Hawke's Bay United

You did congratulate them, but also questioned their youth policy, hence the comment.

I agree with the players you have listed as being a success story, albeit just a sprinkle of players. I understand only 1% of players 'make it', but that's making it as a full time pro. Realistically our National League is a far cry from that level so we should certainly be getting a higher percentage through the local ranks. I'm not saying the full 23 should be local, but certainly more than there are currently.

My view remains that the money invested in HBU first team would have been better spent with local clubs getting a share of the pot.

Like I say I fully respect your view as a fellow forum poster and obvious football advocate here in the Bay and I'm sure we all just want the regions football to thrive.

I would love to see more local players as well and it's a shame there aren't more. The 2016/2017 season saw 11 Central Football developed players used. I agree the last two years haven't been as fruitful, but I believe there has been a concerted effort to use CF players where possible. 

I agree, everyone is entitled to their opinions and I enjoy discussing the game as I love it. Footballs a game of opinions always has been, always will be and I appreciate your comments and too acknowledge that at the end of the day, I'm sure you want what is best for what is a proud footballing region.

The have played zero in Taranaki, and they never will. 

They are not a CentralFootball side, they are a Hawkes Bay side. While I see the benefit to that side of the CF federation, and hence can understand why CF see a benefit in supporting them, HBU provides nothing at all to Taranaki in terms of player pathway or anything else. Reality is that Taranaki is closer to both Auckland and Wellington that Hawkes Bay. The only way Taranaki gets an in-federation pathway of any sort is if one of the local clubs steps up to Central League following the demise of Team Taranaki. And then maybe years down the track when things get re-hashed and Handa becomes pro/rel there might one day be opportunity for higher level. 

Incidentally, the main reason for the demise of Team Taranaki was the lack of pathway for local kids - best of which leave town for AKL or Wgtn - and the years of giving spots to journeymen, who all suddenly got to an age where they were retiring or no longer wanted to travel due to families - while talented kids became disillusioned by not getting game time and would now rather build their local clubs.

You could go onto the Incorporated Societies site and all will be revealed.  However, I can give you a couple of financial answers you require:

Yes, Shane is full-time.

Coaching fees and training have doubled.  Entry fees $30,000 - thought it was more than that.

Basically income ($173,583) does not get anywhere enough to cover costs ($258,135).  Sponsorship income was $42,783. 

Gets a bit confusing though - the financial statements show an entry "Loan Central Football" $152,233.  The financial notes show an interest free loan from Central Football of $102,000.

As to whether NCR would be interested - that is a decision for our Board if that opportunity should ever eventuate.

There was a time when HBU and NCR had the appearance of being one and the same. While [I think] HBU was set up as a separate entity, all of the same people were involved in running both clubs, they played and trained at the same venue, all of the same volunteers [mainly] did so for both clubs and the coaches were the same too. I was involved on the periphery and with a non NCR club and I know that when wearing the HBU hat - the club management went to great lengths to try and sell that HBU was not just NCR in disguise but a team for the whole province. There was a strong perception by many clubs that it was a NCR old boys club and therefore the team didn't get widespread support from local clubs and supporters. I know that the local kids didn't have that perception and the likes of Maycenvale regularly hired a hospitality tent at games but I don't think there was much buy in from other club administrators except Peter Grant from Taradale [who was HBU chairman].I think that Central Football have always had the local game at heart when it comes to HBU and they essentially took over the running of the club to keep it operational.

There have always been conflicting philosophies on junior football subsidising senior football, grassroots subsidising elite football, clubs subsidising regional franchises and in this thread we have seen the 2 sides to that argument. Personally I am a little torn, the challenge is getting the balance right. If Dunkin Donut's view is the prevailing one in the HB/Central football community, then changes probably need to be made to the HBU model. I wonder if his view is the prevailing one though?  

From what we have seen, as a volunteer (me) and as a fan (my husband), there is a huge difference between being involved with NCR vs HBU. We have only lived in the Bay for a few years, so I can't speak to the history of either club, but NCR are certainly very welcoming open these days. I've had fantastic time working with them, and they really make volunteers and fans feel a part of the family.
Re HBU, I've been stepped away as a volunteer for the time being and will join my husband in the stands. Perhaps I'll return if things improve.

