How to improve the All Whites leading up to WC 2030?

126 replies · 6,137 views
24 days ago · edited 24 days ago · History
Yes, because the tournament is held annually and at the end of PSL, European seasons there are many PSL and European scouts watching for new talent. Bafana defender, Ime Okon (21), started his international career in the COSAFA Cup then got signed for Hannover. Then went to a World Cup. There are many such stories. 

The Olympics are every 4 years. Yes I understand that you might think these countries might not add value but when you see the results, it's a different story..

In November 2023, Lesotho held Nigeria to 0-0 in a World Cup 2026 qualifier in Uyo, Nigeria

Angola defeated Nigeria 1–0 in the group stage of the Africa Cup of Nations 2006

Zambia won the Africa Cup of Nations 2012 by beating Ivory Coast on penalties after a 0–0 draw in the final, one of the biggest achievements in Southern African football history.

Zimbabwe held Algeria to a 2–2 draw in the group stage of the Africa Cup of Nations 2021.

Mozambique drew 2–2 with Egypt in their opening match at the Africa Cup of Nations 2023 (played in 2024), with Mozambique conceding only a late penalty. 

Angola topped a group containing Algeria and Burkina Faso at the Africa Cup of Nations 2023, including a 2–0 win over Burkina Faso



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24 days ago
coochiee wrote:
27 yr old Liam Jordan who obviously spent some years living in NZ played for Sth Africa in the 2017 COSAFA Cup so I think cap tying him to SA.

These days he plays for Piteå IF in the Swedish 3rd tier. He had few seasons at Helsingor in Denmark with Just & McCowatt 

NZ fortunately gets its U17, U20 and U23 (Olympics) sides regularly into World tourneys. Not sure there is much extra value in our U23s playing Malawi, Botswana and Mozambique 
I think there's value in the U23s playing as many competitive games as possible.

Valley FC til I die?

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24 days ago · edited 24 days ago · History
I think so. 

It's a very competitive tournament with countries selecting their top players including those from Europe or MLS. For many countries, winning this competition is the only silver their national team will get. So there is a lot of pride involved. 

Let say you select the team from the National League or OFC. How can that not add value? There are real opportunities for some of these players to earn Pro contracts if they perform and get a look in with the All Whites.

The biggest problem with national team coaches is they lack courage to select the young, unknown talented player. That's why they tend to select the old, tired European based players. Tournaments like the COSAFA Cup gives coaches real evidence that players can compete at a higher level.
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24 days ago
NZ national team coaches lack the courage to select young unknbown talented players?
Strongly disagree with that just because, the pool is so small. National coaches are fully aware of all the players in pro environments (ALM or overseas) as it ain't that taxing to track them all. The scouting of a small talented young players pool ain't difficult. The undiscovered gems out there are thin on the ground.

A NZ team made up of National League or OFC Pro League guys - if that is your pool of unknown talent players - would get slaughtered at the COSAFA Cup.

Yeah with reflection if the AWs can't get entry to the Gold Cup, or some sort of AFC/OFC combined Nations League (top division A with bigger East Asia teams) the COSAFA Cup could be useful.

Proper competitive games with results on the line are the matches the AWs lack. I see it's typically played during the mid-year window across late June and July. COSAFA members are Angola, Botswana, Comoros, Eswatini (Swaziland), Lesotho, Madagascar, Malawi, Mauritius, Mozambique, Namibia, Seychelles, South Africa, Zambia and Zimbabwe.

Maybe some years you could take a below strength experimential AWs team, and every 4th year (Olympic years) the U23 OlyWhites. I see the 2028 Olympics football tourney is to run July 7th - July 29th, so in theory that team could play some COSAFA Cup games enroute to Los Angeles?? That's assuming that the Olywhites qualify for LA 2028 via OFC, but hard to ever see that not happening bar another eligibility clusterfudge.

Certainly worth consideration, but I hope the AWs can somehow get into stronger competitive tourneys between World Cups. I'll forward the Saffa's idea to the NZF CEO.
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24 days ago · edited 22 days ago · History
There is also a new comp happening for ASEAN nations in Sept-October window (remembering that is now a 4 game window).

FIFA ASEAN Cup. Not to be confused with the regularly played ASEAN Cup (or AFF Cup) happening from July 24 to August 26 (not a FIFA window).
The ASEAN/AFF Cup is organised solely by ASEAN Football Federation (AFF) outside of any FIFA remit.

Looks like the FIFA ASEAN Cup is another Infantino baby.
The tournament would feature a total of fourteen teams split across two tiers, with Jakarta hosting the Division 1 matches (8 teams), and Hong Kong hosting the Division 2 (6 teams).

First phase AFC 2030 WC qualifying is scheduled to start March 2027, so looks like the FIFA ASEAN Cup won't be played in 2027, and maybe not again until 2029. Pity NZF didn't wrangle an invite for Sept-Oct this year, since seems good FIFA ranking points on offer.

https://asianews.network/asean-football-to-enter-new-era-with-fifa-asean-cup/

Because the FIFA ASEAN Cup falls on FIFA international match dates, its matches will carry more ranking points than previous ASEAN Cup matches held outside FIFA windows – giving Việt Nam, coached by Kim Sang-sik, an important chance to improve their FIFA ranking.

The FIFA ASEAN Cup is scheduled to be played on a biennial (every two years) basis, running in alternating years with the traditional ASEAN Championship (often referred to as the AFF Cup).

The inaugural edition of the tournament is officially planned for the FIFA international match window from September 21 to October 6, 2026. This newly approved, FIFA-operated competition is designed to boost regional FIFA ranking points and will feature a two-division format: Division 1 (hosted in Jakarta, Indonesia) and Division 2 (hosted in Hong Kong).

