Lets look at Fergie's record in Europe at United
Lets look at Fergie's record in Europe at United
25 years. 2 European Cups. 1 Cup Winners Cup.
Now my friends, lets consider for one second just how much of a dominant force Ferguson has turned United into domestically. A whopping 12 Premier League titles as well as a handful of domestic cups. Despite this unprecedented success, Fergie and his United puppets have simply failed to turn up in Europe most seasons. But why is this the case? Why can't United replicate domestic form in the grand stadia across Europe?
In the two seasons where United were crowned champions of Europe, 1999 and 2008, United certainly weren't without their fair share of luck. A late comeback against Bayern Munich in a game where they were largely outplayed and a lottery win against Chelsea, courtesy of a John Terry arse over. Both years United had very good squads with talented players, but they were hardly dominant champions either time.
Is it simply a case of Fergie consistently being tactically outclassed by his European counterparts? Can the blame perhaps be shifted towards the players, with accusations of overconfidence or complacency being issued in the direction of those men in Manchester red? One area that cannot be critiqued is United's financial position. They are among the strongest in the world in that aspect, a true global brand. However, this does not always reflect on the field, particularly when you look at 25 years of under achievement in Europe's premier club competition.
When the sun finally sets on Fergie's glittering managerial career, there will be one area which is left well and truly in the dark.
Buffon II2011-05-29 20:19:58
Now my friends, lets consider for one second just how much of a dominant force Ferguson has turned United into domestically. A whopping 12 Premier League titles as well as a handful of domestic cups. Despite this unprecedented success, Fergie and his United puppets have simply failed to turn up in Europe most seasons. But why is this the case? Why can't United replicate domestic form in the grand stadia across Europe?
In the two seasons where United were crowned champions of Europe, 1999 and 2008, United certainly weren't without their fair share of luck. A late comeback against Bayern Munich in a game where they were largely outplayed and a lottery win against Chelsea, courtesy of a John Terry arse over. Both years United had very good squads with talented players, but they were hardly dominant champions either time.
Is it simply a case of Fergie consistently being tactically outclassed by his European counterparts? Can the blame perhaps be shifted towards the players, with accusations of overconfidence or complacency being issued in the direction of those men in Manchester red? One area that cannot be critiqued is United's financial position. They are among the strongest in the world in that aspect, a true global brand. However, this does not always reflect on the field, particularly when you look at 25 years of under achievement in Europe's premier club competition.
When the sun finally sets on Fergie's glittering managerial career, there will be one area which is left well and truly in the dark.
Buffon II2011-05-29 20:19:58
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Unbeaten in all of our Champions League games this season until the final. I wouldn't call that not turning up to Europe.
I don't think 2 European cups in 25 years is that bad. Its not super good and perhaps a little under par for Manchester United but by comparison, in the last 25 Years Barcelona has won it 4 times, Liverpool once (Arsenal 0) and no other English team.
I think a growing opinion of many people is that being the best in England and being the best in Europe requires completely different teams.
Another thing to consider is that the number would read 5 if it wasn't for the team everyone (not me, though) is calling the greatest of all time.
I think a growing opinion of many people is that being the best in England and being the best in Europe requires completely different teams.
Another thing to consider is that the number would read 5 if it wasn't for the team everyone (not me, though) is calling the greatest of all time.
United have made 4 finals during Fergies reign. I think thats a pretty good record.
Lets compare Utd's and AF record against Arse an AW.
Where are all these Euro trophies that Aesenal have won?
Arsenal are a great club, it is dickhead like you that give them a bad name.
Get back to McFetridge Park for that extra training.
Where are all these Euro trophies that Aesenal have won?
Arsenal are a great club, it is dickhead like you that give them a bad name.
Get back to McFetridge Park for that extra training.
I think some of you have been trolled (albeit by a fairly small member of the troll family)
I think some of you have been trolled (albeit by a fairly small member of the troll family)
Yes I believed so before posting. In fact numorous posts went through my head (Piss of you c**t, lets look at Arsene's record, posting a special picture involving an internet meme) but I decided by the slim chance this wasn't a 100% troll and in fact an actual discussion posting one of these responses would make me look like the c**t.
The fact is - as a Manchester United fan - we get these poor attacks on our greatness all the time. And we know you know deep down that we are the best club in England and possibly the world. And that Sir Alex is the greatest manager of all time. (As opposed to a small blip on a rather large radar, i.e. Mourinho)20 legend2011-05-29 22:06:37
I think some of you have been trolled (albeit by a fairly small member of the troll family)
Yes I believed so before posting. In fact numorous posts went through my head (Piss of you c**t, lets look at Arsene's record, posting a special picture involving an internet meme) but I decided by the slim chance this wasn't a 100% troll and in fact an actual discussion posting one of these responses would make me look like the c**t. The fact is - as a Manchester United fan - we get these poor attacks on our greatness all the time. And we know you know deep down that we are the best club in England and possibly the world. And that Sir Alex is the greatest manager of all time. (As opposed to a small blip on a rather large radar, i.e. Mourinho)
One thing mate, why don't they have a song for Ferguson at OT? and why does he constantly bottle it in Europe? 2 in 25 years? Thats not great given his undoubted dominance in England. Why does this happen? because he can't bully refs? Because he doesn't have half the league's managers licking his arse and being his friend? because he doesn't have the FA to toy with in the palm of his hand? because he's a whiskey-nosed, power hungry c**t? He got beaten again today exactly the same way, nothing was done differently to 09. Why?