I do know that there are a number of fans who feel disconnected from the HBU. I've been stopped on the street on numerous occasions by people who recognize me from HBU match days and who have spoken about their unhappieness.
I truly hope this can all be sorted, as in the end, we all want footy here to grow.

A number of people have similar feelings towards NCR that you have towards HBU. Local players (which has been the foundation of much of the discussion on this forum recently) feel disconnected with NCR and the lack of GENUINE opportunity provided to them. Napier have been around since 1973 so of course they're going to be more established, have a greater family culture and volunteer base. NCR, sitting in their glass houses I might add, seem to be obsessed with HBU and would love nothing more than to see the club fall over instead of actually accepting that not everything goes there way all the time and that they need to accept decisions that are made. I don't think its a money thing at all, but more to do with the fact a number of their players who aren't even locals anyway weren't signed. Move on.  

I would like nothing more than to see both clubs succeed. Was simply putting forward the observations and experiences of two people new in the Bay who have been a part of both clubs in recent years. I have stepped away from HBU as a volunteer. I think after three seasons, and massive amount of hours, that my move is justified as I was feeling quite frustrated. However, I will still go to games and support the players and the game.

I have been made aware that fans, who stopped me in the street to talk about it, are unhappy with HBU. If you know there are many that feel that way about NCR, fair enough. I can only speak of what we, as total neutrals coming in, have experienced.

Were those people who stopped you in the street, affiliated with NCR by any chance?

Jeez make up your mind. One minute you're complaining and highlighting that the youth don't get a chance, then next minute you're stating that you would rather see better players playing instead of the youth if they aren't good enough.

I think it's a case that NCR feel they can do a better job than what HBU are doing. So probably would want the NL licence back.

And since CF aren't handing out money to the local clubs to help them, have decided to act more as a competition to HBU rather than sit below them and support them. Which I can't blame them for.

The first to approach me was a couple who had only ever gone to HBU games but were re-thinking a return this season. The second was a dude who went to both HBU and NCR games (said he supported both) but was frustrated with a number of things going on with HBU. The third, I do not know as NCR never came up in the conversation.

I encouraged the fans to contact the club and voice their concerns. Whether or not they did is anyone's guess.

ClubOranje wrote:

"The have played zero in Taranaki, and they never will.

They are not a CentralFootball side, they are a Hawkes Bay side"

I beg to differ - they are a Central Football side, based in Napier.  They are certainly not a Hawkes Bay side.

Foot20Ball also wrote "

I don't doubt they're successful, just that 8 of their starting 11 players are not local and that their younger local squad players were used very very sparingly as much as they would debate that.

The only thing I can say is that NCR insist on their players actually living in the area and being part of the Club, both on and off the field, being involved in our academy and the holiday programmes.  Most of the 'imports' stay with us, apart from the ones not wanted by HBU who then move off as they are picked up by other franchises and then by offers from new Clubs.

"Hawkes Bay United are not a Hawkes Bay side"

You're havin' a laugh. Clue is in the name.

Its a little different though, Napier bring these players out with no attachment to any other region in NZ so why would they live anywhere else?. A number of HBU's 'import's are settled here and live and work in New Zealand, have families etc with ties all over the country. Yes they're involved in your academies etc but they do get paid for it and they also get paid 'expenses' to play for the club. Most of the imports stay with you? Where were the imports from 2017 in 2018? And the ones from 2016 in 2017 etc. Yes some may stick around for two seasons but ultimately they leave and they certainly don't hang around like they did in yesteryear. Where is the development and growth in HB with a model like that? How does the club play for your players expenses out of interest?  

So in your opinion, the name means everything.  The side is based in Hawkes Bay only, nothing else.  There is little or no relevance to Hawkes Bay.  Have a look at the number of Hawkes Bay players, that should give you a clue.  Hawkes Bay Invitation XI would be a better name.

I'm having a guess here but I would think through self generated club funds (sponsorship, juniors, bar takings, gate receipts etc). Not through handouts from CF as per HBU which basically mean that all other clubs in the region are helping to fund their 'player expenses'. 

