All Whites vs Ukraine | Wed 11th June | 8:00am (NZT) | BMO Field (Toronto, Canada)

juneof86

 

So I’ve seen 4 ½ All Whites matches in the past six months or so. And I feel like maybe I’m going too far in a negative direction, but here’s my thought…. 

 

I don’t think I’ll get much argument here that the best AW players are Bindon, Surman, Crocombe, Stamenic, Bell and Wood. After that I’d make a case for Cacace, Boxall and probably Rufer. I think come the World Cup there will be at least one match where I’d say Bazely should go 4-2-3-1 with three attacking players behind Wood. But I also think there will be at least one match where I’d get all of the above on the pitch together and go with a 5-3-2 with Rufer, Bell and Stamenic. 

 

It’s very conservative, but that’s going to be a hard midfield to play through. If you can force the opposition to the flanks, I like your odds with Surman, Boxall and Bindon in the air and they’re very sharp defending in and around the area either way. There won’t be a lot created in attack, but with Wood and the quality of your set pieces, you might be able to nick one. And I hopefully you can still hold your share of possession with that midfield. 

 

Secondary question… has Cacace or de Vries ever played right back? I love de Vries’ set piece delivery and crossing, but Cacace is the better player on the whole IMO. But it seems like there’s no obvious right back solution… could they both get on the pitch as fullbacks? And I don’t know who plays off of Wood. Just? Old? Garbett? I think I’d lean to one of those three with Old maybe being my favourite of that bunch at the moment. I’ve never seen Rogerson, but a fair few of you seem to rate him ATM. 

 

My two cents. Am I being too cautious and not rating your attacking players highly enough? As I say, I’m not saying do this every match, but I think there will be a time and a place for it next June. And I would rather find a way to get Boxall and Rufer on the pitch ahead of McCowatt or Singh (though I’ve seen flashes out of Singh). 

I really like your first point. 

I like to see it either with Stamenic as a ten or with Bell or Rufer sitting deep and the other two with license to push forward. Or if they’re good enough, whoever has the opportunity to push forward pushes. 

Singh got muscled off the ball and was given the ball back to goal too much for my liking. He looked much better in the minutes when he was picking up the ball much deeper and directing play from there. IMO. 

Cacace and de Vries is a live discussion. I think Bazeley has actually made a good observation (based on his selection choices) that de Vries is not a good enough defender at the top level. He lacks a little pace. This rules out what most of us want to see- Cacace playing as a forward as he sometimes did for Empoli this season. 

Cacace is just such an explosive and unpredictable player who might have an x-factor against a top level opponent. 

On the other hand we saw Old, de Vries and Cacace on that left wing. It’s cluttered and lacks Rogerson arriving in the box or at the back stick. 

Old is not a striker. He’s a guy who can carry the ball out of midfield or through defenders. 

Who plays off Wood? McCowatt, Kosta, Waine, Mata, (Dyer) and maybe Garbett…
Just, Old and Rogerson should be wider.

So I think one big issue for us is Singh. Very, very few teams in the world play a proper old fashioned #10, it is a luxury that nobody can indulge in. Yet we do. Singh has/had the potential to be brilliant but he hasn't played consistently enough for years and he simply isn't good enough to be indulged as a starting #10 at the highest level. I am really hoping he is replaced by Thomas who will form more of a 4-3-3 three man midfield with Stamenic and Bell.

Whether we do that or stick with the 4-2-3-1 (and I am sorry to the many that keep bringing it up on this forum but we aren't going to be switching to a back 5 full time, Bazeley has been very clear about this on multiple occasions), we are still going to need to figure out the two wide forward positions. McCowatt, Just & Garbett have had enough chances. Would like to see more of Old, Cacace, Rogerson & Kosta in these positions. I personally think Cacace at LW and Old at RW is the solution. I know Old hasnt impressed much for us yet but he has had so few chances and I believe when he is playing regularly in France he will be able to show his best for us. 

