All Whites, Ferns, and other international teams

Vs Mexico 1st Leg Thurs 14th 9:30am SS2

1684 replies · 195,430 views
over 12 years ago
el grapadura wrote:
Outpost wrote:
threatD wrote:

To be fair, its hard for him to flourish in the Ricky set up. Weemac that is



Exactly. McGlinchey is easily as good, if not better, than many of the creative midfield options I've seen in the Socceroos squad over the last 5 years. But all the skills that make him such a potentially good international player are not prized in Ricki's defensive, non-creative gameplan. He can't defend to save his life and doesn't have much scope to play his natural game when the ball is flying over the top of him.


Hmm, I said I wasn't going to go there, but why not. I get the impression that the opinion of McGlinchey on this forum is inflated quite a bit because we see him mostly playing in the A-league, where he's a very good player. But like I said, A-league is a long way from a good international standard.

Admittedly McGlinchey isn't comfortable in the deeper position he plays for the All Whites, which is the by-product of Ricki trying to turn him into a new Simon Elliott. That clearly hasn't worked, but is hardly the biggest problem McGlinchey faces at this level of the game.

His main issue is a technical one - his ability to control the ball and pass is compromised at this level. He takes too long to control the ball and make his decisions at the same time, which at the highest levels of the game you have to do, otherwise your options get closed down very easily. There were very good examples of this in the game this morning - in the first half, he was invariably either caught in possession, or misplaced the pass because he took too much time to get the ball under control and then make his decision. If you can't do that simultaneously, or at least very close to that, you'll struggle, and he does. His other issue is that he can't live on the ball enough when under pressure to buy himself enough time to make a decision in those type of games (he tried this a couple of times this morning, invariably lost the ball). His passing became better in the second half, as did James' when he came on (although the big difference was that James was able to live on the ball more comfortably), primarily because Mexico dropped their backline much deeper to avoid being caught on the break, which left wider spaces in the midfield areas, and consequently our midfielders weren't pressed as high up the field as they were in the first half. This allowed us to knock it around 35-40 meters away from their goal, although the pressure was ramped up anytime we tried to get closer to their goal than that. Even so, McGlinchey was only completing passes when he himself was under no pressure, and to players who themselves were under no pressure. Now, that's fine - it's better to complete these passes than not - but to be honest, a fair few people on this forum can do that. To be an international quality player you need much more than that, and he hasn't shown it at that level. Not this morning, and not on previous occasions he's played for the All Whites.

I don't want this to sound like I'm bagging him - I guess I'm just using it as an example where our fan base overestimates the ability of a player, and then goes all angsty when things don't turn out well for us because of unrealistic expectations.

Bloody good post sir.

Grumpy old bastard alert

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over 12 years ago
Buffon II wrote:
Leggy wrote:

Your comment that we could have beaten Mexico etc shows that you have no knowledge what so ever of either football or in this case International football.


Bet you didn't think we could draw with Italy in 2010 either.


Back in your box old man.


I actually agree with Leggy on this one (I think I might be coming down with something). To say we could have beaten Mexico is very ignorant of just who was in our team and who we were up against. We could play that game again 10 times over and they would rock us 10 times again and some of those saves that Moss made, may have gone in on a different day blowing it out even more. We got absolutely destroyed and if not for the performance of Moss, it would have been a worse scoreline.

Grumpy old bastard alert

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over 12 years ago
Jeff Vader wrote:
Buffon II wrote:
Leggy wrote:

Your comment that we could have beaten Mexico etc shows that you have no knowledge what so ever of either football or in this case International football.


Bet you didn't think we could draw with Italy in 2010 either.


Back in your box old man.


I actually agree with Leggy on this one (I think I might be coming down with something). To say we could have beaten Mexico is very ignorant of just who was in our team and who we were up against. We could play that game again 10 times over and they would rock us 10 times again and some of those saves that Moss made, may have gone in on a different day blowing it out even more. We got absolutely destroyed and if not for the performance of Moss, it would have been a worse scoreline.

But do you think the old fella should get back in his box though?

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over 12 years ago
Hard News wrote:
hlmphil wrote:

On another note, how on earth did Dewhurst go into that match without a print out of who was sitting on a yellow card. First thing I thought when Wood got carded was "Isn't that him out for Wgtn?". The commentators didn't even mention anything until Bertos got carded in the 2nd half when it took them 5 minutes to figure out that he was suspended too.