Which again brings us back to the main topic and major concern, the money. Why aren't Port Hill, Taradale, NCR, Napier Marist, Havelock, Eskview etc, etc, seeing any of these handouts to help them improve on their current positions!?!?

Let's ask someone from the clubs above and all their hard working VOLUNTEERS if they could do with $100k+ to help them out?

Foot20Ball wrote:

Its a little different though, Napier bring these players out with no attachment to any other region in NZ so why would they live anywhere else?. A number of HBU's 'import's are settled here and live and work in New Zealand, have families etc with ties all over the country. Yes they're involved in your academies etc but they do get paid for it and they also get paid 'expenses' to play for the club. Most of the imports stay with you? Where were the imports from 2017 in 2018? And the ones from 2016 in 2017 etc. Yes some may stick around for two seasons but ultimately they leave and they certainly don't hang around like they did in yesteryear. Where is the development and growth in HB with a model like that? How does the club play for your players expenses out of interest?

Happy to answer, yes through generous sponsorship, bar takings and gate fees, also through our annual quiz night, weekly raffles and the under 19's tournament, these are all manned by club volunteers, our under 19's tournament there was a roster of members in the tent selling burgers and drinks, every penny helps, the NCR board set the available budget for the Central League side and we work within our means, if Central football are prepared to  help finance HB UTD to make sure there is a pathway to National league then maybe they should be supporting Rovers so the pathway continues for the highest level in winter league football? I think people underestimate the level of the Central league and the demand it puts on both players and volunteers, away games to Wellington are 16 hour days

With regards to the use of overseas players of course I would like to see more young kiwis playing regularly at Central league level but the truth of the matter is that up until last season they just haven't been around the Hawkes Bay, Havelock North did an amazing job with what was a side built for the Federation league, they realised early on that it was going to be a struggle so imported a couple of players from the Islands to help. I think that it is embarrassing that Brett as HB UTD coach has to bring in players from outside the Central Region when he has been the Regional development Manager for the past 10 years, yes the number of kids playing the game has increase (at parents costs) but where is the talent needed to play at central league level? We had 5 of our U19 squad in the Central League set up and they got varied amounts of game time, with a good summer under their belt I am hoping that they can make the step up to regular first team football next winter BUT they need to be at a level to make us competitive, having watched the under 19's over the past weekend I am hopeful that we can bring in another 2 or 3 into the squad? Back to the oversees boys, this year it has been a privilege to have them at the club, our young boys have developed due to these players being here, we have retained a number of them for next season pending any better offers they may get now that they have had to leave the region to play National League, my frustration is that from what I have seen in this HB squad the NCR players not wanted by Brett are as good if not better than what he has, again this is my opinion, but I can't believe that HB UTD have brought in two overseas CB's and not retained Bill Robertson, the cost to do this by HB UTD is huge but because they have been given free money they can do what they like, this was not a player ability decision! Central Football should have put a stipulation on HB UTD to only use players from Central Federation catchment area, if Brett didn't like it then find a new coach or don't give them the money, supporting a pathway for our own region I can handle, what seems to be happening is Brett having free reign to try and win the competition at any cost, last year HB UTD lost $80k, I would imagine it will be much the same this season?  I would Imagine our football friends in the Manawatu and Taranaki are sitting there in disbelief, at least we have some HB players in the set up, Unlike the Central League there is no relegation from National league so perhaps HB UTD should have cut their cloth and consolidated by retaining a number of the NCR players along with the balance from Havelock North? Sorry about the long read but hopefully sheds some light on our setup at Rovers, cheers Stu

last minute equaliser by Ifill gets HBU a lucky draw.

So is Brett in the wrong to sign the best players he feels he can?  Or is CF to blame for allowing him to? He is the coach as is  measured by his results... 

What has NCR youth pathway looked like over the past 4 or 5 years? Didn't Marist have a decent young team last year and Havelock seem to be doing well on that front. Have NCR offered the better young  players in the region the same opportunity? I have been critcical of the NCR local prem team before and it's make up of masters players rather then youth. For the past 25/30years the best player 99% of the time went to Ncr. So to say the players are not there... 