Hahaha, and don't even get me started on the joke that is your support. one thing Fergie did get right- your fans are sh*te. Go back to the Ferguson-induced nursery for the cry babies that is Manchester United. people don't dislike you cos you're the best. They dislike you because of the manner you win.
You just got thumped in the final, and you still think you're the best club in the world? 
Green and Gold, you'll do as you're told. Paisley 3 in 9 years. jog on.
Another thing to consider is that the number would read 5 if it wasn't for the team everyone (not me, though) is calling the greatest of all time.
Naw, whats the matter, your pet hate Barca show you why people say they're the team of our generation?
I think some of you have been trolled (albeit by a fairly small member of the troll family)
I was quite impressed by Buffy's effort actually.
Unbeaten in all of our Champions League games this season until the final. I wouldn't call that not turning up to Europe.
Are you serious? Did you even read the post? 25 years, mate. Not one season, where you were well beaten finalists.
Buffon would like me to apologise for expressing the view that he was trolling, because he was merely expressing his view about Man u's record
I will withdraw the "troll" accusation - not that it really matters what i think as it is only my opinion in this instance, in much the same way that Buffy's opinion is equally worthy of disregarding
so please one and all disregard my previous view of Buffy's motivation and replace it with an expression of my view that he was merely showing a lack of tact and quite possibly inviting a comparison of the relative records of Man u and his club
anyways have a good night one and all
I will withdraw the "troll" accusation - not that it really matters what i think as it is only my opinion in this instance, in much the same way that Buffy's opinion is equally worthy of disregarding
so please one and all disregard my previous view of Buffy's motivation and replace it with an expression of my view that he was merely showing a lack of tact and quite possibly inviting a comparison of the relative records of Man u and his club
anyways have a good night one and all
Buffon would like me to apologise for expressing the view that he was trolling, because he was merely expressing his view about Man u's record
I will withdraw the "troll" accusation - not that it really matters what i think as it is only my opinion in this instance, in much the same way that Buffy's opinion is equally worthy of disregarding
so please one and all disregard my previous view of Buffy's motivation and replace it with an expression of my view that he was merely showing a lack of tact and quite possibly inviting a comparison of the relative records of Man u and his club
anyways have a good night one and all
I will withdraw the "troll" accusation - not that it really matters what i think as it is only my opinion in this instance, in much the same way that Buffy's opinion is equally worthy of disregarding
so please one and all disregard my previous view of Buffy's motivation and replace it with an expression of my view that he was merely showing a lack of tact and quite possibly inviting a comparison of the relative records of Man u and his club
anyways have a good night one and all
so basically if your club doesn't compare, then you cant giv sh1t to someone else's??
thankfully I re read your post, and yes I will disregard what you say.
and yes, Man Utd in Europe are chokers, plain and simple. and those who say they are satisfied with making the final are talking out their a$$
he's won 2 more European trophies Buffy. With Aberdeen... 2 European cups in 7 years.
I must say, I'd rather have what Fergie has in the cupboard than none in 15 years like Arsene Wenger.
I must say, I'd rather have what Fergie has in the cupboard than none in 15 years like Arsene Wenger.
We have still to get over our quarterfinal loss to SV Hamburg in the 1961 European Cup!
Having established credibility, I think the OP is not without merit (despite the obvious response potential).
United for all their domination of "the best league in Europe" have on balance underperformed on the European stage. They have tended to do very well in group stages (I can't remember any early exits), but then have fallen often when least expected at the late stages or not done the business in the final. As Buffy pointed out, as remarkable as their 99 win against Bayern was, it was at the end of 90 minutes in which they were largely second best. Until this year, there was also a string of German teams that knocked out Man U, who based on squad quality would not have expected to do so.
I wouldn't mind betting that deep down inside SAF himself is less than satisfied with what Man Utd have achieved in Europe.
Having established credibility, I think the OP is not without merit (despite the obvious response potential).
United for all their domination of "the best league in Europe" have on balance underperformed on the European stage. They have tended to do very well in group stages (I can't remember any early exits), but then have fallen often when least expected at the late stages or not done the business in the final. As Buffy pointed out, as remarkable as their 99 win against Bayern was, it was at the end of 90 minutes in which they were largely second best. Until this year, there was also a string of German teams that knocked out Man U, who based on squad quality would not have expected to do so.
