What if the national league was it?

It's hard to knit and post at the same time.

If the Phoenix are 5.5 to beat West Ham can't NZF put $2 million on that result and then hey presto - we have decent dosh for the next five seasons for both the Nix and ASBP? I'm sure a little arrangement can be made with the Cockneys to get there, cough, cough. Last time I went to Upton Park to watch them play Crystal Palace an Asian betting syndicate cut the power when the score was 2-2 so they'll know how it goes.

would Ivan get out of bed for 12k?

The league is already funded by dodgy pokie money, guess it may as well be further funded by dodgy betting money. 

Number of questions asked: 0.

Number of questions answered: 0.5.

Percentage of mindless repetition: 95%

The 5% is that you firmly believe that $12.5k per player is enough to make a substantial difference to the quality of the league. I totally disagree. 

Dale has hit the nail on the head in an earlier posting. There is no market in New Zealand for a spectator-supported semi-professional league. There just isn't the quality of player, or the quantity of spectators.

The only way we can realistically expect to deliver for the small number of talented players we have is by providing focused initiatives that offer football at a higher level. For young players that's going to be small, targeted academy products. For youth it's going to be specific off-shore opportunities. For senior players the best realistic alternative available is the A-League. We desperately need it. 

This is the key. Currently the fans don't supply much of a very limited stream of revenue and it is very difficult to see how we could reach a point where they would (whether through tickets or tv). To me, the type of national league Bluemagic wants would require a massive shift in how NZF approaches the league, some of which I have seen him advocate, such as setting up a separate entity to run the league. However, it would likely require almost all of the funding to come from NZF revenue. I can see the justification for NZF to do that as part of the pathway to the All Whites, but it would require far more revenue to come from All Whites games BEFORE the league could be set up. Even then I think we would need the Phoenix and hypothetical future NZ-based franchises to provide provide professional football for kiwi players.

BM if you realistically want an honest discussion on this, and you acknowledge Smithy tried, then you at least have to address the points raised. You still have not gone back to the the $3m you raised earlier, was asked about and never answered.

If you want people to meet you half way, you have to at least put some skin in the game and answer the realistic questions posed back at you.

so less than what they get from pokies under the amateur system

BM You have different glasses to me, I cant see anything in your proposal

Lets remember the A in the A League means that it is an Australian competition and they make the rules. The objective of the A League is to promote Australian football and strengthen the base of Australian players. All players that are not Australian are outsiders, imports.  It is a fully professional set up, one that we are not ever likely to have here in your or my lifetime.

AND they have invited us in. I still find it amazing, even after all these years. We get to have a fully professional team right here in New Zealand. It used to be in my backyard, but now is in the heart of the country. We have regular quality football week in, week out, for a decent season, and a playoff system to still give you hope. We have a pathway for young New Zealanders to follow, to participate in and get noticed before heading off if their talent allows. 

And you are saying dump it, lose all that, and have a "semi" amateur league here that might get 2000 at a game now and then. Honestly, I dont get it.

Personally I dont care that the AFC dont allow the Nix to play in the ACL, it is neither here nor there to me. Winning the A league would be enough of a trophy. A reserve team, still meh. Let them play locally, change the rules here, we own the rulebook.

Football here isnt broken, and neither is it in the either / or situation that you suggest. There is room for both leagues in this country.

Tinker with the National League by all means, to try and get a more even standard, better attendances and better coverage.

I believe NZ football is better for having the Nix, it may be diminishing your interest but it is inspiring for so many others

You've hit the nail on the head here, perhaps without even understanding. This is the very reason NOT to be putting too much emphasis on the Phoennix and instead directing resources towards a NZ league. What are the consequences if we continue to let the ASBP die a slow, painful, lingering death as appears to be the case and then the FFA pull the pin on the Phoenix? So what if the process of building NZ football is extremely slow? Have a goal and build a plan to get there rather than sitting back and relying on the whim of the FFA.

Australia has not always had the A-League and didn't get it by sitting back and saying "Oh well, we'll never have this in my lifetime so let's jump on some other countries league."

no they got it by some guy saying "I'm rich, have all my money" then the population and market for it to be sustainable (which is still isn't, but it has the potential to be one day). We have none of those. 

Rugby can't even sustain a national league without pouring a crapload of money into it every year, its a black hole. 

With their limited resources NZF are better off using the ASBP as a stepping stone for players to go on to bigger things, the nix provide a pro team that are looking at these players almost week in week out as a further stepping stone.

It'd also be completely inefficient to get rid of that just for welnix to pay ASBP players an extra $6000 per week. That would do NOTHING for the game here. 

The nix also get 6000+ to football every fortnight, some of those may decide to play football on the back of that, some may go along and check out the national league. They've bought EPL teams to NZ and put football on the front and back pages. There are many intangible benefits the nix bring too. 

There is also the small point that welnix wouldn't want to pour money down a black hole. They don't even want to be pouring money into the nix long term and hope it will become at least close to self sustaining, so why would they want to lose money on the ASBP each year for little benefit? Paying ASBP players an extra $6000 each would not magically bring in revenues, so they would lose money each year. 