Because it operates on a two-year cycle, the next iterations are anticipated to occur in odd-numbered years following the 2026 launch.
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24 days ago
"The biggest problem with national team coaches is they lack courage to select the young, unknown talented player"

Mate I think you miss read that comment or I didn't put my point out there correctly. Probably my fault. 

It was a general comment to all national team coaches. The World Cup is a case in point. There are too many 30 something stars that are past their sell by date getting selected because they were a star inst ad of a young quality star. The "unknown" part is in the coaches mind, this player is good but I don't know how he will perform in international football. So they select the old,tired star instead of taking a risk on the young player. 

I hope that clarifies things but it's probably mud.
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dairyflatscribbler
22 days ago
I've been waiting for this one...

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22 days ago
coochiee wrote:
There is also a new comp happening for ASEAN nations in Sept-October window (remembering that is now a 4 game window).

FIFA ASEAN Cup. Not to be confused with the regularly played ASEAN Cup (or AFF Cup) happening from July 24 to August 26 (not a FIFA window).
The ASEAN/AFF Cup is organised solely by ASEAN Football Federation (AFF) outside of any FIFA remit.

Looks like the FIFA ASEAN Cup is another Infantino baby.
The tournament would feature a total of fourteen teams split across two tiers, with Jakarta hosting the Division 1 matches (8 teams), and Hong Kong hosting the Division 2 (6 teams).

First phase AFC 2030 WC qualifying is scheduled to start March 2027, so looks like the FIFA ASEAN Cup won't be played in 2027, and maybe not again until 2029. Pity NZF didn't wrangle an invite for Sept-Oct this year, since seems good FIFA ranking points on offer.

https://asianews.network/asean-football-to-enter-new-era-with-fifa-asean-cup/

Because the FIFA ASEAN Cup falls on FIFA international match dates, its matches will carry more ranking points than previous ASEAN Cup matches held outside FIFA windows – giving Việt Nam, coached by Kim Sang-sik, an important chance to improve their FIFA ranking.

The FIFA ASEAN Cup is scheduled to be played on a biennial (every two years) basis, running in alternating years with the traditional ASEAN Championship (often referred to as the AFF Cup).

 
The inaugural edition of the tournament is officially planned for the FIFA international match window from September 21 to October 6, 2026. This newly approved, FIFA-operated competition is designed to boost regional FIFA ranking points and will feature a two-division format: Division 1 (hosted in Jakarta, Indonesia) and Division 2 (hosted in Hong Kong).


Because it operates on a two-year cycle, the next iterations are anticipated to occur in odd-numbered years following the 2026 launch.
image.png 1.34 MB
I'd honestly expect us to be in the top 3 of this, if not win it.
Supporter of the world's best football teams: Waikato..., Kingz FC, NZ Knights, The Nix, The Argyle & of course the All Whites

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20 days ago
Okay, problems laid out on the table, now here are three ways to fix them...
  1. Get some competitive games outside the Oceania confederation

  2. More players in the best possible club environments

  3. Ensure we’re developing the right profiles of youngsters coming through

The first point is the most difficult because where are we supposed to do about it? New Zealand might be the only nation on the planet mourning the loss of the Confederations Cup... because there’s nothing else for us now. Going back across the last decade, the only non-friendlies that we’ve played outside Oceania were at the 2017 Confeds Cup (lost 2-0 to Russia, lost 2-1 to Mexico, lost 4-0 to Portugal) and then the intercontinental playoffs against Peru in 2017 (drew 0-0 at home, lost 2-0 away) and Costa Rica in 2022 (lost 1-0 on neutral territory). And we don’t even get those any more. Sure there are FIFA Series games and Soccer Ashes and whatnot... but those are glorified friendlies. The more the merrier with them but we still need something else.

One idea that’s been floated around is Gold Cup entry. That’s the North & Central American championships, held every two years, and for the past three editions they’ve included a guest team: Qatar in 2021 and 2023, Saudi Arabia in 2025. South Korea also had a go in 2000 and 2002. Now, if it comes down to a purse bid against those countries then we’re screwed... and anyway Saudi Arabia were invited for two events so they’ve already got the next guest ticket (coincidentally, Saudi sovereign wealth fund PIF is a major Gold Cup sponsor). But they did talk about expanding it from 16 teams to 24 teams last time (with eight guests) and while that didn’t come to fruition then, the idea still lingers. The success of the expanded World Cup might nudge them further in that direction.

Naturally they’d prefer more commercially lucrative invitees but at least the All Whites (and New Zealand in general) do have a good reputation and the World Cup will have helped that. We’ve played a lot of games against CONCACAF nations in recent years (Costa Rica, Mexico, USA & Haiti all within the last five years) so existing relationships are there. We wouldn’t win a bid on capitalist criteria but from a competitive standpoint we’re a fun team that usually loses which is perfect for a guest nation. NZ Football have confirmed that they’re trying to make it happen and if we can get FIFA on our side of the lobbying then you never know.

Copa America, for the South American nations, also tends to invite guest teams. They only have 10 core members and therefore need to fill out the competition with outsiders. Usually they grab teams from CONCACAF but Japan and Qatar have also been included before. That’s another option – especially if Tim Payne makes the phone call. Doubtful we’d have any chance at getting into the Asian, African, or European tournaments since they’ve got way more competitors hence we’d be taking a spot away from one of their own constituents. There are smaller tournaments within those regions though, such as the ASEAN Cup and the Arab Cup. The least we can do is ask nicely.

There’s another (unlikely) possibility that maybe FIFA could mirror FIBA where the international basketball federation still recognises Oceania and factors them into World Cup and Olympic qualification... but since only Australia and New Zealand have competitive teams from that region they’ve otherwise been absorbed into the Asian confederation. The Tall Blacks and Tall Ferns play in the Asia Cup. They play Asian teams in World Cup qualifying. There’s no way FIFA would axe Oceania as a region, nor should we want them to, though maybe merging the Asia Cup and Oceania Nations League could be something to ponder down the line. There are better solutions though. Let’s see that Gold Cup dream come true, that’s the most realistic one (and probably the best competitive level for where we’re at).