And I think that Payne is our best right back by some distance. Bindon is a brilliant all-around footballer but just hasn't spent enough time at RB to play the position effectively and unless he plays a lot there next season he isn't the answer. Payne is head and shoulders above the rest. And de Vries is more than good enough to be tried at left back. We just saw Tuiloma at right back ffs! I think there is a widespread feeling on this forum that people in the A-League aren't good enough and it is crazy. Australia play plenty of A-League players and Payne and de Vries are every bit as good as any of them. 

Would love to see this XI in October:

Crocombe
Payne Surman Bindon de Vries
Stamenic Bell Thomas
Old Wood Cacace

If De Vries starts at the WC we don't get a point. Bloke cannot defend at LB in a international back 4 and Bazeley appears well aware of that.

Far better off starting the guy who is, by an absolute mile, our best LB and putting an attacking midfielder in front of him.

How is it that AFC had the best defense in the A-League if FdV can't defend? Can you offer any evidence for your claim that he can't defend? An instance of a goal conceded due to sloppy defending from him, or something?

Edit: Nelfoos lives in some bizarre fantasyland where Bazeley astutely determined de Vries couldnt possibly defend at international level but somehow couldnt tell that Tuiloma was utter dogshark without playing him first

Nelfoos

If De Vries starts at the WC we don't get a point. Bloke cannot defend at LB in a international back 4 and Bazeley appears well aware of that.

Far better off starting the guy who is, by an absolute mile, our best LB and putting an attacking midfielder in front of him.

100% agree. Fdv had a good A league season but we have a serie A LB....  why would we weaken our D this much. The benefit some see isn't worth it. 

de Vries had the best defensive pressing midfield in the competition covering him in the A league. Plus he was a perfectly good A league LB, but perhaps a little slow against Elanga, Pepe, Adingra and some of the other absolutely top notch wingers we’ve played against recently. 
In Bazeley and Nelfoos’ defense - we’ve had a season of watching de Vries, but Tuiloma’s abilities haven’t been on display that much. De Vries often did get done for pace and took yellows retreating. A clever footballer easily able to compensate for lack of pace at A league level, but less so at Champions League level!

And yeh agree on Singh. He can’t play as a ten. He needs a free role almost in possession but starting deeper and I’m not sure where that leaves him in defense. However, many of the players around him are technically very good footballers now and both Bell and Stamenic can run a midfield when they’re on form. Let alone Thomas etc. 

I really like the Cacace and Old idea. That means Rufer or someone covering de Vries somewhat depending on the opponent. 

Just is a good finisher, but not much in between. Garbett needs to play every week. He’s not sharp. McCowatt has been good and scores goals. Remember how good both those teams defenses were. Champions league good imo. That’s a chalk for all outside Cacace and Wood on paper.

Payne has had a good couple of seasons. We haven’t looked at Kirwan or Wilkins recently. Maybe they’re as good as de Vries? Roux had a couple of very good seasons too, remember. And 2 years ago we thought Kosta was too slow and finished (edited)  at international level. 

Form and success at any level changes things. Where did Smeltz come from? A mastermind of our 2010 attacks. If Dyer is in form and got some recent muscle memory of where goal is he might be a shout too. 

The problem is we haven't had anyone be convincing to date in our LW and RW positions while every other part of our team is functioning well. Cacace played LW a lot in Serie A this season. Something else has to be tried, something has got to give, otherwise we won't reach our potential. 

edit: this was in reponse to elemenop

My ball and player knowledge is definitely not as good as the other people on this forum but I think a back 3/5 has to be tried.

We’ve got 3 in form centre backs and I personally think both Cacace and especially Payne are better as more attacking wingbacks. 

Having wingbacks also allows us to bring on FDV further up the pitch for the last 10-20 mins if we’re chasing a game. And for the FDV and Payne defensive critics, they’ll both be partially covered for and their defensive frailties might be less exposed.

Also allows us to maybe overload the middle of the pitch, giving us more options between midfield and attack?

