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Hard News wrote:

Hang on, so now a part time coach is the solution, how did we get there from 'he can't do both the AW's and the Phoenix job' ?

I think last night was a pretty big reality check...so I am definitely changing some of my long held beliefs

Normo's coming home

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Royal wrote:

To comment on a comment earlier on here that Ricki isn't a national coach but is A-League level, I ask what he's done to make him A-League level? He may have a good season this year hopefully, but two bad ones can't make him a competent A-League coach yet surely?

Hard to say that last year was a bad year

Normo's coming home

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Hard News wrote:

Hang on, so now a part time coach is the solution, how did we get there from 'he can't do both the AW's and the Phoenix job' ?

Based on 4 games a year, it would have to be part time. What decent coach is going to only do a 4 game a year gig?

Your question was answered in the last line.

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Royal, you would have to say hes not at A league but OFC level. Thats not a good thing.

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I remember the issue of what game plan Ricki should be adopting for the Phoenix last season was constantly being debated in the press and on these pages. He got a lot of criticism for playing dull, defensive football which had very limited success, then moved to a more 'attacking' style which saw our results begin to improve. OK, thinks Ricki, that's how I'm going to get the national boys playing.

Is it possible that his tactical thinking has actually become muddied by these dual responsibilities? You'd hate to think it was that simplistic, but I think his decision making shows that he is sometimes slow to accept that he is on the wrong track.

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Stack wrote:

[QUOTE

One thing that has really struck watching the replays of the games has been our lack of "pass and move". Our players seem to make a pass and stand and admire their passes. Every time Spain, Iraq, Italy, South Africa, Brazil etc pass a ball the player who has made the pass moves to new space. Simone Elliott spent so much of his time looking for a player to pass to while his team mates stood their waiting for him to initiate a move. The most important player ont he pitch at any single moment is the player without the ball.

I was thinking exactly the same thing watching the game for a second time tonight. The wing backs basically just look for the lines and never look for the return pass to draw the next layer of defence away. Lochead is a far more capable player than this. I think they have been told not to lose the ball so they only way they pass is the way the are facing which is at Moss- hence the sideways and bacjwards passing. Lochead looks too anxious to move forward.

In the mids, Brown is totally out of his depth. He offers nothing going forward; he is just too one dimensional.

Even when Nelsen and Siggy come back we will still be the same side as we will still rely on route one football as we have no creativity in behind the front 2 (Elliot is playin to deep to fulfil that role).

I would play Bertos at Right mid, James on the left, Wood up front and drop back Smeltz in behind the front two for the game v Iraq. They honestly wouldn't lose much on defence and would add a little zip going forward. And Ricki should play right wing back like he did in 82.

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Hard News wrote:

Hang on, so now a part time coach is the solution, how did we get there from 'he can't do both the AW's and the Phoenix job' ?

Ultimately, we need to be focussing on the group of platyers who will become the AWs in 2020, there is very little hope for this group of players, no matter who we have coaching us.

Normo's coming home

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Don't we need to focus on everything. The now creates the future

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Another option I was thinking of was a young, inexperienced coach at the Phoenix (Aloisi for example) supported by a more experienced foreign coach who is also in charge of the national team. Something like a director of football role.

I don't hold the belief that just becuase someone was a good player they will be a good coach (and there are plenty of examples to back this up) but I do think that someone like Aloisi would be a good option if we get rid of Herbert from both roles (and if he leaves one, he has to leave the other - we cannot have a coach who is not good enough to coach against Fiji but can do A League, or is not good enough for Perth but can take us to the World Cup).

All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

auskiwi wrote:

Don't we need to focus on everything. The now creates the future

There is a school of thought that we have to trim some areas to focus on others because of the limited funds we have. Maybe that is abandon the current All Whites and dspend the money on the yoof initiatives needed, or funding a decent national league solution, or developing the current players U-20.

Not saying I advocate that, but the truth is we barely have enough $$ to run club football in this country let alone the lofty ambitions of the 3 key problems with the game here.

How's my driving? - Whine here

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

The All Whites have been the focus for a number of years, that hasn't worked. Maybe it's time to have another look. Someone needs to take a lead though, will be very interesting to see how Mr Glading responds after the tournament, he's the boss, I want to hear what his vision is for the enxt 5 years.

Normo's coming home

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Hard News wrote:

auskiwi wrote:

Don't we need to focus on everything. The now creates the future

I bet there is! Lets hope that thought is not inside NZF. If so they should be sacked.

Get a program, get some " ice to eskimos' sales people ( yeah they want that ice bad ), then sell it and of course the best part, deliver the program.

What else is there to do?

If we don't get some real motovated professionals in the game , there is no hope

Its a business, and if I was a share holder, I'd be voting for their heads

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

You've used a lot of metaphors there but can you set out exactly what should be done and by whom? It's a bit unclear...what is "the program" and who does it need selling to?