You are shocked that the Sky football team have no idea?

I'm pretty sure that at one point Dewhurst also stated that Chicarito was suspended, amongst numerous other gaffs.
Not knowing who was already on a yellow card for us was a total fail.

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over 12 years ago

He was suspended for the first leg.

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over 12 years ago · edited over 12 years ago · History

threatD wrote:

He was suspended for the first leg.


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over 12 years ago


I'm not sure that many on here are realistically thinking that we could have beaten Mexico on any day at the Azteca. What everyone seems to be saying is one of the following;

 

* Poor team selection

* Poor performances from a number of players

* Poor tactics

* Poor selection for the tactics

 

Granted it's easy to look at poor individual performances after the fact and say things like, 'so-and-so should have started instead', but two unattached players picked over a couple of young guys actually playing football offshore at a decent level and with recent U20WC experience who don't even getting a run out ? Really ?

Gutted for ALL the players and fans, but seriously, NZF need to sort their sh*t out because this just smacks of cronyism on Herbert's part.

 

 

 

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over 12 years ago

Agree too much dredging up past , no thought of the future....

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over 12 years ago

I specifically picked a stream in Spanish so as to avoid Dewhurst.

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over 12 years ago

Article on the Roar today...

How All Whites can learn from Socceroos’ mistakes

Bloody massacres are not uncommon in the drug war zones of Mexico. The 5-1 rout of New Zealand last night will not be out of place on the front pages of Mexican newspapers infamous for having gory pictures.

Watching the All Whites get dismantled by Mexico last night in a World Cup intercontinental qualifier gave me painful memories of past Socceroos failures.

The tactics Ricky Herbert chose to use and the personnel sent out to perform those tasks were just wrong for a number of reasons.

I am not a huge follower of New Zealand football and the last time I watched them play was against Paraguay in the 2010 World Cup.

The reasons I rose early to watch them play are two fold. The big A-League link and I genuinely believed this was going to be tight two legged play-off that would go down to the final whistle in Wellington.

The chance it will go down to the wire is slim to none and the reason for this is down to one man. Ricky Herbert.

The tactics employed by him were conservative at best and ultimately proved super naive.

According to Albert Einstein, the definition of insanity is “doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”.

The failure to change his tactics and formation from the World Cup was a big part of NZ’s undoing.

For one, the Mexican coach would have done his homework but the main factor in the tactics failing was the location of the game.

They worked in neutral South Africa but at the intimidating high pressure but low atmosphere of the Azteca they were doomed to failure.

At 2200 metres, you simply cannot allow so much possession to the Mexico.

Chasing shadows in such rarified air will leave you breathless.

Combine that with using old and underdone players and you have a recipe for a 5-1 reverse.

Australia’s use of overaged players in recent games has hi-lighted how it can undo you.

Ricky had his warning through the Socceroos recent form, he didn’t heed it.

A 37-year-old at CB in Vicelich proved highly exposed as too slow against the swarming Mexicans.

Perhaps the biggest lesson that past Socceroos failures can express is selecting underdone players.

The most painful example of this was when Australia blew two goals to Iran in 97.

On that night there were many players who were short of full match fitness and many analysts have concluded it was a major factor in our undoing.

Selecting club-less players, Tony Lochhead and Jeremy Christie, was a mistake that Ricky paid for.

Leo Bertos was an ok choice for RB as he is fairly quick but again Lochhead was not only underdone but is a fairly slow mover.

Ricky should have trusted the speed and young enthusiasm of Bill Tuiloma at LB to defend against the Mexican speedsters.

When Australia played Iran, Terry Venables picked a young Harry Kewell and it paid off handsomely.

Ricky could have heeded a lesson from this, even he was 21 when the All Whites qualified for their first World Cup.

The idea to absorb pressure was a good one, executing the counter attack failed for three reasons. Playing Chris Wood, not playing Marcos Rojas and an out of sorts Jeremy Christie.

I know I mentioned that underdone players should not be played but for the sake of a successful counter attack you need a technically gifted speedster.

Besides, you can forgive at least one underdone player if he is an attacker.

Marcos showed his technique and speed at Melbourne Victory, he is perfect for a counter attack role. He was the Harry Kewell “gamble” that Ricky should have risked.

