All Whites, Ferns, and other international teams

Vs Mexico 1st Leg Thurs 14th 9:30am SS2

1684 replies · 195,430 views
over 12 years ago
Leggy wrote:
Buffon II wrote:
Leggy wrote:

Your comment that we could have beaten Mexico etc shows that you have no knowledge what so ever of either football or in this case International football.


Bet you didn't think we could draw with Italy in 2010 either.


Back in your box old man.



Perhaps not, but being a typical dick head you forgot to mention the rest of his comments.
Ha ha Buffy have forgotten more about the game than you will ever know.

Dementia set in early then Leggy?

Must just about be your bed time anyway, another hard day of being a WUM over and done with for ya. Put your feet up and relax.

Three for me, and two for them.

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over 12 years ago
Buffon II wrote:
Leggy wrote:

Your comment that we could have beaten Mexico etc shows that you have no knowledge what so ever of either football or in this case International football.


Bet you didn't think we could draw with Italy in 2010 either.


Back in your box old man.



Perhaps you should read El G's comment, you might learn something.

If you are old and wise you were probably young and stupid

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over 12 years ago

Cut it out you two.

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over 12 years ago

Can somebody just tell me that I don't have to wait 27 years for us to qualify for another WC...

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over 12 years ago

Chris James is only 26. Looking forward, him McGlinchey, Howieson and perhaps Hicks and some of the U17 lads give us plenty of CM options. But still not a DM. Really hope Gulley can step it up.

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over 12 years ago
el grapadura wrote:
Outpost wrote:
threatD wrote:

To be fair, its hard for him to flourish in the Ricky set up. Weemac that is



Exactly. McGlinchey is easily as good, if not better, than many of the creative midfield options I've seen in the Socceroos squad over the last 5 years. But all the skills that make him such a potentially good international player are not prized in Ricki's defensive, non-creative gameplan. He can't defend to save his life and doesn't have much scope to play his natural game when the ball is flying over the top of him.


Hmm, I said I wasn't going to go there, but why not. I get the impression that the opinion of McGlinchey on this forum is inflated quite a bit because we see him mostly playing in the A-league, where he's a very good player. But like I said, A-league is a long way from a good international standard.

Admittedly McGlinchey isn't comfortable in the deeper position he plays for the All Whites, which is the by-product of Ricki trying to turn him into a new Simon Elliott. That clearly hasn't worked, but is hardly the biggest problem McGlinchey faces at this level of the game.

His main issue is a technical one - his ability to control the ball and pass is compromised at this level. He takes too long to control the ball and make his decisions at the same time, which at the highest levels of the game you have to do, otherwise your options get closed down very easily. There were very good examples of this in the game this morning - in the first half, he was invariably either caught in possession, or misplaced the pass because he took too much time to get the ball under control and then make his decision. If you can't do that simultaneously, or at least very close to that, you'll struggle, and he does. His other issue is that he can't live on the ball enough when under pressure to buy himself enough time to make a decision in those type of games (he tried this a couple of times this morning, invariably lost the ball). His passing became better in the second half, as did James' when he came on (although the big difference was that James was able to live on the ball more comfortably), primarily because Mexico dropped their backline much deeper to avoid being caught on the break, which left wider spaces in the midfield areas, and consequently our midfielders weren't pressed as high up the field as they were in the first half. This allowed us to knock it around 35-40 meters away from their goal, although the pressure was ramped up anytime we tried to get closer to their goal than that. Even so, McGlinchey was only completing passes when he himself was under no pressure, and to players who themselves were under no pressure. Now, that's fine - it's better to complete these passes than not - but to be honest, a fair few people on this forum can do that. To be an international quality player you need much more than that, and he hasn't shown it at that level. Not this morning, and not on previous occasions he's played for the All Whites.

I don't want this to sound like I'm bagging him - I guess I'm just using it as an example where our fan base overestimates the ability of a player, and then goes all angsty when things don't turn out well for us because of unrealistic expectations.