Stu are there every any conversations with HBU more Brett about which players he is thinking about bringing in or you are looking at bringing in? Obviously you would love for him to sign all your imports as likely easier to hold onto them. Do you go to HBU training sessions and watch to id players your wanting?  I know it's hard as different opinions and styles of player but I can't help but feel that relationship needs to be stronger and work closer together. At the moment there doesn't seem to be any of that, which I can understand as they are not the same club.

I think it would be great for NCR to get the licence, the have the strong history and seem to have the next generation of admin  volunteers coming through likes of Geary, Stanger, Willsons all of who grew up at Park Island and understand the history. Appear to be in good financial position and if they haven't already they be far off paying the clubrooms off. Like them or hate them I think that would be best.

Talent pathway in the Bay... the best players need to training and playing with the best players as frequently as possible. Flag school stuff (dreaming) have a HB age group side of 15 16 17 year olds and a few older guys pllaying in Prem League without any attachment to a club. Schools wouldn't like it clubs would hopefully see it as a good thing.

Quite right regarding the next generation of volunteers - already starting to have an effect so some of us old crusties will be able to move on.

The clubrooms were paid off four years ago.

Its been tough to figure out where I stand on the HB United/Central Football issue lately.  

I have come to the following 

HBU need to work harder off the pitch (could be too late). After reading Stu James comment outlining some of the things NCR do to fund their players, I don't believe the drive is there to raise funds at HB United.  I also believe they are financially mismanaged and need to understand their Profit and Loss better.  

HBU for whatever reason are not engaged with the local clubs.  Its deeper than not selecting their players.  

The Gearys,  Wilsons, and Strangers would have all transitioned as volunteers over to HBU if the club had kept them engaged.  The fact is they didn't.  

Now NCR has smelt blood in the water and is moving in for the kill. It was going to happen sooner or later.  

In short its sad to see. maybe I sould just look away for 24 months and see where it has all settled in 2020

I have been following this post with some interest. It does seem, sadly, like it's a little too late for Hawke's Bay United. Too many disenfranchised people by the sound of it. Seems as if frustration with the current administration, apparent financial mismanagement, and Central Football's continuous financial dripping to the detriment of supporting the development of football in the region - which is their purpose, has reached the tipping point.

Perhaps NZ Football should be taking a closer look at this.

Maybe Napier City Rovers should retake control - would that be the answer?. They seem to have undergone a resurgence under new leadership. A new chairman took control two years ago. No-one seems to know a lot about him - Phil Doran, I have heard he's Irish, but don't quote me. He seems to keep a low profile, but since he has came along they have established an academy, won three major championships at the club and the NCR U19s are back on track. Anyone know much about this guy?

They seem to have a good administration set-up, with old and new heads - interesting times!

Phil is not Irish, he's Scottish! Speaking from my perspective as a volunteer, Phil has done an amazing job. I've only been with the Rovers for one season and will most certainly be back. Also, I made friends with some of the players this year and they all really enjoyed their time with the club.  From the way they described things, the club was very supportive and well organised. 

Re HBU: they were the club I started volunteering with back in 2015. I actually knew nothing of the Rovers. We moved to Napier from Canada in 2015 so I really have very little background history of the clubs here. I'm just a footy fan without any agenda besides wanting to help promote the sport I love in our new home country. I really wanted it to work with HBU but the ongoing frustration with a whole lot of little things just came to a breaking point with me. 

I still wish both clubs well and if a solution was found to my problems with HBU I would consider returning. For now, I'm sticking only with NCR and if I had to pick one over the other to move forward it would be NCR. 

Watching from afar: I'll try and answer your questions

What has NCR youth pathway looked like over the past 4 or 5 years? Didn't Marist have a decent young team last year and Havelock seem to be doing well on that front. Have NCR offered the better young players in the region the same opportunity? I have been critcical of the NCR local prem team before and it's make up of masters players rather then youth. For the past 25/30years the best player 99% of the time went to Ncr. So to say the players are not there...