Chris James passing was more measured than Mr Christie’s and he could have sent through Rojas nicely. We will never know if it would have worked because by the time those two players were on the pitch, the damage had been done.

Plus the constitution of the game when Rojas came on, saw New Zealand pressing to score and Mexico exposing the space behind.

Another tactic I noticed was a shoot on sight policy.

Not such a bad tactic considering the occasion and rareness of New Zealand attacks.

Again Rojas is an excellent shooter but if Ricky doesn’t use him surely using Shane Smeltz rather than Wood is the better option considering his plethora of stunning A-League goals.

Smeltz was underdone I know but use him for the first half when a goal can make or break a tie.

I must say “Bravo!” to the Mexican gamble to play seven of the Club America team.

Desperate times call for desperate measures and you could do worse than send out a team in full synchronisation.

Heck, Spain is Barcelona incognito.

I really did think the All Whites were a good chance of coming away with a decent scoreline from the Azteca.

Maybe I was foolish but Mexico were in crisis and New Zealand showed they were capable at South Africa 2010 of keeping it tight.

Then again it is the Azteca, a stadium that even Brazil rarely walks away from with points or even dignity.

The other game of the evening was more predictable.

A ruthless Uruguay was always going to be beat Jordan and I even expected Jordan to ship a lot of goals. New Zealand had a more sporting chance but a couple of clumsy goals combined with an inept coaching display and we got an unexpected similar result.

NZ were lucky to face a Bahrain punching above their weight in 2009 and I was jealous of them qualifying so quickly via the intercontinental crap shoot.

2014 qualifying is showing them how lucky they were.

The 2018 World Cup path sees Oceania go through South America and we may well see Uruguay play NZ.

Hopefully New Zealand can heed the lessons from our matches against Uruguay because they certainly didn’t heed the lessons from our past failures.

A-League fans, pray for “The Miracle in Wellington” because our reputation could do with a boost after the “Azteca Massacre”.


Socceroo/ Mariner / Whangarei

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over 12 years ago · edited over 12 years ago · History
terminator_x wrote:
threatD wrote:

He was suspended for the first leg.


Javier Hernandez eligible for El Tri vs. New Zealand

I'm not having a go at you threatD but this is the sort of basic research I would have expected a commentator on the game to have done.


Oh wow. My bad. Could have sworn I read that he was suspended for the first leg. 

And is it right that we play South America next time?
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over 12 years ago
Jerzy Merino wrote:
threatD wrote:

If I was Ryan Nelsen id be celebrating retirement right now

This.

If you have not learned anything from the great Ryan Nelsen is that he never ever gets caught in situations he should not be in. You will not see a comment from Ryan about this until well into the New Year because he is far too smart for that. Muppets like Danny Hay will though.

Grumpy old bastard alert

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over 12 years ago
Midfielder wrote:

Article on the Roar today.. <snipped for the sake of bandwidth>

Not a bad article that one.

Grumpy old bastard alert

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over 12 years ago

makes a lot of sense


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over 12 years ago

we play in  south america for 2018????

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over 12 years ago
Buffon II wrote:
and 5-1 isn't a slaughter? We were just poor, we were under no pressure and continually did a Vinny Lia and passed the ball straight to the Mexicans. I wouldn' t have minded much if we had gone down fighting, but I am ashamed to be a Kiwi fan on that performance


Are Mexico still rubbish?

Don't be a tosser, you know I never said they were rubbish. I do say NZ were though....

Well he is one, always trying to be smart.

If you are old and wise you were probably young and stupid

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over 12 years ago
Midfielder wrote:

Article on the Roar today...

...“Azteca Massacre”.

Thanks Midfielder. Good to read a reasonably objective analysis.

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over 12 years ago
Midfielder wrote:

Article on the Roar today...

I am not a huge follower of New Zealand football 

I genuinely believed this was going to be tight two legged play-off that would go down to the final whistle in Wellington.



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over 12 years ago
threatD wrote:
terminator_x wrote:
threatD wrote:

He was suspended for the first leg.


Javier Hernandez eligible for El Tri vs. New Zealand

I'm not having a go at you threatD but this is the sort of basic research I would have expected a commentator on the game to have done.


Oh wow. My bad. Could have sworn I read that he was suspended for the first leg.


You did read that. It was reported immediately after it was known that Mexico were our opponents that Hernandez was out. Reports a few days later pointed out that this was incorrect.