Most of a player’s improvements happen during the day in, day out of their club football. At the moment we’ve got a squad full of solid pros but with only Chris Wood currently getting games in a top five European league and only Marko Stamenić having ever played Champions League (and even then only in the group stage). Ben Old (France) and Libby Cacace (Italy) have prior experience in those top five leagues but both got relegated which isn’t really the vibe we’re going for. Joe Bell won a Norwegian title recently, that’s pretty cool. Eli Just and Callum McCowatt had strong seasons in Scotland and Denmark respectively. Okay, sweet, we can work with this... but we need more!

The good thing is that it’s already happening. The wheels are in motion. Jesse Randall has made his move to Dundee United and Tim Payne even got a surprise one to Club Olimpia in Paraguay. It shouldn't be long until Elijah Just and Finn Surman cash in on their World Cup clout (with the backdrop of outstanding club seasons to vindicate their quality) while the likes of Callum McCowatt, Sarpreet Singh, and Matt Garbett have been rumoured with fresh moves as well. This process doesn’t have to come via new transfers either. Alex Paulsen and Tyler Bindon are already on the fringes of Premier League clubs trying to earn a shot at that level. Marko Stamenić, Liberato Cacace, and Max Crocombe are at clubs hoping to earn promotion to the Prem, going up the divisions the old fashioned way. It’s all about getting our best players in the best club environments possible.

It’s unrealistic to demand Champions League footy for all... that’s not gonna happen. Nor should we want that if the dude isn’t good enough for that level. It’s a case by case basis thing. This idea is more about raising the overall level so that in four years’ time we can pick a squad with six or seven guys in top tier leagues instead of one or two, so that our bench is stacked with European pros rather than A-League guys. No shade on the ALM which is an excellent competition and a great stepping stone for kiwi talent but it was rather obvious which guys in this squad haven’t played anywhere else yet. Plus, like, what we’re talking about here isn’t easy. It takes a fair bit of courage and an insane amount of work, not to mention sustained production over multiple seasons, to earn those kinds of moves... it’s the guys willing to gamble on their own talents that we want carrying the All Whites forward. Gotta encourage the ambition.

Finn Surman on his World Cup experience: “Umm what did I learn? I think I just learned that I can compete with players at the top of the world. There's a lot that I can get better at and that we, New Zealand, can improve on, but overall I'm pretty pleased with how things went in the tournament. I don't believe the gap's too big between both myself and the players that we played against, but also New Zealand and the countries we played against.”

And then it’s just about keeping an eye on the youth development side of things. We’re doing pretty well in those spaces. Having two A-League clubs is helping bolster the numbers and NZ Football has close connections with both Auckland FC and Wellington Phoenix. NZ age grade sides have dipped in how they’ve gone at their youth World Cups across the last couple cycles though that’s not really how you judge those things. The grassroots game is in a decent place. Next year’s National League reform ought to raise the standard there by having the best up against the best much more often. NZF’s Whole of Football 2.0 strategy is already at work.

One area of possible concern is our elite coaching pool. It’d be choice if our various national teams (men and women, senior, U20s, U17s) and professional clubs (A-League and Pro League) weren’t overwhelmingly dominated by coaches with English or Australian accents, you know? Much love to everyone who puts in the work for kiwi football, this isn’t about individuals, it’s just that it might not be a great sign of a healthy footballing culture that more locals aren’t rising into those roles. There are already signs this may be changing though.

Then there are the profiles. Because while the AWs worked extremely hard in those three games... they also got shown up athletically in a few obvious ways: lack of pace across the board, lack of power in attack beyond The Woodsman, lack of dudes who can go 1v1 against defenders. We don’t need a whole team of premier athletes but a couple more to sprinkle in there would make a huge difference. Fortunately, guys like Luke Brooke-Smith and Stipe Ukich are already on the way, strong and quick, with the potential to be ready in four years’ time. Don’t wanna put all our eggs in one or two baskets so we’ll see how things progress across the board. Making sure we continue to develop more of those zippy technicians to replenish the squad without having to revert styles is another focus. Especially since a very disproportionate amount of this squad came through the Declan Edge-era Ole Academy and that’s not been a thing for a wee while now.

The maximalist approach is the way to go: more professionals means more who make it to the top, which means more variety in the types of players that get there. There was a number bandied about during the tournament of 60 professional players from New Zealand... there’s way more than that, that’s just the number that Darren Bazeley always mentions for his long-list of All Whites candidates (which has gone up from a couple years ago when he usually claimed to be tracking around 50 players). But comparative to other countries, it’s a bloody small figure. Let’s make it so that the current number is as low as it’ll ever be again.