Considering that a fairly high percentage of All Whites games McGlinchey has played in have been of a standard probably somewhat less than the A League level I'm not so sure this is true. You're right, at the end of the day you can't blame the coach if he's not controlling or protecting the ball as he should, but clearly an experienced former Socceroo coach has been able to tap McG's strengths and get the best out of him in his set up where ball control, passing and movement are all paramount.

I'm afraid passing and movement are not features of Ricki's style and never will be. It might be that McG has simply reached a ceiling of ability beyond which he wont go, or it could be that he is simply not being utilised in the best way. It's frustrating seeing him underperform for the AWs because you feel that with the right direction and licence to do what he does best he could be a very good international player.
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over 12 years ago

ElGrap - maybe I need to watch it again, but your argument seems to be solely we were not good enough.  Would you not concede at all that we were well below par and conceded some pretty soft goals. Three goals were pretty much gifted and were not from any particular magic from Mexico, more blunders on our part.  Albeit that header into the top corner was a nice finish, how often do you think he expects to get a free header from a corner at international level?  If we had hung in without those bumbles and poor marking the pressure would have been ramping up on Mexico.


Sure we were unlikely to win or even draw there, but I thought we were well below our own standards; tactically and execution, plus relative to player capability.


Maybe significant international opposition has given us too much respect in the past and not put enough pressure on our technical ability, but we've played and looked much better individually and as a team against some pretty good opposition in the past.  Not saying we are wonder boys, but today we looked really off the pace, whereas other big matches we have definitely shown more, held more possession and strung more passes together.  i thought we were at a low across the park.  Maybe altitude.  But i am struggling to agree this was all just basic skill level.  i think we were tactically poor and our execution of the tactics was naive.  We clearly got at least one player selection wrong.  And we had a heck of a lot of ball watching and lack of tracking and marking going on when it counted.  


It just seems to me that writing these guys - and this performance off - as being as good as we get is wrong.  We have played better and can play better.  That is what is disappointing.  I'd be the first to admit we missed Nelly and Winston big time.  But it seemed to me quite a few of the goals we gave up were pretty simple errors, not a lack of technical ability, pace or athleticism. 


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over 12 years ago
Doloras wrote:

Chris had better score a goal to make up for it.



Ha a Chris did!
Supporter world's best and worst football teams: Waikato/WaiBop, Kingz, Knights, Phoenix, The Argyle, The Whites & the All Whites

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over 12 years ago
Luis Garcia wrote:

Chris James is only 26. Looking forward, him McGlinchey, Howieson and perhaps Hicks and some of the U17 lads give us plenty of CM options. But still not a DM. Really hope Gulley can step it up.


People keep forgetting that Christie is only 30. 

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over 12 years ago
Ryan54 wrote:

LOL - this has nothing to do with Frank Van Hattum. Overall ,he has done a good job I think. At least NZ Football i run semi competently now.



?????  Um lets see... not hosting the OFC Nations Cup for a starter... not sacking Ricki after Nations Cup...
Supporter world's best and worst football teams: Waikato/WaiBop, Kingz, Knights, Phoenix, The Argyle, The Whites & the All Whites

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over 12 years ago
Buffon II wrote:

I think the saddest thing is that when we scored we could barely celebrate it. I mean, had we scored first or sometime early in the game we could have at least had a moment where we went mental.



Those of us watching it in London did, the Mexican's even joined us!
Supporter world's best and worst football teams: Waikato/WaiBop, Kingz, Knights, Phoenix, The Argyle, The Whites & the All Whites

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over 12 years ago
Bullion wrote:
Spud wrote:
brettdale55 wrote:

So Herbert got us to Bahrain in 2010, apart from the Bahrain game, part of his legacy has to be "He never WON us

a game that was important. Im so pissed off at Ricki right now, if we had of gone forward and lost like this, fair enough

but steve summer got it right, the game was lost because of Herberts tactics in the first half, Possession was 81-19.

How the hell did Herbert expect to hold them. Fire Herbert and Frank Van Hattum, those were shocking tactics, its not

so much the results, that was probably always going to happen, but to let mexico dictate the game, because of your own

ego, well that freakin sucks herbert.  Worst coaching in the history of sport, you cant park the bus against mexico, you

shouldnt have  picked christie, you tell the players theyre allowed to dribble and  you dont kick away the ball as soon as 

they get possession. This is on you Herbert, clear and simple. He should've done the decent thing and quit after new caldeonia.