The problem is that the 'solutions' (if I can use that word) are not realistic because you are swimming against the tide in more than a few respects and to be honest, most of them are not surmountable. That's not head in the sand or giving up, that's call learning not to piss into the wind

You are essentially relying on sugar daddies to bankroll it (and that's not happening right now so why would they come out of the woodwork?) and players to play for $12k which in (I suspect) more than a few cases, is no different than what they get now or less. You are also expecting crowds to re-appear en masse to the games in a time where crowds are declining across all sports.

To follow some of your lines of thinking through, money is not necessarily the answer when you don't have the cattle to play with - evidenced by the fact that ACFC get in more than a few imports.... If every franchise did it in the name of improving the product or 'winning', how does that benefit football in NZ, the AWs and Kiwi players which is what you guys are trying to drive home to us? Please tell me how free market Europe and the flood of players into the EPL has helped the development of the English game, the players and the national team? Some teams in the EPL field about the same amount of locals as ACFC do but that's not exactly lifting the game for England its players and it national team. How does that help with the benefit you are trying to extol? I might add that just because I pay you $12k to do something you might have done for free, does not mean you automatically become better at it. If that were the case, then all India needs to do is to take all the money they put into cricket, put it into football and they automatically become world champions. Same in the USA.... If your boss decides to increase your salary by $100k, does that mean you are better at your job or is he being silly his money? You could throw all the money in the world at the players in the Dunedin but I doubt that would make them better players overnight to the degree you are advocating.


The cost to benefit ratio simply does not stack up.

Its interesting to look at the names of some of the teams who have previously competed in a National Club Competition back in another "hay day" of NZ Football 1982, when these clubs and NZ Football did their best to operate the league on a semi professional basis. Teams who played in the league that year were:-

Mount Wellington, North Shore, Dunedin City, Gisborne, Wellington Diamond United, Miramar, Christchurch United, Napier City Rovers, Manurewa, Hamilton, East Coast Bays and Invercargill Thistle.

Of those 12 teams Only Miramar NCR and ECB remain playing in the Top Tier of local competition.  The History of the National League is littered with sides who have tried to make it in the "Big time", failed miserably and have caused the collapse of many Clubs with long histories.

While the current "franchise system" is suppsedly different from the club based model, we all know that in the majority of franchises that is simply not the case and the burden largely falls with one club, which has probably made that club stronger in their area.

Would we like a thriving National League that has professional players playing in front of crowds of 2000 every week? The answer is yes, but the big question is, is that sustainable? Sadly at present no. Football in this country does not at present have the resources or the quality of players to see this happen. This does not mean we don't want it to happen or it wont happen sometime in the future, just at present reality says no.

"

The nix also get 6000+ to football every fortnight, some of those may decide to play football on the back of that, "

This'll explain TWs huge gates ....

"some may go along and check out the national league. "

Actually ...Name them !

 " AND they have invited us in. I still find it amazing, even after all these years."

Absolutely ...you're probably not familiar with the old Oz axiom .." never give a mug a break "

4.5 million consumers ,similar demographics at a bargain basement price ....Im amazed their still not laughing ....

I think these are two very valid points.

We should be looking for ways to shore up and improve the ASB Premiership - I have mused on some of my views about this in other threads - and we should be doing our best to support it. Many of the folks who do the heavy lifting with Yellow Fever are TW die hards. I have been previously, but not so much lately.

I also think it's important that we "take a step back" (cliche bingo, ding) and look at the ASB Premiership and say "is this the best form of the competition for our current situation" which is exactly what Frank Lowy did with the NSL. He looked at it and said "this thing is fucked, we can do better". If I was looking at the current ASBP I'd say exactly the same.

But the Phoenix and the top tier of Kiwi amateur football can and must coexist. Evolution not revolution.

Yep it is mutually beneficial indeed. 

I get your point but even the Phoenix's general manager David Dome is quoted in the Herald this morning as saying - "there is a realisation at the club that if we are going to get to the next level we have to do something different."

"Ultimately the club has to stand on its own two feet. The owners don't have endless pockets. They are not interested in funding this (club) forever."

This indicates to me there is a timeline on the Phoenix already and if somehow it can't break into the top four and lure 10,000+ plus crowds to Westpac stadium then its days are numbered. Can you truly see that happening in the next couple of seasons with the current expenditure/players? If so okay. Otherwise we need to think outside the current box.

Either way we need to find major new investment for the Nix and/or the ASBP or we need to pool what is currently being spent into one or the other. Neither is competitive in the way it should be in the current set-up.

Frankly I'm happy to go watch ACFC but it's depressing when on away games in the ASBP (CU and HBU excluded) it comprises standing in open fields with a handful of local supporters. I love going to Kiwitea Street because there's real atmosphere but most of the other ASBP grounds lack that. It's like going through the death rattle of the Kingz.