Another aspect is that all these ideas are interconnected. By playing at a World Cup, our best players have proved (to themselves and others) that they can hang against the world’s best, which in turn aids their transfer marketability. Making upwards transfers then helps them become more competitive at future World Cups. Getting higher quality games for the All Whites will improve the results, which makes kiwi players more enticing and accessible for clubs around the world. A stronger senior team gives young players more to aspire to, carving out room for them to make their way in the sport. Playing at a higher level increases athleticism, both from the standard of play and also the quality of training and sports science they’re exposed to. And so forth.
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20 days ago
coochiee wrote:
Quality detailed deep dive as always.

https://theniche-cache.com/football/2026/7/9/how-can-the-all-whites-build-upon-their-2026-world-cup-efforts-moving-towards-2030

What Can We Do About It? 
Okay, problems laid out on the table, now here are three ways to fix them...
  1. Get some competitive games outside the Oceania confederation


  2. More players in the best possible club environments


  3. Ensure we’re developing the right profiles of youngsters coming through


The first point is the most difficult because where are we supposed to do about it? New Zealand might be the only nation on the planet mourning the loss of the Confederations Cup... because there’s nothing else for us now. Going back across the last decade, the only non-friendlies that we’ve played outside Oceania were at the 2017 Confeds Cup (lost 2-0 to Russia, lost 2-1 to Mexico, lost 4-0 to Portugal) and then the intercontinental playoffs against Peru in 2017 (drew 0-0 at home, lost 2-0 away) and Costa Rica in 2022 (lost 1-0 on neutral territory). And we don’t even get those any more. Sure there are FIFA Series games and Soccer Ashes and whatnot... but those are glorified friendlies. The more the merrier with them but we still need something else.


One idea that’s been floated around is Gold Cup entry. That’s the North & Central American championships, held every two years, and for the past three editions they’ve included a guest team: Qatar in 2021 and 2023, Saudi Arabia in 2025. South Korea also had a go in 2000 and 2002. Now, if it comes down to a purse bid against those countries then we’re screwed... and anyway Saudi Arabia were invited for two events so they’ve already got the next guest ticket (coincidentally, Saudi sovereign wealth fund PIF is a major Gold Cup sponsor). But they did talk about expanding it from 16 teams to 24 teams last time (with eight guests) and while that didn’t come to fruition then, the idea still lingers. The success of the expanded World Cup might nudge them further in that direction.


Naturally they’d prefer more commercially lucrative invitees but at least the All Whites (and New Zealand in general) do have a good reputation and the World Cup will have helped that. We’ve played a lot of games against CONCACAF nations in recent years (Costa Rica, Mexico, USA & Haiti all within the last five years) so existing relationships are there. We wouldn’t win a bid on capitalist criteria but from a competitive standpoint we’re a fun team that usually loses which is perfect for a guest nation. NZ Football have confirmed that they’re trying to make it happen and if we can get FIFA on our side of the lobbying then you never know.


Copa America, for the South American nations, also tends to invite guest teams. They only have 10 core members and therefore need to fill out the competition with outsiders. Usually they grab teams from CONCACAF but Japan and Qatar have also been included before. That’s another option – especially if Tim Payne makes the phone call. Doubtful we’d have any chance at getting into the Asian, African, or European tournaments since they’ve got way more competitors hence we’d be taking a spot away from one of their own constituents. There are smaller tournaments within those regions though, such as the ASEAN Cup and the Arab Cup. The least we can do is ask nicely.


There’s another (unlikely) possibility that maybe FIFA could mirror FIBA where the international basketball federation still recognises Oceania and factors them into World Cup and Olympic qualification... but since only Australia and New Zealand have competitive teams from that region they’ve otherwise been absorbed into the Asian confederation. The Tall Blacks and Tall Ferns play in the Asia Cup. They play Asian teams in World Cup qualifying. There’s no way FIFA would axe Oceania as a region, nor should we want them to, though maybe merging the Asia Cup and Oceania Nations League could be something to ponder down the line. There are better solutions though. Let’s see that Gold Cup dream come true, that’s the most realistic one (and probably the best competitive level for where we’re at).


Most of a player’s improvements happen during the day in, day out of their club football. At the moment we’ve got a squad full of solid pros but with only Chris Wood currently getting games in a top five European league and only Marko Stamenić having ever played Champions League (and even then only in the group stage). Ben Old (France) and Libby Cacace (Italy) have prior experience in those top five leagues but both got relegated which isn’t really the vibe we’re going for. Joe Bell won a Norwegian title recently, that’s pretty cool. Eli Just and Callum McCowatt had strong seasons in Scotland and Denmark respectively. Okay, sweet, we can work with this... but we need more!


The good thing is that it’s already happening. The wheels are in motion. Jesse Randall has made his move to Dundee United and Tim Payne even got a surprise one to Club Olimpia in Paraguay. It shouldn't be long until Elijah Just and Finn Surman cash in on their World Cup clout (with the backdrop of outstanding club seasons to vindicate their quality) while the likes of Callum McCowatt, Sarpreet Singh, and Matt Garbett have been rumoured with fresh moves as well. This process doesn’t have to come via new transfers either. Alex Paulsen and Tyler Bindon are already on the fringes of Premier League clubs trying to earn a shot at that level. Marko Stamenić, Liberato Cacace, and Max Crocombe are at clubs hoping to earn promotion to the Prem, going up the divisions the old fashioned way. It’s all about getting our best players in the best club environments possible.
It’s unrealistic to demand Champions League footy for all... that’s not gonna happen. Nor should we want that if the dude isn’t good enough for that level. It’s a case by case basis thing. This idea is more about raising the overall level so that in four years’ time we can pick a squad with six or seven guys in top tier leagues instead of one or two, so that our bench is stacked with European pros rather than A-League guys. No shade on the ALM which is an excellent competition and a great stepping stone for kiwi talent but it was rather obvious which guys in this squad haven’t played anywhere else yet. Plus, like, what we’re talking about here isn’t easy. It takes a fair bit of courage and an insane amount of work, not to mention sustained production over multiple seasons, to earn those kinds of moves... it’s the guys willing to gamble on their own talents that we want carrying the All Whites forward. Gotta encourage the ambition.