+1

Don't plus 1 that. Ricki has achieved many firsts for NZ Football. Though someone else will be needed to help us progress past where Ricki has taken us.



TBH I think Ken Dugdale did more to improve us, and Dugdale's and Waitt's boys played better football then most of the squads put together by RH.
Supporter world's best and worst football teams: Waikato/WaiBop, Kingz, Knights, Phoenix, The Argyle, The Whites & the All Whites

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over 12 years ago · edited over 12 years ago · History
U037 wrote:
threatD wrote:

God Vicelich was terrible. AND HOW WERE MEXICO WINNING ALL THE HEADERS?

Players that should never play for the All Whites again:

Vicelich

Durante

Bertos

Lochhead

Christie

Vicelich and Bertos suspended for Wgtn, so I doubt we'll see them in an All Whites shirt again.

And as for Christie I'm sure he's a nice bloke, a humanitarian, loved by small children and puppies but he can just fuck right off!



RIP Ivan, you were my hero as a teenager (13), even now in my early thirties you kind of still are; you were a great servant to the game, pity your last game wasn't your best and nor were the tactics, the other players or the coaching staff.

As he is banned in Wellington I'm sure yesterday (UK time) was his last AW game.
Supporter world's best and worst football teams: Waikato/WaiBop, Kingz, Knights, Phoenix, The Argyle, The Whites & the All Whites

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over 12 years ago
Colvinator wrote:

Funny that Herbert said he wanted to play CONCACAF team because they are weaker than Asia.



With our and Jordan's results, maybe Asia might be open to us joining them in the final round of games, better coin for NZF too over the longhaul.
Supporter world's best and worst football teams: Waikato/WaiBop, Kingz, Knights, Phoenix, The Argyle, The Whites & the All Whites

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over 12 years ago
brettdale55 wrote:

Apart from making the 2010 world cup and the bahrian game, what is herberts legacy?


"He never WON a game that counted"



He's lead us through some serious spankings over the last 8 years, especially against Central/South American teams.  Still he was in charge of our greatest result of modern times, Serbia 0-1 NZ.  I will never forget that game being there.
Supporter world's best and worst football teams: Waikato/WaiBop, Kingz, Knights, Phoenix, The Argyle, The Whites & the All Whites

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over 12 years ago
stormin wrote:

Why the hell is Christie playing ,a player that's had no club for 2 years can get a game in a world cup play off beggar belief ,surely a player that's playing football regularly must be a better bet .

 



Many Mexican's last night were asking me where "Unattached" were based!
Supporter world's best and worst football teams: Waikato/WaiBop, Kingz, Knights, Phoenix, The Argyle, The Whites & the All Whites

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over 12 years ago
hepatitis wrote:
el grapadura wrote:
hepatitis wrote:
el grapadura wrote:
2ndBest wrote:

Far too much angst in here. Not sure what people expected. Always going to be a tough battle regardless of the team selection, formation and strategy.

 

QFT


Too much angst ? Pffft
Yes it was always going to be tough. Are you  saying you are happy with the "let them come to us easily and then try and win the last ball" tactics ?

So you're saying that players who can barely string three passes together and can't attack with good structure against New Caledonia and Tahiti should have gone out all guns blazing against Mexico?

Interesting.


Did I say that ?  Are you saying we dont have players that can string three passes together ??


We cheered in the pub when we strung 11 passes together in the second half.  We were kicking for territory in the first half!
Supporter world's best and worst football teams: Waikato/WaiBop, Kingz, Knights, Phoenix, The Argyle, The Whites & the All Whites

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over 12 years ago
valeo wrote:
We knocked it around quite well once Chris James came on, did we not? There is a difference between parking the bus and just hoofing it upfield everytime we got the ball until we went 2-0 then 3-0 down.