Yes I do believe bringing in quality imports as ACFC does and playing them alongside local players lifts the standards of the local players. ACFC is living proof of this. Having a reasonable income for the club also allows for more training time. ACFC trains almost like a professional club because they can compensate players for the extra time they invest, even though many hold day jobs. Struggling ASBP sides can't and are at the level of the winter clubs and that's why the competition is so unequal.

exactly. So why would welnix pour money into paying semi-pro players slightly more again? 

I think we all want what you want. A better national league. But what you propose isn't the way to do it. As JV said the cost/benefit doesn't even come close to adding up. 

So for the 6758th time, why would the owners throw their money at the ASBP where there is no chance of breaking even?

1: The people that did the review had no clue or

2: The competition put in place was not really fit for purpose or

3: The suggested competition was a rolls royce on a skoda budget or

4: The people that implemented the recommendations did not or ignored them

I think there is a mix of all 4 in there. Its been lamented a few times (and I believe this point needs no debate) is that NZF were responsible for letting the standards slip. We laugh at Fred Taylor paddock but that illustrates exactly how we have gone from the initial criteria to where we are today. There are still those that will debate the franchise model vs the club model and in more than a few places, the franchise model has slipped to a 'club in disguise' model so was what was implemented really fit for the purpose of what 'the game, players, spectators, administrators' wanted? Having no real sponsorship dollars has never helped and the pokie channel is just openly abused. Having Glyn Taylor in charge for so long really helped to kill the competition. The numpty of that man can never be replicated.

Frank Lowy did the right thing but would our national league survive/be revived by blowing it up and starting again in some other vein? Could you guarantee that the replacement product would be better or not go down the same route that people said the NZFC would never do? If you can not guarantee that, then it pointless doing that exercise as much as I agree that there is so much that can be done better. As much as the old NSL was poked, they have some similar problems that have raised their head with the RBB and the bullshit there. If they kept to one team one town, I seriously doubt they would have the issues like that and we would not be talking about ID for active fan zones etc like we are now.

I think the franchise model was good to begin with. The idea of the best players from every club in the region competing in a franchise is a good one. TW crowds were up while that was happening. 

But now it's obviously just a club competition in disguise. Which is a bit of a joke. 

TW crowds are down because people aren't that fussed about watching Miramar in disguise, amongst other factors, not because of the nix. Correlation does not equal causality. I'm not knocking Miramar here, good on them for keeping TW going. But the ASBP does need a look at, it is alright as it is but could be better. 

None of this has anything to do with the nix. 

 " But the ASBP does need a look at, it is alright as it is but could be better. "

" alright as it is "

That says everything really ....status quo ...  " oooooh , its only a little bit fu@#ed "

"But the ASBP does need a look at...(it) could be better"

How is that's advocating the status quo? 

Pretty much sums up how you pick pieces out of what people say to suit yourself then ignore all the rest. 

Not sure a club system would boost crowds. If Miramar and Olympic were in a national league, would crowds be any bigger? I suspect not. What if Wairarapa or West got promoted? can't imagine more than a few hundred turning out to those games.

Your problem Fu Blu/BM is that you want all this change and in an idealistic fairytale land, it implements itself perfectly. We all want the same thing and if you read properly, 99% of the posters are with you and BM on this. It's just the solutions that are proposed are not realistic and will not work. Thats not accepting status quo, its being smart enough to accept that there are some things you cannot change no matter how much you want to. I want football as the number one sport in the country on the cover of all mags and papers with prime time coverage but I'm not so fucking stupid to realise this will never happen cause if it was going to, it would have happened before now.

Do you really believe that the Phoenix have nothing to do with the fall in attendances at TW games?

Even someone as blinkered as yourself cant possibly fail to see that!!

And of course putting the shambles that will be Phoenix Reserves in the ASB Prem wont affect TW either will it

Ok. Explain to me how they have affected TW attendances?

Attendances across the ASBP have fallen since year one. Its not just a wellington trend. 

The very fact that you have asked that question renders any explanation and further discussion pointless!  You clearly refuse to see that just possibly for all the positives of having Phoenix in A-League there maybe be the odd negative. 

How does me asking a question make discussion pointless? I asked the question to generate discussion 

I take the fact that you can't answer it as rendering any further discussion pointless to be honest. 

The defence rests.....

Sorry Harry but Tegal has a point. Yes attendances have fallen but the Phoenix don't play at Kiwitea, Fred Taylor, Park Island, Dunedin do they.... 

Correlation does not imply causation as Tegal said before.

(although I don't doubt there is a little bit of bleed but explain the rest)

This thread is going to descend into another slanging match again. I can just feel it in about 4 pages time.

Sooooooooo much stoopid from certain members of this forum in here. They've constantly made a statement, others have raised valid concerns and asked questions about the proposal, and the response has been "No, the Phoenix are the problem, I'm not going to actually answer your question".

IBTL.

These guys would be hopeless at an AMA.

Q: "So do you drive a blue Ford?"

A: Its all the Phoenix fault because the money......."

You cant educate Pork guys