Finn Surman on his World Cup experience: “Umm what did I learn? I think I just learned that I can compete with players at the top of the world. There's a lot that I can get better at and that we, New Zealand, can improve on, but overall I'm pretty pleased with how things went in the tournament. I don't believe the gap's too big between both myself and the players that we played against, but also New Zealand and the countries we played against.”
And then it’s just about keeping an eye on the youth development side of things. We’re doing pretty well in those spaces. Having two A-League clubs is helping bolster the numbers and NZ Football has close connections with both Auckland FC and Wellington Phoenix. NZ age grade sides have dipped in how they’ve gone at their youth World Cups across the last couple cycles though that’s not really how you judge those things. The grassroots game is in a decent place. Next year’s National League reform ought to raise the standard there by having the best up against the best much more often. NZF’s Whole of Football 2.0 strategy is already at work.


One area of possible concern is our elite coaching pool. It’d be choice if our various national teams (men and women, senior, U20s, U17s) and professional clubs (A-League and Pro League) weren’t overwhelmingly dominated by coaches with English or Australian accents, you know? Much love to everyone who puts in the work for kiwi football, this isn’t about individuals, it’s just that it might not be a great sign of a healthy footballing culture that more locals aren’t rising into those roles. There are already signs this may be changing though.


Then there are the profiles. Because while the AWs worked extremely hard in those three games... they also got shown up athletically in a few obvious ways: lack of pace across the board, lack of power in attack beyond The Woodsman, lack of dudes who can go 1v1 against defenders. We don’t need a whole team of premier athletes but a couple more to sprinkle in there would make a huge difference. Fortunately, guys like Luke Brooke-Smith and Stipe Ukich are already on the way, strong and quick, with the potential to be ready in four years’ time. Don’t wanna put all our eggs in one or two baskets so we’ll see how things progress across the board. Making sure we continue to develop more of those zippy technicians to replenish the squad without having to revert styles is another focus. Especially since a very disproportionate amount of this squad came through the Declan Edge-era Ole Academy and that’s not been a thing for a wee while now.


The maximalist approach is the way to go: more professionals means more who make it to the top, which means more variety in the types of players that get there. There was a number bandied about during the tournament of 60 professional players from New Zealand... there’s way more than that, that’s just the number that Darren Bazeley always mentions for his long-list of All Whites candidates (which has gone up from a couple years ago when he usually claimed to be tracking around 50 players). But comparative to other countries, it’s a bloody small figure. Let’s make it so that the current number is as low as it’ll ever be again.


Another aspect is that all these ideas are interconnected. By playing at a World Cup, our best players have proved (to themselves and others) that they can hang against the world’s best, which in turn aids their transfer marketability. Making upwards transfers then helps them become more competitive at future World Cups. Getting higher quality games for the All Whites will improve the results, which makes kiwi players more enticing and accessible for clubs around the world. A stronger senior team gives young players more to aspire to, carving out room for them to make their way in the sport. Playing at a higher level increases athleticism, both from the standard of play and also the quality of training and sports science they’re exposed to. And so forth.
This was a good read
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20 days ago · edited 20 days ago · History
Niche cache consistently do a fantastic job, coochie posted a key extract but really the whole thing is worth a read.

Valley FC til I die?

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AucklandPhoenixcoochieeHalf a PintLT01+2
20 days ago · edited 20 days ago · History
Amazing job Niche Cache. Excellent study.

There is one thing they missed though which is amazing. The Super Club

If you look at most leagues in Europe, you always have a top club. The club with the most finances to lead the charge and run deep in continental football. Bayern Munich is a perfect example. Porto another. 

Well Egypt has Al Ahly and South Africa has Mamelodi Sundowns. Perennial challenges for the CAF Champions League. Mamelodi Sundowns squad include many South Americans, that can easily play in Europe that compete with South Africans in the 1 St eleven. Thus making South Africans a lot better competitively.  

Now winning the CAF Champions League has become even more lucrative because you going to compete with the Best clubs in the world in the expanded Clubs World Cup. That experience alone beats any small European team a player can sign for and get paid a lot more. For the All Whites the hope is the AFC can make a good run of it in that competition. But that will require top players to support and make a good run of it. 

And what do you know the Egyptian squad includes many Al Ahly and Pyramid fc players. 

Edit: qualification to the Club World Cup is going to be a big draw for smaller clubs looking to attract top players from places like South America. This is why the Phoenix has to get in. I mean if you have the possibility to play top European clubs that is a draw for any player.
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20 days ago
Geez, that’s dangerous ground to venture into this forum Saffa!!

Difficult to achieve in a salary cap league but bloody good point. 



Auckland will rise once more

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Sa
20 days ago
Saffa wrote:
Amazing job Niche Cache. Excellent study.

There is one thing they missed though which is amazing. The Super Club

If you look at most leagues in Europe, you always have a top club. The club with the most finances to lead the charge and run deep in continental football. Bayern Munich is a perfect example. Porto another. 

Well Egypt has Al Ahly and South Africa has Mamelodi Sundowns. Perennial challenges for the CAF Champions League. Mamelodi Sundowns squad include many South Americans, that can easily play in Europe that compete with South Africans in the 1 St eleven. Thus making South Africans a lot better competitively.  

Now winning the CAF Champions League has become even more lucrative because you going to compete with the Best clubs in the world in the expanded Clubs World Cup. That experience alone beats any small European team a player can sign for and get paid a lot more. For the All Whites the hope is the AFC can make a good run of it in that competition. But that will require top players to support and make a good run of it. 

And what do you know the Egyptian squad includes many Al Ahly and Pyramid fc players. 

Edit: qualification to the Club World Cup is going to be a big draw for smaller clubs looking to attract top players from places like South America. This is why the Phoenix has to get in. I mean if you have the possibility to play top European clubs that is a draw for any player.
I can't see it having a greater effect on player development than the players simply moving to Europe if they're good enough after a year or too, which will continue to happen. Club world cup is supposed to be every 4 years, no? Europe will always be the only real way for the All Whites to strengthen
Annual finals disappointment enthusiast.