When I arrived at the club 3 seasons ago the pathway was limited and if we're honest the Prems and Div 1 sides were in need of freshening up, we were fortunate at the time that past Rovers players such as the Gearey brothers, Heath Caldwell and Dean Johnson re-joined the club and we were able to use them as the base of the Prems rebuild, over the past 2 seasons we have seen these older players filter out of the Prems and down into Div 1 this has enabled us to promote more youth through to our Prems side, I am hopeful that next season Prems side will be the majority of our U19's, we also have to remember as a club we have a responsibility to provide football opportunities for all age and quality of players, the older guys help with fundraising and bar takings, a club full of youth players would financially struggle.

Stu are there every any conversations with HBU more Brett about which players he is thinking about bringing in or you are looking at bringing in? Obviously you would love for him to sign all your imports as likely easier to hold onto them. Do you go to HBU training sessions and watch to id players your wanting? I know it's hard as different opinions and styles of player but I can't help but feel that relationship needs to be stronger and work closer together. At the moment there doesn't seem to be any of that, which I can understand as they are not the same club.

Yes I have personally attended HB trainings and yes we have tried to sign HB players, last season we managed to capture Wes and Mac, we did try for a couple of others but they took up the option of moving to Wellington for the lifestyle, I thought we were onto a great thing when Bill went in as Brett's number 2, I thought this would enable both clubs to work closer together and help retain the best players locally, unfortunately Brett decided that he didn't want Bill in any capacity this season and he made it clear to Bill that he didn't want a strong Rovers influence through the squad, this is the primary reason that the relationship has broken down. 

I think it would be great for NCR to get the licence, the have the strong history and seem to have the next generation of admin volunteers coming through likes of Geary, Stanger, Willsons all of who grew up at Park Island and understand the history. Appear to be in good financial position and if they haven't already they be far off paying the clubrooms off. Like them or hate them I think that would be best.

Talent pathway in the Bay... the best players need to training and playing with the best players as frequently as possible. Flag school stuff (dreaming) have a HB age group side of 15 16 17 year olds and a few older guys pllaying in Prem League without any attachment to a club. Schools wouldn't like it clubs would hopefully see it as a good thing.

I'm mixed on your view here, agree school football is not developing players and if anything for the few kids that could make it at a higher level it is holding them back, some of these kids are training and playing far to much and no one is getting the best out of them.

HB age group in the Prem league? Sorry can't agree with you here, kids playing and training with kids doesn't develop them, I think we have to be fair and realise that we are not going to produce 10 to 16 players capable of playing Central league every season, I think if each club can develop 3 or 4 then we are onto a good thing, the only way these kids will get better is if they are training with experienced adults, we have seen the development of Karan, kaeden Atkins, Zac Madsen, Ethan Ladd and a few others this season because they have been training with the Central League squad, I can guarantee you they would not have developed as quick if they stayed in a youth set up

Do you know that in the past 3 seasons with Rovers Brett Angel has not attended one training session, the Regional Development Manager has not attended one Central League training session, hasn't showed any interest in our youth players and what if anything Central Football or HB UTD could do to help us develop and or create a pathway for players, I know this whole thing has been looked at as Rovers having a crack but for me its about building relationships for the betterment of our young local players, unfortunately Brett for some reason doesn't want to work with us? Again take this in, the Central Federation Regional Development Manager has not attended one Central League training session, love or hate Rovers, we are the highest performing winter league team in the Federations and have the best opertunity of providing National League players into the HB set up, why wouldn't you want a relationship with us, cheers Stu 

Harry Morton, Tom Biss, Andy Bevin, Angus Kilkolly and BJ Christiansen were all part of the first draft into the HB United Football Academy in 2005, along with 120 other footballers, both girls and boys, many of whom have enjoyed football at all levels. They have experienced success at International, Professional and Local Football.

This was a joint venture between Franchise and the Federation at the time and was endorsed by the National Body.

The breakdown occurred when Central Football decided to dismantle the Academy and then proceeded to take over the running of HBU.

Federations were not supposed to be involved with Franchise Football at all.