We’ve got a whole year to experiment, the current attacking approach isn’t working so we should try something new

imanixsupporter

The problem is we haven't had anyone be convincing to date in our LW and RW positions while every other part of our team is functioning well. Cacace played LW a lot in Serie A this season. Something else has to be tried, something has got to give, otherwise we won't reach our potential. 

edit: this was in reponse to elemenop

Going off recent windows I'd say Eli Just is making himself a nailed on starter

Did you watch the Ukraine game? Both Just and Garbett were almost invisible. It was a really good goal he scored against Ivory Coast but I don't understand how anyone could think he is a nailed on starter when looking at his overall performance in the window just gone

The All Whites played a back 5 from when Herbert took over until after Baze took over. Between 2011 and Baze switching to a back 4, we were awful, just awful to watch. We have been so much better to watch with a back 4, and we have improved results against Oceania teams and now our first win against decent opposition since 2010 too. I dont understand this mad desire to go back to a back 5.

Fortunately, Baze is on record several times, including in the most recent window, that the back 4 system has been agreed upon by both the coaching staff and the players and the intention is to stick with this system and work on it because there is not enough time in the international game to chop and change between systems. This approach is clearly bearing fruit and as a result there is no chance Baze is going to do an about face now.

But who knows, if we lose our next 4 games in a row then Baze might start with a back 5 in November

Skyzaid

My ball and player knowledge is definitely not as good as the other people on this forum but I think a back 3/5 has to be tried.

We’ve got 3 in form centre backs and I personally think both Cacace and especially Payne are better as more attacking wingbacks. 

Having wingbacks also allows us to bring on FDV further up the pitch for the last 10-20 mins if we’re chasing a game. And for the FDV and Payne defensive critics, they’ll both be partially covered for and their defensive frailties might be less exposed.

Also allows us to maybe overload the middle of the pitch, giving us more options between midfield and attack?

We’ve got a whole year to experiment, the current attacking approach isn’t working so we should try something new

martinb

Wow, I just realised we played two awesome high level games and there were no fax issues or passport issues, just two cracking games of football! 

Thanks Canada, Ukraine and Ivory Coast, we really enjoyed the party! 

Not entirely correct. Crocs ETA never came through so NZF had to do a lot of faxing around to get it sorted

What do you base that assessment on? I didn’t see him outclassed in the A League.

Nelfoos

If De Vries starts at the WC we don't get a point. Bloke cannot defend at LB in a international back 4 and Bazeley appears well aware of that.

Far better off starting the guy who is, by an absolute mile, our best LB and putting an attacking midfielder in front of him.

Napier Phoenix

What do you base that assessment on? I didn’t see him outclassed in the A League.

Nelfoos

If De Vries starts at the WC we don't get a point. Bloke cannot defend at LB in a international back 4 and Bazeley appears well aware of that.

Far better off starting the guy who is, by an absolute mile, our best LB and putting an attacking midfielder in front of him.

Based on Bazeley not trusting him at LB, and based on the fact that he's a bit of a traffic cone on defense. You can get away with that in the A-League, but you can bet it'll be exploited at a World Cup.

Yeah tend to agree that FDV is an excellent crosser but in my opinion not anywhere near Libby levels of skill or talent, I think at international lvl he would quickly get exposed just on his lack of pace. And incase anyone thinks it’s just because FDV is an Auckland player I don’t rate him, if there were someone playing rb/rwb at a higher lvl than Payne I’d want them starting, I’ve quite often been a fan of Kirwan getting another shot……. Maybe I jinxed him?

I think a lot of people on here write players off simply because they play in the A-League. But Australia who are a much better team than us play A-League players all the time and do quite well with them. Had two current (at the time) A-League players start in their wins at the World Cup in 2022. Had multiple A-League players starting throughout their recent successful qualification campaign where they avoided defeat home and away against regional heavyweights Japan & Saudi Arabia. I think this anti A-League sentiment is Eurosnobbery plain and simple.  