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Endorsed by
coochieeSouthernix
20 days ago
If Auckland City can attract a player like Emiliano Tade what's stopping the Phoenix? 

You used what you got....for South American and African players, New Zealand is a very nice place to live and raise a family :) 

Qualifying for the Club World Cup and progressing in the tournament is going to bring a lot of cash. 


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20 days ago · edited 20 days ago · History
The CWC is yes once every 4 years. Qualification for the Nix, and AFC is through a different comp the OFC Pro League. ie not the A League.
That's a head scratcher for any Sth American, the Nix may seek to court with a potential CWC carrot.

And how does this really help the AWs be better for the 2030 WC in anyway???  It's a non factor in a NZ context.

Chris Wood talks often about NZ needing to get as many players as possible to join him in a top European league. He's not dissing on the A League, so much as saying the higher level your players are at in club land, the better your national team will be.

Countries like Sth Africa and Egypt have a 'super club' because those clubs have rich owners with deep pockets to match many European club salaries.
Leagues in those countries also ain't salary capped.

If anything it seems that Sundowns contracting and hoarding so many of the Bafana Bafana squad with them playing in the PSL (rather than Europe), hamstrings the SA national team. Egypt who knows. Maybe if they had a more 'streetwise' Euro based squad they would have killed off an Argentina fightback.
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Endorsed by
dairyflatLT01Mainland FCSouthernix
20 days ago · edited 20 days ago · History
coochiee wrote:

Countries like Sth Africa and Egypt have a 'super club' because those clubs have rich owners with deep pockets to match many European club salaries.
Leagues in those countries also ain't salary capped.

If anything it seems that Sundowns contracting and hoarding so many of the Bafana Bafana squad with them playing in the PSL (rather than Europe), hamstrings the SA national team. Egypt who knows. Maybe if they had more 'streetwise' Euro based squad they would have killed off an Argentina fightback.
to reinforce coochie's point on this, you ask a random football fan to name 2 or 3 clubs in Egypt/SA they'll struggle.

imo Auckland City (CWC), us and the emergence of AFC probably makes it easier to name 3 in NZ.

Probably been said but Egypt just sound like a bunch of sore losers too.
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Endorsed by
PK
20 days ago
My question is what's the benefit? What do you aim to achieve by having a Super Club? 

Super Clubs are always going to occur without something holding them back (like a salary cap) and personally I would much rather avoid them. I don't think you've actually named a benefit to having these clubs aside from the fact they can hire better non-NZ players. They often seem more detrimental than anything from what I've seen.
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20 days ago
What's the name of a super club in Azerbaijan? 

People knowing that clubs name is not the point. It's Qarabag by the way and you can have a look at how often they qualify for European group stages. And yes, Mamelodi Sundowns does have a detrimental effect on South African players, like I love to discuss. 

But the facts are the facts, when a club brings in top talent (doesn't necessarily have to be expensive) and the competition for the 1st eleven is high, players improve. 



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20 days ago
Nice work from Niche Cache.
One point I would like to pick up on is that of elite coaching. I remember listening to a post 2010 interview Ryan Nelson gave. He basically said that when into the AW pre 2010 setup he was a little shocked. He said that he had to bang on the table at NZF to raise standards. The normal kiwi way of she’ll be right and we will just make do was never going to work at elite WC level. Fortunately NZF did make some changes. We were also lucky the Rickie Herbert was humble enough to take on advice. Raul Blanco was hired as an expert experienced technical advisor and I’m sure Ricki took on board advice from his senior pros like Nelson and the Godfather.
Which brings us to 2026. We now have almost a whole starting 11 who are in quite high level pro setups. We have 4 guys in the top levels in England, also players in decent leagues across Europe. So they are exposed daily to high level professional coaching.
They then go into the AWs and it is a significant step down in terms of coaching to what they are experiencing in their clubs. I’m not bashing Baze. He’s doing his best based on his limited experience in high level coaching. Basically he comes from age group coaching. Has never even been head coach of an AL side. So when he’s thrown into the white hot atmosphere of a WC his tool box is a little bit empty.
For me our current players deserve better from NZF in terms of providing coaching of at least the level where most of them play. I always hear excuses like we don’t have the money to employ elite coaches. BS every coach on the planet would give their right arm to coach at a WC. It would be a great thing to put on your CV. NZF may not get high end but if you are smart you could get someone experienced who has had senior coaching at a decent club level and been involved in some capacity in a WC, maybe as an assistant or technical advisor.
NZF need to up their game. 
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Endorsed by
Banzai!...AIEEE!!!duKhalil MediaKi+3
19 days ago
Agreed with better standard and quality coaching. 

The good thing is that standards have improved and with most All Whites playing in pro leagues around the world the expectations are high. Plus to coach most pro leagues teams requires a UEFA A or Pro license at a minimum. So that helps.  

The problem is finding that quality coach with a solid resume of achievements and at a price of a couple six packs. 😂 Easier said that done. Look at Amorim at Man Utd. Absolute dogs....

I think FIFA needs to create a coaches apprentice program for new coaches to get their licences and gain experience working in different leagues. Example Woodsy has retired and wants to be a coach. As an Apprentice over the next 4 years his placed in 4 different teams each season, in four different countries as one of the assistant coaches. 

The market is too saturated with poor European coaches who use small markets to build their resume instead of giving local coaches a chance. I think such a programme will really help young local coaches build a firm foundation around the world and get more opportunities around the world. 
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Endorsed by
PK
19 days ago · edited 19 days ago · History
Wood has at this stage ruled out coaching but seems keen on trying his hand in the UK football media

Big problem is the extra badges Kiwi coaches need for the A League. NZF need to lobby APL and/or FA hard to remove that requirement

There is now a clear pathway for Aus coaches. ALM-CSL/J League and then Europe for the very best

There are now like about ten Aussie ex ALM coaches across China and Japan. All getting valuable overseas experience and the next Socceroos gaffer after Poppa will likely come from that cohort. I think the days of an non-Aussie in charge of the Socceroos is over. They have really built some coaching depth in their ranks now.