I think the Mexicans backed off when Chris came on which helped his game, but he's always played well for NZ.  Just a pitty that his head was a mess when younger as he would have played a lot more for us otherwise.
Supporter world's best and worst football teams: Waikato/WaiBop, Kingz, Knights, Phoenix, The Argyle, The Whites & the All Whites

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over 12 years ago

I am a Hong Kong borned All Whites, I need to work 9am-6pm today, but still I wake up at 4am to watch the game start at 4:30am. It is a disappointing result but still we give a fight, especially in the second half, it is painful when I go to work and tell my colleague who are BIG TEAM fans liked MU or Arsenal to laugh at me you are no hope, but because I support the All Whites is I love their direct style, I have no regret of it.

Please understand Mexico has a traditonal strong at home, that's no doubt about it, although it need a miracle to qualifier now, but hope everyone can still at belief until next Wednesday's game finish -- win 4:0 and we are in the mix yet again, but of course, what we need to do in next game is even 4-3-3 or 4-2-4, we need to play kitchen sinking football from minute one! Keep the faith guys!!!

Norwich City supporter since 1992, New Zealand supporter since 2010 but without Rory Fallon's winning goal against Bahrain, I won't know about New Zealand Football.

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over 12 years ago
Marto wrote:
brettdale55 wrote:

Apart from making the 2010 world cup and the bahrian game, what is herberts legacy?


"He never WON a game that counted"



He's lead us through some serious spankings over the last 8 years, especially against Central/South American teams.  Still he was in charge of our greatest result of modern times, Serbia 0-1 NZ.  I will never forget that game being there.


Yeah, I know it was only a friendly but we played so well that day. Fantastic result that gave us the belief that we could do something special at WC 2010.
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over 12 years ago
Marto wrote:
valeo wrote:
We knocked it around quite well once Chris James came on, did we not? There is a difference between parking the bus and just hoofing it upfield everytime we got the ball until we went 2-0 then 3-0 down.
I think the Mexicans backed off when Chris came on which helped his game, but he's always played well for NZ.  Just a pitty that his head was a mess when younger as he would have played a lot more for us otherwise.
He's bound to get some game-time in the 2nd leg so hopefully he plays well and makes a strong case for himself and his future involvement in the team.
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over 12 years ago

I hope Ricki Herbert reads his statement about Christie prior to the game. I thought at the time of reading that it was more evidence Ricki had totally lost the plot! How the hell can a player without a team be well ahead of things physically. Can't wait till he is no longer coach and I truly hope a role isn't created for him in administration at NZ Football. Get rid of the old boys network!

http://www.nzfootball.co.nz/index.php?id=11&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=2624&tx_ttnews[backPid]=10&cHash=cf3ff3fcee


“Jeremy is well ahead of things physically and is a player who has worked his socks off and is desperate to be part of the All Whites let alone the starting 11. 

“His marking ability is something which will be key for us and he’s well suited to the role he has been given.” 



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over 12 years ago
Marto wrote:
Buffon II wrote:

I think the saddest thing is that when we scored we could barely celebrate it. I mean, had we scored first or sometime early in the game we could have at least had a moment where we went mental.



Those of us watching it in London did, the Mexican's even joined us!

The Fox went off! i was surprised - I was thinking quick get back and get another and keep us in this...well taken goal, maybe a bit of luck, but luck annoints its own...


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over 12 years ago

I don't think Christie was that bad he cost us that result. 

The miscommunication between Moss and Durante got us started, and then some really shabby marking helped. Though Moss kept us in it from the long distance stuff. 

I think James AND McG combining looked good in midfield, but for some strange reason we kept trying to play through Marco only...rather than giving it to the centre when there would then have been the options of Kosta, Brockie, Rory or Marco in front and the attack could be run from there...

Our defence was weak in the end. It held for thirty minutes, but that shocked our confidence...



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over 12 years ago
terminator_x wrote:

Everybody cheer up. It must be motivational video time...





2nd leg preparation has to be Ricki showing the Riyadh '81 video over and over.

"That's how you get the job done by halftime lads, and we only need 4 this time"

Our Wood(din) may be suspended, but we've still got a young Roux(fer) in the team, and there's still a Fallon on the sidelines.

Piece of cake


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over 12 years ago

Ricki's first invovlement with the AWs was our 4-0 thrashing of Mexico, I'd love for his final invovlement with the AWs to be the same result!!!