Normo's coming home

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I have just got back from spending some time in Italy and I was staggered at the quality of the training facilities that the small town soccer clubs have. 3/4 size floodlit artificial pitches were common every where we went.

I arrived back and have been taking my son to training on a mud patch and as it gets dark the car headlights are as good as it gets.

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Hardly suprising is it ?

An entrenched sport 100 years old that captures the heart of a nation with a MUCH larger population vs a small population and a sport that despite the highest participation numbers ranks 5th or lower in funding and the hearts and minds of the media - if not the people.

How's my driving? - Whine here

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

james dean wrote:

You've used a lot of metaphors there but can you set out exactly what should be done and by whom? It's a bit unclear...what is "the program" and who does it need selling to?

Not so many metaphors

But Im sure you could answer that yourself

And of course I can't lay out here a complete change to the systems and thought processes they currently use.Sure as I'm not going to start it at 10.40pm with a 6.00am meeting tomorrow. Anyway for the answer it deserves I would have to give up my day job, which is planning and implimenting change for mutual benefit ( even the sacked ones, they don't belong and are better off doing something else). So, planning, going in, planning, swapping the dead wood for focused key people and then creating a culture of positive thought and action.

Obviously they have to package a system that creats demand, and sell it, to ... everyone, yes everyone. A move from politics to a business that doesnt leech off its own, but has the abilty to help the game and itself to stand and claim its part in a multi billion $ business.

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Without a National team to look up to, Why would the youth want to keep playing football? So they can join the Denmark national team or play for Scotland or Greece?.

You cant find success off the pitch without a good national team on the pitch. I just dont get why everyone want to go back to the DARK DAYS........
How f**ked is that - and poets like HN recommends it?
Where on earth does a Mens National team come last?.

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I think the point there Convict is, after consistent investment put into the Mens National Team, it hasn't produced results.
With limited budget,the suggestion is NZF may be better to put its efforts more solidly into youth/age group coaching and teams, sacrificing the current Mens National Teams level of support to invest in players for future National teams.NZF apparently can't do both effectively.
By improving skill base of NZ youth players across the board we'll eventually get better quality players more capable of competing internationally.
Fair point- where's the inspiration if National Team isn't supported? Tell Kids the truth! They can see their own National Team isn't cutting it ..right now at least.Giving our youth the resources and skills to improve and compete may not be gratifying in the short term for us but in the long run may serve NZ football a lot better.

Improving,,on the up, a work in progress from Italiano and the Nix. Bring on the bathroom bling in '24! COYN!

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I think that there is certainl an argument that the current poor performance of the National Team harly gives young kids much inspiration

No idea what the best solution is but it's AN argument

BTW - auskiwi, I still have no idea what you are talking about

Normo's coming home

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Hard News wrote:

or developing the current players U-20.Not saying I advocate that,here.

The trouble is big fella that you cant develop under 20 players, they are baked, they are cooked, their ability is where it will always be. You might get another 5% out of them but they are what they are. The money has got to go to the 5-12's. Everything flows forward from there. Giving a Skoda a ferrari paint job doesnt change the fact its a Skoda. We have to build the engine first.

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

All this talk of abandoning the senior mens team and pouring more resources into the yoof reminds me of when we lost to Vanuatu at the last WCQ's (or was it the Solomons.I can't remember. I blocked that particular pain). That was all the talk then, to. People changed their minds quickly once the senior team posted a result or two (Wales etc.).

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

matty.j wrote:

People changed their minds quickly once the senior team posted a result or two (Wales etc.).

And that's part of the problem - we get a half-decent result every once and a while and everyone starts thinking we're doing OK. Like for example after the Italy game, even though it was very obvious even in that game that we had significant deficiencies. But the 3 goals got everyone euphoric.

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Hard News wrote:

auskiwi wrote:

Don't we need to focus on everything. The now creates the future

It is obviously a very difficult, multifaceted problem HN, with no quick solution available. I know you have lots of knowledge and experience of the game here, so would be interested in your views, if your willing, on the best realistic way forward over the long term, say over the next decade and beyond.

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

For mine, not just coaching.

everything got cut off by the SA's, when we'd play it up to half way, the next pass was cut off or woeful. Their defense all over the park was impressive, and our marking really lets us down on fast breaks in defense, bit too much ball watching.

Can't put any coaching plan into play when you're giving the ball away all the time. Most of our possession held in the defensicve third, Moss must have had as many touches as the other players!

The constant back passing and pass-returning was frustrating, as no danger to the opposition comes of that and led to bigger chances of being cut off. That is something that is coached, but abilities to attack while retaining the ball, that's up to the players. Both to blame there.