That’s the coaching pathway NZF somehow need to push. So far we just have Hay following Corica to Japan. And we have a Brit/Kiwi in charge of the Nix, and likely an Aussie to be AFC's new boss.
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Endorsed by
PK
18 days ago
All Whites said to get India in Christchurch in November. (Andrew Voerman). So that should allow some change. I hope they start Tyler Bindon and Alex Paulsen over Michael Boxall and Max Crocombe. Should be a chance to rebuild morale with a win after a World Cup struggle. 
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18 days ago
I’d get Libby next to Woodsy and de Vries, but particularly de Vries, and do some sessions about how he goes about crossing the ball. It’s almost golf right? 


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Endorsed by
coochiee
17 days ago
wonder if Stale Solbakken might now want a change of scene. Buy him a house in Fijordland so he feels at home.....
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17 days ago
Solbakken is probably gonna stay with Norway or get another crack at club football.
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12 days ago · edited 12 days ago · History
Jazzy Jeff said:

I can't see it having a greater effect on player development than the players simply moving to Europe if they're good enough after a year or too, which will continue to happen. Club world cup is supposed to be every 4 years, no? Europe will always be the only real way for the All Whites to strengthen

Sorry mate I didn't see your comment. 

You right simply moving to Europe and other top Leagues is the route to take if they good enough. And smaller European nations are also trying to get their players into the top leagues in the world. 

There is just one problem. As we have seen this World Cup, not everybody that is "good enough" or "young enough" gets to go to Europe or MLS. And this is why most football countries make sure their domestic leagues are strong to give such players opportunities to play and achieve the level necessary for international football. Just like the ALM or PSL or what ever the Egyptian League is called. 

But like every ladder there is one step further until you get to the top. And the top step in every European nation, big or small is the super club. This is the club that wins the league most of the time, qualifies for the champions league and makes a good run of it. Their players are seen in the big competitions and are quickly signed by the big fish( Madrid, Barcelona etc) for a trillion dollars. That is just a fact. 

What people are not realising particularly with this World Cup in the US, is that opportunities to play for European 1st division teams is going to get much harder. Now that the greater US population is plugged into the sport, they going to try to win it. That means more investment and Americans in Europe. The Chinese see the Japanese, and are going to invest even more money than they already were, to get to the top. Yes, even India is going to improve and push their players to Europe. 

All places like Egypt have done is copy the super club model with Al Ahly, Zamalek and Pyramid FC , so has Mamelodi Sundowns. Even though I have real issues with Mamelodi Sundowns, the proof is in the pudding. Bafana Bafana has had better teams in its history, much better and yet this "average Bafana Bafana" squad who were majority Mamelodi Sundowns and Orlando Pirates players got to the 2nd round for the first time in its history. Just look at Egypt's performance with their locally based players.

I would say Melbourne City has a few of these "super club" traits in the ALM but yes I agree it's difficult is a League with a salary cap. The MLS also has a salary cap, but slowly they increasing it to bring in the top players like Messi to improve the standards. It's not about name recognition it's about results. 

Guys this is just the facts. Maybe the ALM doesn't need to follow this model because the Socceroos have proved you don't need it to succeed. 




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Endorsed by
Mainland FC
6 days ago · edited 6 days ago · History
University of Pretoria (Tuks) have released 21 players from their 2nd division squad. Yes that's right, 21. 

They clearly not happy with their 11th place finish last season. 

Any young scrappy Kiwi wanting a pro contract should look into it. Pretoria is a great place to live. Declan Edge should be all over this opportunity for Ole' boys.

https://www.idiskitimes.co.za/mf-championship/official-amatuks-release-21-incl-ex-bafana-man/
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6 days ago · edited 6 days ago · History
Ummmm. Stayed with a mate's family in Pretoria back in early 1999.

We did enjoy playing beach volleyball (well a transplanted beach) whilst having some Castle Lagers, with that big beautiful African blood red sky you get coming on at dusk. And the downtown seemed laid back plus very pretty compared to say Jo'burg. All those lovely Jacaranda trees

But then the host tells us everyone sleeps upstairs and there is a locked gate at the bottom of the stairs. A year or so prior some armed crims broke in and randsacked the ground floor. You just call the private armed response guys and sit tight. Just yet another everyday life in SA yarn. 

I mean good on ADJ for making a football career over in the Republic. Boon and Garrow with their SA heritage and presumably extended families there.

But man as a young Kiwi innocent kid I think there are better places to try your luck. OFC Pro League now a useful comp to try start out in.
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6 days ago · edited 6 days ago · History
That's fine Coochiee but as we all know there are still a large number of players that cannot get in to ALM or OFC.

Tuks is a great club and the university has one of the best High Performance Centres in the Southern Hemisphere.

https://www.up.ac.za/high-performance-centre
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6 days ago · edited 6 days ago · History
Tuks verus Maties (Stellenbosch Uni) is a huge annual rugby game in SA I know that.
I weirdly I think I bought a pair of Tuks rugby socks on my first trip to SA. Purple & red hoops?

Wearing them in Welly once Alan Kent (who some may know, and a very useful rugby player) told me his Saffa flat mate (ex Tuks) had a pair the same.

Anyway yeah if some young Kiwi is game to try play in Pretoria go for it. 
Michael Utting (who's dad was working in SA as an engineer) was the NZ trailblazer in the PSL back in the day.
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6 days ago
Ban the Bazeley Ball style of play. Score a goal and sit back. We have so many players with so much talent yet we continue to have no real game plan other than Bazeley Ball. NZF are wasting the talent they have available. 
Proud to have attended the first 175 Consecutive "Home" Wellington Phoenix "A League" Games !!

