Hawke's Bay United

To be honest, you really have to come up with more than that. I'm not talking about a master plan but at least give us a better argument than "there are not enough local players in HBU". Anyhting less will only be considered as moaning and not taken seriously.

There is an ongoing conundrum of how we harmonise importation of players from out-of-province with the constitutional remit of a club/franchise to foster football in their own backyard.

Many years ago when I was an active administrator with Waikato FC, I proposed the following to address this:

1. That any summer league player should either be playing within the province, or be intending to play any winter football within the province in the forthcoming season, thereby strengthening the fabric of the code. ie, if they want the benefits of national league for their own development, be prepared to put something back into the region that is giving them their opportunity.

2. Alternately, that any signed out-of-town player should either have a clear history of association, service or heritage with the club/region.

To be fair, some disagreed with this approach. In particular, I recall Declan Edge arguing it was unfootball-like to tether a player to a forthcoming winter season. And he may have had a point. But we need to find solutions that serve the wider code, not just emerging players. 

My personal view is that if the local franchise is being financially supported in a large way by the local clubs/association, they have every right to impose those sorts of 'restrictions' on players taking advantage of playing in the shop window of the NZ game.  The grassroots game paying for the elite level conundrum has been played out many times with many sports. What is the point where its not fair and reasonable to take grassroots money to fund the elite?

Interesting... Not that you should be arguing for Declan, but I would have thought optioning the rights for a footballer to play for a local club was very football-like. 

It might not have been a competitive offer that attracted many players but I don't think it's antithetical. 

The main issue I raise is the fact the money that has been raised by CF through local clubs, parents etc. over the years has been burnt through by HB United instead of re-invested into those clubs and kids.

A small list of how even a fraction of the CF "loan" may have been put to better use:

1) Give HNW some to assist them with their CL campaign - maybe get them an extra couple of players, assist with travel etc. Help them stay up and develop their young players at a higher level for years to come.

2) Give Palmy Marist some to assist them getting back into the CL - again to help them develop playing a higher level.

3) Give TT some so they can actually afford  to put together a team to play in the CL

4) Invest some into local coaching schemes to improve the level of coaching for the volunteers that offer their time and services

To be honest the list could continue with nearly every club getting a bit back for what they have put in. Giving the clubs a bit more stability to perform consistently at a higher level would help the local talent and improve numbers. Example, after 1 year of seeing Josh Murphy play at the higher CL level rather than Prems has provided a big improvement in him.

I've seen blame pointed at Napier for not fielding these young players, but if the region had more teams at NCR's level consistently we would have a larger platform. A larger platform = larger group of players to stand on. A larger group of players who are developed = a bigger selection for HB United. A bigger selection for HB United = more local players.

On another note ..... let's all talk about the brand new HB United ute I saw Shane the GM driving round in.

Impressive motor. I bet that can't have been cheap.

Brilliant response, hard to argue with any of that in my opinion. You just knew that Wanderers would not survive when they answered the late call to enter - they really did well to achieve what they did - more help was definitely needed.

Sponsorship maybe?

I know would have been great if they survived, then made themselves a CL regular with Napier. Then the attention could have been turned to another local club, Marist, Port Hill, Taradale to help them make the step if they wanted to try.

Let's hope so!

I understand that it is sponsorship. The other worry is the HBU Chair driving around in the other HBU owned vehicle.  Bit of a perk?

3-2 win today over hamilton..Looked to be there strongest team out in the first half..Sam mason and ifill up front.Sho, max, cory and dan allan in mid and back line of liam, cam lindsay, joe, +1 import

Can anyone recommend a pub for the Nix game today?

How come Lindsay and Allan have swapped positions? Allan played exclusively at centre-back for Tasman United.

I thought the same also..I dont ever remember cam being a defender

Westshore Beach Inn told me they would have it on.

Westshore Beach Inn said they would.

So, looking at the starting HB line up v Suburbs, 2 players played last winter for Central Football region sides and two more on the bench, again to my original point I made in the paper, what is the point of Central football funding HB UTD if they are not going to be a representation of our region, I don't blame any of the existing players for taking up their opportunity but have to think that we could have put a very competitive side together utilising players from the Central Region teams, Eastern Suburbs lined up with 6 players from a very good West side and it showed, we lined up with a number of the Wairarapa side that finished 8 in the Central league while NCR had two starting players, 3 wins in the last 15 games not a great return for the amount of money that has been invested into the Franchise from local clubs, the franchise has moved away from its original direction of supporting the clubs who help fund and support it, time for both Central football and the Board of HB UTD to take control back from a one person view   

Napier City Rovers always had that magic about them. It's a special club with a great history and an awesome vibe. 