At the end of the day, Cacace could get injured and FdV is the next best option we have at left back so it would be wise to give him a run at some point. I think he will prove himself to be reasonably solid when he does. I am not saying he is better than Cacace but there is every chance that he is a more effective as a left back at international level than how effective Garbett/McCowatt are at LW at international level, certainly if you look at how Garbett and McCowatt performed over the last two windows. And if that is the case, moving Cacace to LW (where he has plenty of Serie A experience) could easily prove a net benefit to our team. 

Just thinking of our lack of depth beyond Wood up front.....in another world, Monty Patterson and Myer Bevan could have been those guys.

Rusty Dunks

Just thinking of our lack of depth beyond Wood up front.....in another world, Monty Patterson and Myer Bevan could have been those guys.

A way to go yet, but who knows. Besides Mata and Waine, in the long-term (beyond next year’s WC) we could have several other back-up options for Wood and when he does eventually retire in the form of Donkers, Colloty, Redfearn, and maybe Faulds.

Greive can also earn his spot back if he cracks on in the USL, potentially earning himself a spot back in a decent league or maybe even interest from an MLS club. Hasn’t been in a matchday squad for a few matches now, is he injured? Currently on 2 goals in 10 games overall.

Dyer as well, in great goalscoring form, hopefully just one and done for him in the LOI.

Tend to agree. Before his knee injury, De Vries was playing at a decent level in Europe, certainly higher than other starters whose lack of pace, strength or whatever failing seems to be forgivable by many on here.

The A League is a decent comp, and I think the youth set ups are under rated. A lot of Aussies and Kiwis moving to bigger leagues now at even younger ages.

Kosta is the Wood backup unless Waine gets a move to a League One (or equivalent or higher) level club and plays regularly and gets goals. Nobody else is going to force their way in at this late stage. 

HattyCW

Rusty Dunks

Just thinking of our lack of depth beyond Wood up front.....in another world, Monty Patterson and Myer Bevan could have been those guys.

A way to go yet, but who knows. Besides Mata and Waine, in the long-term (beyond next year’s WC) we could have several other back-up options for Wood and when he does eventually retire in the form of Donkers, Colloty, Redfearn, and maybe Faulds.

Greive can also earn his spot back if he cracks on in the USL, potentially earning himself a spot back in a decent league or maybe even interest from an MLS club. Hasn’t been in a matchday squad for a few matches now, is he injured? Currently on 2 goals in 10 games overall.

Dyer as well, in great goalscoring form, hopefully just one and done for him in the LOI.

Keegan Kelly one to watch imo.

Friar Tuck

HattyCW

Rusty Dunks

Just thinking of our lack of depth beyond Wood up front.....in another world, Monty Patterson and Myer Bevan could have been those guys.

A way to go yet, but who knows. Besides Mata and Waine, in the long-term (beyond next year’s WC) we could have several other back-up options for Wood and when he does eventually retire in the form of Donkers, Colloty, Redfearn, and maybe Faulds.

Greive can also earn his spot back if he cracks on in the USL, potentially earning himself a spot back in a decent league or maybe even interest from an MLS club. Hasn’t been in a matchday squad for a few matches now, is he injured? Currently on 2 goals in 10 games overall.

Dyer as well, in great goalscoring form, hopefully just one and done for him in the LOI.

Keegan Kelly one to watch imo.

Forgot about him, hopefully he can earn a move to the MLS NP/selected by an MLS club like Ronan.

imanixsupporter

I think a lot of people on here write players off simply because they play in the A-League. But Australia who are a much better team than us play A-League players all the time and do quite well with them. Had two current (at the time) A-League players start in their wins at the World Cup in 2022. Had multiple A-League players starting throughout their recent successful qualification campaign where they avoided defeat home and away against regional heavyweights Japan & Saudi Arabia. I think this anti A-League sentiment is Eurosnobbery plain and simple.  