The Ruf, The Ruf, The Ruf is on Fire!!

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6 days ago · edited 6 days ago · History
The best thing for the All Whites is to get as many promising players into pro teams. Declan Edge has been preaching it for years.

Norway, Denmark and Ireland have similar population sizes but they have more players in pro teams. Yes, they in Europe and don't have the All Black (their loss) culture standing in the way but regardless there are many Kiwi players left out of the ALM and OFC that are very capable.

And yes, I know, South Africa isn't a "sexy" destination for football vs 3rd tier Swedish football but the league is much stronger than a lot of European destinations. And if you wondering about the strength of the 2nd division don't....

https://www.goal.com/en-za/lists/austrian-club-sv-ried-announce-cape-town-city-s-jaedin-rhodes-as-antonio-van-wyk-s-replacement-we-were-looking-for-a-player-who-could-match-toni-s-strengths/blt78744e64ebe20e89





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6 days ago
LG wrote:
Ban the Bazeley Ball style of play. Score a goal and sit back. We have so many players with so much talent yet we continue to have no real game plan other than Bazeley Ball. NZF are wasting the talent they have available. 
England did the same thing against Argentina... nerves play a part. Baz has done fine. 
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6 days ago · edited 6 days ago · History
Absolutely right about pressure. This is why you introduce midfielders that can hold the ball and dictate play like Mainoo even an off-form Carlton Palmer would have done better. 

Bellingham and Rice are fantastic players but they cannot keep possession and slow down the pace of the game. You 1-0 up, you need to frustrate your opponent like Spain does all the time. Frustration with increased anxiety to equalise leads to mistakes. 

When Bellingham got the ball what was he doing?? He just ran until he was dispossess. Bellingham is not a Toni Kroos. That's Tuchel failure.












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6 days ago
MetalLegNZ wrote:
 LG wrote:
Ban the Bazeley Ball style of play. Score a goal and sit back. We have so many players with so much talent yet we continue to have no real game plan other than Bazeley Ball. NZF are wasting the talent they have available. 
England did the same thing against Argentina... nerves play a part. Baz has done fine. 
And England have been widely panned for it, with most fans wanting Tuchel fired.

Valley FC til I die?

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6 days ago
LG wrote:
Ban the Bazeley Ball style of play. Score a goal and sit back. We have so many players with so much talent yet we continue to have no real game plan other than Bazeley Ball. NZF are wasting the talent they have available. 
England did the same thing against Argentina... nerves play a part. Baz has done fine. 
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6 days ago
England were happy enough after the Azteca. They were only unhappy because they failed to do it properly against Argentina. And they failed to use the resources that they had in Saka and others.

Low block doesn’t necessarily mean 9 behind the ball and everyone deep in the box. 




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6 days ago · edited 6 days ago · History
Saffa wrote:
The best thing for the All Whites is to get as many promising players into pro teams. Declan Edge has been preaching it for years.

Norway, Denmark and Ireland have similar population sizes but they have more players in pro teams. Yes, they in Europe and don't have the All Black (their loss) culture standing in the way but regardless there are many Kiwi players left out of the ALM and OFC that are very capable.

And yes, I know, South Africa isn't a "sexy" destination for football vs 3rd tier Swedish football but the league is much stronger than a lot of European destinations. And if you wondering about the strength of the 2nd division don't....

https://www.goal.com/en-za/lists/austrian-club-sv-ried-announce-cape-town-city-s-jaedin-rhodes-as-antonio-van-wyk-s-replacement-we-were-looking-for-a-player-who-could-match-toni-s-strengths/blt78744e64ebe20e89





 
Comparing populations is a bit pointless.

Norway has a fully professional 16 club league, each club no doubt with some sort of Academy. Their 2nd tier might even be fully pro. We only have two fully pro clubs.

They will be turning out young pro players at like to 8-10 times the numbers we are.

They are also far wealthier than Aotearoa. Almost twice as wealthy. GDP per capita $94,000 USD compared to NZ's roughly $49,000 USD. More money to invest in facilities, top level coaching, academies, youth player development etc etc. Plus of course by just being in Europe the cheap, easy travel for quality international age tourneys and the like.

Ireland and Denmark are also far wealthier countries. The Danish with the top two tiers fully pro (24 clubs combined). The best Irish players just need to take a short ferry ride to find the EFL pyramid with it's 94 pro clubs.

And then yes you have the rugby codes in NZ, taking many of the best athletes.
I'm guessing the winter/ski sports, are the only big rivals to football, for athlete talent in Norge. A bit of handball in Denmark. The Irish yes like NZ have a few competing winter codes (Gaelic and rugby).


Getting a 3rd A League club in NZ will be a big boost. The AWs have for sure been strengthened by Auckland coming in (Randall, FDV, Elliot), and that's only after 2 years. The real improvement will be in 5+ years when some from Van Fitzharris, Vicelich, Prins, Ferguson, Middleton etc break through into Europe and become quality All Whites. 

The OFC Pro League clubs and then hopefully a Christchurch A League outfit are going to broaden that shallow talent base, and just open up more pro pathways.
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Endorsed by
hepatitis
5 days ago
MetalLegNZ wrote:
 LG wrote:
Ban the Bazeley Ball style of play. Score a goal and sit back. We have so many players with so much talent yet we continue to have no real game plan other than Bazeley Ball. NZF are wasting the talent they have available. 
England did the same thing against Argentina... nerves play a part. Baz has done fine. 
And that didn't end well did it? Obviously the system doesn't work.
Proud to have attended the first 175 Consecutive "Home" Wellington Phoenix "A League" Games !!

The Ruf, The Ruf, The Ruf is on Fire!!

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