It's the old story too, if you don't have Ricki as coach, who is as experienced? What other NZ coaches have had success with Men's teams? I'd suggest debatably that he may not have been when he started, but is now NZ's most experienced. He was the best option when he started also. Rather than ragging on him, suggest an option, who would you like to see coach given cost constraints?

There is no guiding light, NZ is and probably always will be average due to player and coach numbers to select from, availability, and limited funds (otherwise I'd say get Hiddink

). I think the prob is we all don't look at the reality, though there is nothing wrong with hope. The Italy game showed you what belief and hope can do to an average side (the Italians still far outplayed us, their quality was immense, we just converted our chances, thankfully)

They're my team though and I'll always watch 'em when I can (free to air). Bring on the WC playoff..

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Win big Wednesday jackpots once a year for the next ten years.

Honestly ? It's got me beat. The game needs more money than it can possibly raise, and how do you decide what's more important ? The national side which is your flagship ? The future of the game and the future of that team ? A competitive National League to bridge the two and engage the general populace ? Better facilities for eveyone playing the game ?

All this in an environment where economies and companies are collapsing and grant money is harder to get.

I can offer my thoughts on where all these things could/should go, but damned if I can work out how the F**k we pay for it.

How's my driving? - Whine here

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

el grapadura wrote:

I know it was a practice game but at least against Italy we were stringing great passes together and making good movement off the ball, and this, against a team that has a reputation for being extremely defensive. Passing and movement was almost nonexistent against SA.

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Before we throw the All Whites overboard, as some on this thread suggest, let's rethink where we're at with our playing stocks in terms of this recent FIFA relaxation of the rules.

This would immediately make more overseas players available for the AWs.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=652502&cc=3436

Not a long term fix, but a couple-or-three seasoned pros like Rory Fallon, plus the return of Ryan Nelsen, could be enough to get us through the upcoming World Cup qualifier, and help make a better impression if we're back in South Africa next year.

Just remember what 1982 did for football. Every kid in the country wanted to be an All White. Okay, I exaggerate, but our appearance in the World Cup finals with a team that didn't embarrass us could do wonders for the game here.

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Just on the coaching and structure thing. In Chch many clubs have "club pros" often the senior coaching staff and they are responsible for coaching the juniors as well. Also know of some using indoor facilities. My experience here is that some (not all) are receiving a pretty good level of coaching and facilities, that would more than match what ive seen in my travels overseas. I think the problem for these kids is that they may not be exposed to the professional game enough, and we are not centralising the talent enough. The reality is we will only produce very few good players so these good players could benefit from playing with each other as often as possible. Also focussing on results at a junior club level is atthe detriment of development. The kids should just be playing and training most days either in a team environment or at home. This comes down to passion for the game and i think that would come from more exposure to top level football.

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

auskiwi wrote:

james dean wrote:

You've used a lot of metaphors there but can you set out exactly what should be done and by whom? It's a bit unclear...what is "the program" and who does it need selling to?

Not so many metaphors

But Im sure you could answer that yourself

I don't have any real answers so I just use big words a talk a lot of sh*t.

Fixed.

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I really don't understand those of you who say the players are not good enough. Not good enough for what? Not good enough to match Spain obviously but we should not even be playing Spain.

What I would like to see is regular games against realistic opposition, the second tier in Asia for example, where the vast majority of players also play in their own domestic leagues. An A-League golden boot, a Celtic squad member, EPL debutant, a couple of MLS players and a Ryan Nelson should absolutely be good enough!

Besides, in the short term we have what we have. But the problem is that we are not playing to the potential of that group. The potential level might be still getting beaten by the likes of South Africa and Iraq, but I would at least like to see a spirited performance where we at least try.

To me it seems much of the problem is one of attitude. The All Whites have turned into a friendlies team, but at a tournament they appear to have matches lost with an underdog mentality before they even start a match.

I am flabbergasted by comments by Ricki Herbert, as covered by Terry Maddaford in the Herald. He would like to frame the Spain match sheet and put it on his wall??? Is he a serious international coach or a schoolboy fan? If he is happy watching Spain play why doesn't he just stay home and turn his TV on? And expressing pride at just being there??? WTF?

We need a coach that will at least be motivated by more than just turning up, and a professional sports pyschologist.

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Nelsen

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

typo, sorry.

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

SC03 wrote:

Attitude? You think that attitude is the problem? It is far, FAR more extensive a problem than that. This idea that every time we get beat is because we didn't try hard enough, at that level it's just so much more difficult than that.

I think you're being a bit hard on Ricki. The players are happy swapping shirts, that's the same thing for him. Let's get real here, for any coach it would be a major thrill matching up against Spain. Peripheral

Normo's coming home

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I did not say that attitude is the whole problem, I said that it's a part, but a significant one.

Any successful sportsman in any sport will tell you how important the right psychology is.

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

So what are you actually saying is wrong with the attitude that we approached the game with?

Normo's coming home

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