I always thought the whole league lost something when this franchise became the flagship for the region at the expense of a club with a proper tradition and a marketable presence

I think it's fair to say that the HBU franchise, after all this time, has absolutely none of that City Rovers sparkle

I've volunteered for both clubs since we arrived in New Zealand (moved from Canada) in 2015. Started out with HBU for three seasons. This past season was my first season with the Rovers, and I was not sure what to expect.  It tunred out that they are a fantastic club to be a part of. As somoene who is new to both the region and the country, it was amazing to be so warmly welcomed by them. I felt more than just a random volunteer, I met people who were interested in becoming friends outside of games and feel truly part of the Blue family. It truly does have an awesome vibe. I will most certainly be back next season.

He played there at times for Tasman last year. Allan's always been an out and out CB though from what I know, unless he's played further forward for Rapa?

Dan Allan played centre mid for Wairarapa this year with Cam at the back....

Central Football respond to the newspaper article re HBU & debt etc

So once again the "$119k" you have loaned to HBU to create "pathways" is in your words "unlikely" to be repaid. Plus the $60k donation over the last 4 years you forgot to mention.

So let's stop calling it a loan and more of an investment shall we. What return are you getting for your investment? Jorge 90 minutes & Karan 45 minutes after 4 years of that accumulated investment. I think you need to unblock those pathways a bit more Darren.

Also the players "coming of age" is great. However you say the HBU youth team "is full of these players". This is hilarious, it's a regional YOUTH TEAM, haven't they always been "full of these players"? How about promoting some of these players into the first team? Matt Chandler did a better job doing that then the current head coach.

"There is no "money" in playing for HBU but what players do get is the opportunity to play at the highest level in the country and for one of the best, if not the best, coach in the country Brett Angell". This statement is extremely arrogant and naïve, by what measurement is Brett the "best coach in the country" let me talk some more facts for you Darren..............

Angel 72 games, 33 wins 46% win ratio

Greatholder 40 games, 19 wins, 48% win ratio

He isn't even the best coach out of the last 2 HBU coaches let alone the country where we could pull in Jose, Ramon, Declan Edge, Danny Hay, the list could go on and on and on.

These are facts.

does that make Phil Keinzley one of the best coaches in the country?

I thought the letter from the CE was a good one and I can appreciate the points he raised. Dunkin Donut, I'm afraid  your response wasn't as eloquently put and it lost much of its impact because of your passionate language. You're never going to get unanimous support [especially in NZ football] so I see this as more of a clash of philosophy than any huge wrongdoing. Looks like you and your supporters need to stand for CF if you want any change. 

Point taken. I'll let my passion settle down prior to responding in future to enable a more eloquent response.

Maybe I should have left it at my previous list of wrongdoings that gained your endorsement ;)

Everyone on this forum pines for NP's endorsement. 

Be interested to know Matt Chandlers win % if hitting us with said facts.

Agreed, that would be an interesting figure and I'm sure not a good one!

On Chandler though, I was only pointing out that he used to promote youth and local a lot to the first team (Ryan Martin, Dan Ball, William Stanger, Tom Biss, Andy Bevin, Shaun Peta, Marama Thompson, Reiner Bauerfiend, Magnus from Port Hill) to name a few. Granted his record was not up to scratch but he did give out opportunities.

Come on NP

Not all of us have access to a comms department to write our forum posts for us

And you even pulled out that good old chestnut "If you don't like the Prime Minister, you should stand for election"

Have to agree with Napier Phoenix, and as the CE stated it opinions.

I think we all know that players receive money for playing for HBU as they do for NCR, Darren has to say it is an amateur as essentially it is an amateur league that. Yes there are obviously some big fuel bills being paid to the players.

Yes Matt Chandler introduced players into the squad... where are they now? they would be mid/late 20s who are they playing for? Think Willie and Riener had been about a bit before Matt Chandler arrived. Not living in HB or never really made it at national league level, or to old (sorry Willie). Same as the list of players that Brett has been involved with that have left the region.

Interesting the comparisons between coaches, while I am not saying any are good or bad coaches you haven't mentioned what they have to work with. Wellington have just signed Clapham he would not come free, I would think he consumes a lot of petrol! A few of these coaches have a bit more to work with then others. Declan is doing a great job with Ole which is a full time academy, not a once or twice a week FTC (thats another can of worms).  Would be interesting to see if these coaches would get similar results if they had the resources Brett has had.