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over 12 years ago

To be fair ... Oceania simply isn’t a viable confederation.....  the free entry into FIFA tournaments aside from the senior men’s WC creates the greed to keep Oceania … it should be folded into Asia …. and give Asia Five full spots ….

Socceroo/ Mariner / Whangarei

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over 12 years ago
Midfielder wrote:

To be fair ... Oceania simply isn’t a viable confederation.....  the free entry into FIFA tournaments aside from the senior men’s WC creates the greed to keep Oceania … it should be folded into Asia …. and give Asia Five full spots ….

The sooner this happens, the better. 

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over 12 years ago

One thing I forgot to mention yesterday...

There's no way the Azteca was sold out. I could see plenty of empty seats so there was only 103-104,000 there max.

Damn lying Mexicans using the old NPC crowd counting methodology.



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over 12 years ago
Midfielder wrote:

Article on the Roar today...

...Bloody massacres are not uncommon in the drug war zones of Mexico. The 5-1 rout of New Zealand last night will not be out of place on the front pages of Mexican newspapers infamous for having gory pictures...

The rest is ok, but this was not needed.

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over 12 years ago
Arsenal wrote:
Midfielder wrote:

To be fair ... Oceania simply isn’t a viable confederation.....  the free entry into FIFA tournaments aside from the senior men’s WC creates the greed to keep Oceania … it should be folded into Asia …. and give Asia Five full spots ….

The sooner this happens, the better. 



Won't happen.

How's my driving? - Whine here

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over 12 years ago

We will be shit forever then. 

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over 12 years ago

Having read this thread, there are a lot of people that really live in a deluded state of reality around football in NZ and internationally.

Grumpy old bastard alert

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over 12 years ago
Jeff Vader wrote:
Buffon II wrote:
Leggy wrote:

Your comment that we could have beaten Mexico etc shows that you have no knowledge what so ever of either football or in this case International football.


Bet you didn't think we could draw with Italy in 2010 either.


Back in your box old man.


I actually agree with Leggy on this one (I think I might be coming down with something). To say we could have beaten Mexico is very ignorant of just who was in our team and who we were up against. We could play that game again 10 times over and they would rock us 10 times again and some of those saves that Moss made, may have gone in on a different day blowing it out even more. We got absolutely destroyed and if not for the performance of Moss, it would have been a worse scoreline.

I agree to an extent but with Reid, Roux, Tuiloma, a match fit Rojas and Smeltz, and no Christie, Bertos, Durante and Lochhead we could have come close I believe. I don't believe the gap between the Mexican domestic players and our best professional talents is so big. But we needed young legs, pace and a determination to keep possession and press them. Some of this was forced in Ricki, some was his own peculiar stubborn foolishness. The end result has been a setback of the All Whites brand which should be posting better performances, just as the failure to qualify for the last Confederations Cup was. The buck stops at Ricki's door because the raw material is there to do much better.

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over 12 years ago
Hard News wrote:
Arsenal wrote:
Midfielder wrote:

To be fair ... Oceania simply isn’t a viable confederation.....  the free entry into FIFA tournaments aside from the senior men’s WC creates the greed to keep Oceania … it should be folded into Asia …. and give Asia Five full spots ….

The sooner this happens, the better. 



Won't happen.

Why?
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over 12 years ago
Seb wrote:
Hard News wrote:
Arsenal wrote:
Midfielder wrote:

To be fair ... Oceania simply isn’t a viable confederation.....  the free entry into FIFA tournaments aside from the senior men’s WC creates the greed to keep Oceania … it should be folded into Asia …. and give Asia Five full spots ….

The sooner this happens, the better. 



Won't happen.


Why?


A mod said so. 

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over 12 years ago
Arsenal wrote:
Seb wrote:
Hard News wrote:
Arsenal wrote:
Midfielder wrote:

To be fair ... Oceania simply isn’t a viable confederation.....  the free entry into FIFA tournaments aside from the senior men’s WC creates the greed to keep Oceania … it should be folded into Asia …. and give Asia Five full spots ….

The sooner this happens, the better. 



Won't happen.


Why?


A mod said so. 


Could be worse. Leggy could have said so.

Three for me, and two for them.

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over 12 years ago

In before Leggy calls you a prick. 