Brett and Previously Chris have both had success with the Franchise, but somewhere there seems to have been a breakdown in both local and regional relationships which, in the end do very little to help our young players.

The Financial issue is a debacle and given Darren Mason’s recent appointment and previous careers one would expect this to be resolved, he needs to be given time to achieve this.

We have some great coaches, volunteers and administrators in the region that need to come together as one and come up with a strategy to Benefit the young footballers of Hawke’s Bay that ensures they enjoy the game and have an honest pathway to whichever level they aspire to.

Sorry no link online yet, but today’s HB Today newspaper filled its back page with a report on financial hardship of HB United.  Looks like a plea for help before folding as funds are not available, sponsors hard to find, costs increasing etc etc.

No doubt this is a reflection of many other National League clubs too.

Locally it looks like the local clubs aren’t overly supportive and without them the franchise either folds or is taken over by someone else. Without knowing too much, Napier City Rovers would be the only local club set up to, but if HBU aren’t making money then it will be hard for NCR to either. Although Rovers have a club and junior infrastructure to draw from, that’s a whole new discussion isn’t it?

Here's the link

Interesting, some of the numbers in the article. 

"Costs of hiring training/playing venues, floodlight use and travel (up to $10,000) as well as the New Zealand Football entry fees of $30,000 a season."

On average, Bay United is earning $5000 to $10,000 a season from gate takings in charging adults $10, seniors and students $5 (13-and-under children free) a game.

"We're all amateur and there's a limit set by New Zealand Football on what's acceptable per player for a season," says McKenzie.

That NZ Football ceiling is $160,000 for a squad of 20 players a season.

"Ours is significantly less than that — under half of that," he says, before rounding that off to around the $50,000 mark.

seems to be little benefit to anyone keeping it in its current form

They mispelled shamateur. Hope this helps.

If the article is true and what's happening at HBU is happening everywhere else, to a lesser degree, then we really do need to look at the situation of big money flowing under the table to attract players to "amateur" clubs, while top players turn down the country's only professional side.

It is time to pull togethr

Have to agree. Rovers obviously beat places to step up but like Napier Phoenix said if HBU are not making money would Rovers? 

The whole league need to be pulled. Back to winter league. Something similar to the super club if early 90s. Top 3 northern 3 central and 2 southern.

Lately, there has been a lot of talk about the fact that very few fans come out to games. We have only lived in the Bay for three-and-a-half years, and the highest turnout we saw at a HBU game was around 700-800 at a televised game during the 2015-2016 season. Since then, have really never seen anything even remotely close to that.
Did they used to get more people to games? If yes, what has changed?

In the 80's Napier City Rovers used to get huge crowds between 2 and 5 thousand I believe and players used to get stopped in the street down town and asked for autographs

I played up there in the 90's and the crowds would vary between a few hundred and a thousand and a lot more for playoff games (local's, please correct me if I'm off the mark here)

In 1980’s-1990’s there were a heap of high profile AW heroes running around the National League. Now there are none, and a club based league won’t change that.

Also back then there was virtually nil football on TV, and the internet didn’t exist.

Many football fans would nowadays rather spend their valuable spare time, watching their favourite European club team play in a high quality league with all the excitement that brings - through a high definition screen, than attend a much lower quality National League game in NZ live. Not saying it’s right, but it’s basically irreversible.

Same reason why ITM Cup rugby crowds are now poor. The All Blacks no longer play in that competition, and after a high quality Super Rugby Comp (and even that is suffering from a drop in live crowds) with all the stars, the average fan is suffering from “product fatigue”

That makes sense, though it's too bad. The games (both NCR and HBU) would be so much more fun with packed stadiums!  Curious as to how the other clubs are doing with numbers. We heard that Tasman was getting around 1,000 but not sure if that's correct.

From the size of the televised crowd, I'd doubt it. I would say ACFC gets 150-200, vs team Welly was probably 4-500.

I can confirm Tasman gets 1000 a game and last year got 2500 to a couple. The problem with TV is that the camera is on teh main stand and projects to the other empty stand.

That's a decent number of fans, and the team isn't even doing all that well! Is the club doing things to promote the team? Or is it just a very footy oriented location?