Supporter world's best and worst football teams: Waikato/WaiBop, Kingz, Knights, Phoenix, The Argyle, The Whites & the All Whites

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over 12 years ago
mjp2 wrote:

ElGrap - maybe I need to watch it again, but your argument seems to be solely we were not good enough.  Would you not concede at all that we were well below par and conceded some pretty soft goals. Three goals were pretty much gifted and were not from any particular magic from Mexico, more blunders on our part.  Albeit that header into the top corner was a nice finish, how often do you think he expects to get a free header from a corner at international level?  If we had hung in without those bumbles and poor marking the pressure would have been ramping up on Mexico.


Sure we were unlikely to win or even draw there, but I thought we were well below our own standards; tactically and execution, plus relative to player capability.


Maybe significant international opposition has given us too much respect in the past and not put enough pressure on our technical ability, but we've played and looked much better individually and as a team against some pretty good opposition in the past.  Not saying we are wonder boys, but today we looked really off the pace, whereas other big matches we have definitely shown more, held more possession and strung more passes together.  i thought we were at a low across the park.  Maybe altitude.  But i am struggling to agree this was all just basic skill level.  i think we were tactically poor and our execution of the tactics was naive.  We clearly got at least one player selection wrong.  And we had a heck of a lot of ball watching and lack of tracking and marking going on when it counted.  


It just seems to me that writing these guys - and this performance off - as being as good as we get is wrong.  We have played better and can play better.  That is what is disappointing.  I'd be the first to admit we missed Nelly and Winston big time.  But it seemed to me quite a few of the goals we gave up were pretty simple errors, not a lack of technical ability, pace or athleticism. 


Agreed. Yes Mexico were man for man better than us but that doesn't mean we should just accept the result as a fair reflection of the difference between those two teams. We made elementary errors that were just unacceptable for professional footballers (so I guess that lets Lochhead and Christie off the hook) and we waited far too long to try and get anything from the game. This attitude that the result was to be expected just glosses over the things we can and should have done better at. For instance no Christie, Ivan in midfield, and trying to keep possession for at least 3 or 4 passes to give ourselves a breather.

People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis. You can't trust people.

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over 12 years ago
Nommag wrote:

Just posted this in the coach thread too, but oh God, please no: http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/9401554/Defiant-coach-Ricki-Herbert-hits-back-at-critics

Sounds like Ricki might get  a contract renewal.


What I got from that article was we should all leave Ricki alone because of 2010.

Yup. Makes you wonder about how much motivation Ricki actually has for the role, or whether he's just happy to forever ride on his 2010 success

People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis. You can't trust people.

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over 12 years ago
 For instance no Christie, Ivan in midfield, and trying to keep possession for at least 3 or 4 passes to give ourselves a breather.

Agree with the Ivan call, he should have stayed in the middle of the park, and either Siggy/Fitzgerald/Boxall should have gone to CB. We would have had a bit more composure in front of the backline.
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over 12 years ago

Just posted this in the coach thread too, but oh God, please no: http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/9401554/Defiant-coach-Ricki-Herbert-hits-back-at-critics

Sounds like Ricki might get  a contract renewal.


"Ryan Nelsen and Simon Elliott are widely credited with steering the ship at the 2010 World Cup but Herbert said he was responsible for implementing the 3-4-3 system.

"What I don't appreciate, trust me, is there's only one person who made a decision to play a certain way at the World Cup and that was me. Not any players, not any influence from players, but an absolutely dedicated management group that filled that out to a dedicated group of players."'

Unbelievable - Herbert occupies a parallel universe.

The 2010 squad widely perceived that the 3-4-3 system stemmed from the fact that Herbert-Blanco-Turner (the latter described as "seriously retarded" by a senior team member) could not mobilize the collective gonads to inform any of Fallon-Smeltz-Killen that they were not in the starting XI. That non-decision placed incredible pressure on Nelsen, Vicelich and Sigmund who were absolute heroes in Manama, with supporting roles well filled by Bertos and Lochead. Very, very fortunate to escape 0-0 from there, and so the system was perpetuated.