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over 12 years ago
Buffon II wrote:
Arsenal wrote:
Seb wrote:
Hard News wrote:
Arsenal wrote:
Midfielder wrote:

To be fair ... Oceania simply isn’t a viable confederation.....  the free entry into FIFA tournaments aside from the senior men’s WC creates the greed to keep Oceania … it should be folded into Asia …. and give Asia Five full spots ….

The sooner this happens, the better. 



Won't happen.


Why?


A mod said so. 


Could be worse. Leggy could have said so.

It is worse. Blatter said so.

"At the end of the drive the lawmen arrive...

I'll take my chance because luck is on my side or something...

Her name is Rio, she don't need to understand...

Oh Rio, Rio, hear them shout across the land..."

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over 12 years ago

So someone with even less cred [ or honesty ] than the normal poster on this forum

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over 12 years ago
Buffon II wrote:
Arsenal wrote:
Seb wrote:
Hard News wrote:
Arsenal wrote:
Midfielder wrote:

To be fair ... Oceania simply isn’t a viable confederation.....  the free entry into FIFA tournaments aside from the senior men’s WC creates the greed to keep Oceania … it should be folded into Asia …. and give Asia Five full spots ….

The sooner this happens, the better. 



Won't happen.


Why?


A mod said so. 


Could be worse. Leggy could have said so.

Problem for Oceania teams is the cost. Not so much paying for the men's national, but also having to pay for all the womens and all the age group teams to compete in the Asian Confederation. Australia receives approximately $6 mil a year from the government to help pay for these costs.

The asian World Cup qualifiers starts with most the weaker nations playing home and away qualifiers against each other. By the time pool play starts most of the weaker and poorer nations have been eliminated.

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over 12 years ago
Bluemagic wrote:
Jeff Vader wrote:
Buffon II wrote:
Leggy wrote:

Your comment that we could have beaten Mexico etc shows that you have no knowledge what so ever of either football or in this case International football.


Bet you didn't think we could draw with Italy in 2010 either.


Back in your box old man.


I actually agree with Leggy on this one (I think I might be coming down with something). To say we could have beaten Mexico is very ignorant of just who was in our team and who we were up against. We could play that game again 10 times over and they would rock us 10 times again and some of those saves that Moss made, may have gone in on a different day blowing it out even more. We got absolutely destroyed and if not for the performance of Moss, it would have been a worse scoreline.

I agree to an extent but with Reid, Roux, Tuiloma, a match fit Rojas and Smeltz, and no Christie, Bertos, Durante and Lochhead we could have come close I believe. I don't believe the gap between the Mexican domestic players and our best professional talents is so big. But we needed young legs, pace and a determination to keep possession and press them. Some of this was forced in Ricki, some was his own peculiar stubborn foolishness. The end result has been a setback of the All Whites brand which should be posting better performances, just as the failure to qualify for the last Confederations Cup was. The buck stops at Ricki's door because the raw material is there to do much better.

Responding to this in an unemotive manner I don't think I can agree with most of that.

I don't get why we are calling to throw Strom Roux in there who has had 4 A League games. Far more experienced footballers were down right embarrassed. McGlinchy, near the top of the medal table for A League footballers last year - ineffectual. Yes Roux might have been quicker cause he is younger but also way less experienced. What do you expect him to have done that Bertos could not have done? Durante, fringe Socceroo and now AW. Embarrassed.

The gap between our footballers and Mexican domestic footballers is massive and I believe you are kidding yourself. They played some lovely one touch football in front of our goal that we have not even a shit show of matching with even our best team out there.

 

I just do not get some of this 'football logic' that is being spouted as stuff that should have been done but clearly ignoring facts.

Grumpy old bastard alert

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over 12 years ago

At least all the Americans seem to have given up on us and stopped posting here.

Fucking Yanks, it's their fault we're even in this position. Losing to Panama in injury time, you just couldn't let it lie. If you don't want Mexico at the WC just don't be such a bunch of dipshits.




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over 12 years ago · edited over 12 years ago · History

Re: moving into Asia.


There's also the political element.


For the Island nations, moving into Asia means an even more remote chance of qualification to a major tournament than they have now, but vastly increased cost.


For the Asian nations, even if Asia was split in two, there would be the additional cost of having to travel to places like Honiara to play.


For us, we take on much greater cost for a lesser qualification chance. 


There are just so many factors against it that, even though it might be the best thing for us in the long term, it's extremely unlikely

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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