Agreed, most of them (not all of them) were fantastic players, but not good enough to make the play-offs under Matt. I get the need to develop young players, but you too need a successful side on the pitch to keep fans engaged, (NZ'ers don't support losing teams) sponsors on board and potential ones interested. I feel that too many people make opinions on HBU without realising the world is not perfect and having a successful, locally developed and financially stable franchise in this league is bloody hard work. Perhaps the fact that HBU even exists is testament to some tough decision making and a small miracle. Even the bigger teams such as Wellington were putting an out an SOS to fund their O-League campaign. HBU is not perfect is any sense, but at least we still have National League to watch and enjoy. I bet if HBU ceases to exist you'll up in arms then too. 

Everyone goes back to player development etc - Central Football work to a NZF framework, they have KPI's so if there's something wrong at Central, there must be something wrong everywhere. The clubs have a part to play here too. Havelock North have a focus on developing young local players and that was empahsised through their emphatic performances at the recent Under 19 tournament - but the reality is these players aren't ready to play National League nor are most of the local NCR players who were a part of their Central League team.  At the end of the day I say if the locals are good enough to play, then they should play, if not they shouldn't. Simple. I'd rather we win the National League this season than give a kid who actually isn't good enough and may not even be playing the game in 3-4 years a match.

does HBU play any games games in Palmy or Naki? Maybe they should if those local players are paying for the team

They have played 1 game in palmy for the last 2 seasons

Some good comments here and I certainly respect your opinions. Although disagree with your comment about NCR team as most of them are playing or have played NL? And as Stu James pointed out most of HBU signings played in Central League and finished in the bottom half of the table. But this is just my opinion on players and ability.

My main question based on facts. All this money (factually acknowledged by CF) that has been poured in by them to HBU has essentially done what so far for the region over the years? 

Is it simply to maintain the fact the region has a NL team. If so, how long does this continue for?

I'm referring to their local players. I don't consider James Hoyle, Bill Robertson, Rueben Parker local players as they didn't come through junior football here. Residents yes, Hawke's Bay born and developed? No. That would leave from their starting 11, Josh Stevenson, Karan and Danny Wilson. Karan = good enough and therefore plays. Josh - had his chance and probably isn't National League standard. Danny Wilson I would consider good enough, but is probably at a stage where there are other things that occupy his time. 

NCR are great, they have a great culture and history and they won the league and I think that's awesome because that's what football is about at that level. Do they honestly, truly give locals a chance in their first team though? Probably not as much they've done previously. Hence why they continue to battle away in the Satellite tournament at the Labour Weekend tournament.

That's fair and each to their own with the opinions on playing ability.

Although maybe NCR are looking to do just what you said you want HBU to achieve, win the league they are in by playing the very best players?

The player development debate will be never ending and I've received some good rebuttal on here around it. But still awaiting for someone to justify the money, which is the major concern of the articles, that CF has thrown into HBU over the years and where exactly that money has gone (imports pockets & success on the pitch vs. sustained local talent growth)? Apart from reaching a grand final the success has not shown, and after the weekend result (granted only 1 game) it may not come in the near future?

Exactly why I said well done to them? I don't doubt they're successful, just that 8 of their starting 11 players are not local and that their younger local squad players were used very very sparingly as much as they would debate that. Since Central Football's involvement - Greatholder and Angell era, HBU have qualified for the playoffs 5 out of 6 seasons. Prior to that, Cotton, Gould, Chandler era HBU made zero appearances in the play-offs. That too me would suggest an upturn in performance. 

Khair Jones - A Central Football product is now pro. Harry Morton a Central Football product had a National League club to come home to and play for. Andy Bevin a Central Football product is one of the leagues best. Tom Biss was lured home having played for Wellington and Waitak. These are just some examples. You also have the likes of Fin Milne from Central as captain, Angus Kilkoly was picked up by Wellington but had a club to come home to when Europe didn't work out. I think HBU and the support provided by CF has actually assisted in a number of situations. Don't forget that less than 1% properly make it in the game, so to expect 23 players in HB to be good enough for this level, despite the resources that go in to the game is a pipe dream.

while I don't particularly like the situation in terms of the debate, my question is no HBU then what happens? Do NCR try again? Would they be able to do it? But then we go back to its a NCR club and the rest of clubs in area and from history other clubs in area don't really want that hence reason we have HBU. Saccrfice national league for grass roots and a talent path way? 

Where has the money gone? Guessing Competition entry fee,  Brett is payed as coach and his staff may or may not get paid, funding youth team and staff, The guy (Shane?) Is he full time all year? Payment for accommodation, coaching, fuel for the "amature" players. That would soon add up. Let's remember that spend on players has drop substantially over the last 4 years. 

How much HBU bring in in terms of sponsorship I would have no idea but can't imagine it's enough.