At the end of the day, Cacace could get injured and FdV is the next best option we have at left back so it would be wise to give him a run at some point. I think he will prove himself to be reasonably solid when he does. I am not saying he is better than Cacace but there is every chance that he is a more effective as a left back at international level than how effective Garbett/McCowatt are at LW at international level, certainly if you look at how Garbett and McCowatt performed over the last two windows. And if that is the case, moving Cacace to LW (where he has plenty of Serie A experience) could easily prove a net benefit to our team. 

Poppa named 9 ALM players in an extended 26 man squad for the two June games. I'd would say pretty much all of those 9 are in the 'elite' level of A League players. Arzani, Bos, Teague, Borello, Behich, Tilio, Trewin, Caceres & Taggart.

Many of those guys have played in Europe before. Some like Arzani and Bos about to head there. Tilio who knows. Only Taggart at one of the smaller struggling ALM clubs.
https://aleagues.com.au/news/socceroos-squad-fifa-world-cup-qualifiers-kasey-bos-aziz-behich-marco-tilio-kai-trewin-daniel-arzani/

But of the 9 only Behich started against Saudi.
Behich, Teague (off at HT) and Borello started against Japan.

I'd definitely yes, would put FDV in that elite ALM player grouping. He had a great season with the team that won the Premiers Plate. He's unquestionably now the 2nd best AWs LB, and potentially an important member of the World Cup squad. A real impact sub. 

But I agree with Nelfoos, that he has some defensive wekanesses that at a World Cup could be badly shown up. I remember AFC's game away at Adelaide. Admittedly it was very late on in energy sapping heat, but de Vries got burnt for speed on the counter by Adelaide's young attackers.

At the World Cup, the AWs first & foremost need to be watertight and hard to breakdown. It was the cornerstone of their two games in June - the Tuiloma experiment at RB against Ivory Coast the exception. But you get the defensive system rock solid and you try to build your attack off that.

FDV coming on as a left winger like his impressive 10 min cameo against Ukraine, 100% deserves another go, and greater mins next time. HIm doing that and Libby staying deep, could be a Bazeley masterstroke if the AWs are chasing a goal. It hopefully allows FDV to get foward more, whip in those dangerous crosses to the Woodsman, but still keep the AWs with luck strong at the back, especially against a fast counter.

Credit to Baze & Elliott I think they got their subs pretty right against Ukraine. I liked both FDV as a winger, and also Boxall & Surman staying forward for periods at the end. Bell as a deep sweeper. De Vries needed to be on earlier, but Wood being on limited mins a factor in all that.

Lets see what happens in Sept.

HattyCW

Friar Tuck

HattyCW

Rusty Dunks

Just thinking of our lack of depth beyond Wood up front.....in another world, Monty Patterson and Myer Bevan could have been those guys.

A way to go yet, but who knows. Besides Mata and Waine, in the long-term (beyond next year’s WC) we could have several other back-up options for Wood and when he does eventually retire in the form of Donkers, Colloty, Redfearn, and maybe Faulds.

Greive can also earn his spot back if he cracks on in the USL, potentially earning himself a spot back in a decent league or maybe even interest from an MLS club. Hasn’t been in a matchday squad for a few matches now, is he injured? Currently on 2 goals in 10 games overall.

Dyer as well, in great goalscoring form, hopefully just one and done for him in the LOI.

Keegan Kelly one to watch imo.

Forgot about him, hopefully he can earn a move to the MLS NP/selected by an MLS club like Ronan.

Luke Supyk actually looked pretty good with his holdup play, for NZU20s game two in Chile. Picked up an unfortunate injury and then Kelly came on, put in a dangerous low cross. From the resultant corner NZ scored their goal.

Have higher hopes for them than Colloty and Donkers from the 2023 U20 team.

Hopefully Jonty Bidois can get more mins for AFC this season. Even if as seems likely Auckland sign a visa 9, with Max Mata gone Bidois should get opportunties.

I sometimes wonder where Myer Bevan's career might be, had he gone through Weenix, rather than a BS 'academy' like Nike. Was Ben Waine a manifestly better younger player than Bevan? Sliding doors, roads chosen and all that