The Emperor was perceived to be naked by the Phoenix owners; hopefully Frank "Cyclops" van Hattum, with eye wide open, will now thank Herbert for his occupancy of the AW supremo role and move on.


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over 12 years ago

Herbert wants more kudos for 2010 (I thought he got a ton of kudos for that) and less angst for everything else. That would be nice.

I like tautologies because I like them.
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over 12 years ago
mjp2 wrote:

ElGrap - maybe I need to watch it again, but your argument seems to be solely we were not good enough.  Would you not concede at all that we were well below par and conceded some pretty soft goals. Three goals were pretty much gifted and were not from any particular magic from Mexico, more blunders on our part.  Albeit that header into the top corner was a nice finish, how often do you think he expects to get a free header from a corner at international level?  If we had hung in without those bumbles and poor marking the pressure would have been ramping up on Mexico.

A key part of being a good player is not making mistake and being on your game for 90 minutes. While our players can do good things, they are consistently good enough, both within a game, and across many games.

Black Caps have the same problems. At times players look world beaters, but they can’t keep that performance up for long period of times. Therefore they are truly on mediocre players.

 

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over 12 years ago
el grapadura wrote:
 For instance no Christie, Ivan in midfield, and trying to keep possession for at least 3 or 4 passes to give ourselves a breather.


Agree with the Ivan call, he should have stayed in the middle of the park, and either Siggy/Fitzgerald/Boxall should have gone to CB. We would have had a bit more composure in front of the backline.

Ivan has been a great servant for the AWs but was well off the pace yesterday. Watch what he was doing during the goals in the highlights. http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/9399684/All-Whites-outclassed-by-Mexico-in-first-leg
  • Goal 1 - drops his man leaving him unmarked in the box which Durante and Moss both scramble to cover and collide, meanwhile he stands in no-mans-land watching the ball as it goes past him to another unmarked Mexican for a tap in
  • Goal 2 - leaves his man behind, gets caught halfway to another player (who Smith can no longer reach because he's tangled with Ivan), and his original player is left unmarked to head in for the goal
  • Goal 3 - Not his fault at all, but I do wonder if a younger model would have been able to turn and get a foot on the cross.
  • Goal 4 - His man jumps all over him and heads in
  • Goal 5 - nothing to do with him
Not trying to blame Ivan for everything, but Siggy should have started. Sure, he isn't the worlds greatest player, but he has been playing reasonably well for the Nix this year, and had pulled out some big efforts for the AWs over the years (e.g. Manama).
On another note, how on earth did Dewhurst go into that match without a print out of who was sitting on a yellow card. First thing I thought when Wood got carded was "Isn't that him out for Wgtn?". The commentators didn't even mention anything until Bertos got carded in the 2nd half when it took them 5 minutes to figure out that he was suspended too.
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over 12 years ago
hlmphil wrote:

On another note, how on earth did Dewhurst go into that match without a print out of who was sitting on a yellow card. First thing I thought when Wood got carded was "Isn't that him out for Wgtn?". The commentators didn't even mention anything until Bertos got carded in the 2nd half when it took them 5 minutes to figure out that he was suspended too.



You are shocked that the Sky football team have no idea?

How's my driving? - Whine here

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over 12 years ago

If I was a Journo I would be interviewing ryan neslen right about now.

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over 12 years ago

If I was Ryan Nelsen id be celebrating retirement right now

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over 12 years ago
threatD wrote:

If I was Ryan Nelsen id be celebrating retirement right now

 

This.

"At the end of the drive the lawmen arrive...

I'll take my chance because luck is on my side or something...

Her name is Rio, she don't need to understand...

Oh Rio, Rio, hear them shout across the land..."

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over 12 years ago
Buffon II wrote:
and 5-1 isn't a slaughter? We were just poor, we were under no pressure and continually did a Vinny Lia and passed the ball straight to the Mexicans. I wouldn' t have minded much if we had gone down fighting, but I am ashamed to be a Kiwi fan on that performance


Are Mexico still rubbish?

Don't be a tosser, you know I never said they were rubbish. I do say NZ were though....
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