I wouldn't mind betting that deep down inside SAF himself is less than satisfied with what Man Utd have achieved in Europe.
If bayern didn't get a case of the arsenal yips at the end there, and terry had managed to hold his footing, ManU would have 0 european cups under fergie... now that would be a real disaster
Actually, this is not a troll but a very interesting discussion point. Only blind United till I die type fans would bag this thread.
Let's look at this a bit more. No one disputes uniteds various squads over the last 25 years have contained some of the worlds premium players and also been extremely strong squads all around. 2 European Cups to show. Well, Nottingham Forest won it twice with IMHO a weaker squad and let's not forget Aston Villa. The Red Scousers didn't do too bad in the competition either.
So instead of trying to close this thread down, you might want to debate it. Which United squad has been the very best and how did they fare? You can go through a Cup campaign undefeated but at the end of the day, people - neutrals dont remember the runners up, they remember the winners.
Personally, I like this thread and when looked at in perspective, how come United haven't really dominated europe when the quality of their side suggest they should have?
Another thing to consider is that the number would read 5 if it wasn't for the team everyone (not me, though) is calling the greatest of all time.
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Naw, whats the matter, your pet hate Barca show you why people say they're the team of our generation?
And no, this Barcelona team is not the greatest team to ever take the field.
Liverpoololololol.
You shouldn't be worrying about the Champions League anyway.
Edit: Just btw. Real > Barca20 legend2011-05-30 17:06:50
I think Man Utd's record in Europe compared to their success in England has to take into account the strength of the league.
When Nottingham, Liverpool and Aston Villa won their European Cups, England were either top or 2nd in Uefa coefficient rankings.
Hence, Man Utd's relative strength in England in the 90's didn't extrapolate into Europe. I really think Aresene arriving at Arsenal raised the stakes and pushed United in England at the same time improving them in Europe. This happened again when Abramovich bought Chelsea. The competition at local level improved the clubs to the point where England now sits atop the UEFA coefficient. This has seen Man Utd compete in 3 CL finals in 4 seasons and an English team represented in a final, barring 2010, since 2005.
Just looking at their record, not taking into account league strength, in the CL era Man Utd are second only to Barcelona in points/game, have reached the QF stage more than any other team and 2nd to Barcelona in SF appearances. They also hold the record for longest undefeated run in European Cup/UCL history at 25 games, coming to and end in the 2009 final.
When Nottingham, Liverpool and Aston Villa won their European Cups, England were either top or 2nd in Uefa coefficient rankings.
Hence, Man Utd's relative strength in England in the 90's didn't extrapolate into Europe. I really think Aresene arriving at Arsenal raised the stakes and pushed United in England at the same time improving them in Europe. This happened again when Abramovich bought Chelsea. The competition at local level improved the clubs to the point where England now sits atop the UEFA coefficient. This has seen Man Utd compete in 3 CL finals in 4 seasons and an English team represented in a final, barring 2010, since 2005.
Just looking at their record, not taking into account league strength, in the CL era Man Utd are second only to Barcelona in points/game, have reached the QF stage more than any other team and 2nd to Barcelona in SF appearances. They also hold the record for longest undefeated run in European Cup/UCL history at 25 games, coming to and end in the 2009 final.
Lonegunman, I think your comments are pretty right.
The interesting point is that all the smart comments have come from supporters whose clubs have been losers this season, and of course from people that think they know a lot about football but in reality know very little.
The expression 'the best form of defence is attack' just about sums up what has been mentioned. AF has never been one of my favorites but you must give credit when it is due, and he has been very sucessful not only at Utd.
If you are berating AF for what he has or has not achieved in 25 years, perhaps a similar comparison with Arsene Wenger( as the bagging came from a gooner)would be interesting
Monaco 88/89 European Cup - reached the quarter-finals
Monaco 89/90 Cup Winners Cup -reached semi-finals
Monaco 90/91 Uefa Cup - reached the 3rd round
Monaco 91/92 Cup winners Cup -runners- up
Monaco 92/93 Cup winners Cup -reached second round
Monaco 93/94 European Cup -runners-up
Arsenal 97/98 Uefa Cup -reached 1st round
Arsenal 98/99 Champions League-1st round
Arsenal 99/00 Champions League/Ufea Cup-Uefa runners up
Arsenal 00/01 Champions League - reached quarter-finals
Arsenal 01/02 Champions League -reached 2nd round
Arsenal 02/03 Champions league -finished 3rd in group
Arsenal 03/04 Champions League - reached quarter finals
Arsenal 04/05 Champions League - reached 2nd round
Arsenal 05/06 Champions League - runners-up
Arsenal 06/07 Champions league - reached second round
Arsenal 07/08 Champions league - reached quarter finals
Arsenal 08/09 Champions League - reached semi finals
Arsenal 09/10 Champions League - reached quarter finals
Arsenal 10/11 Champions League - reached round of 16
Do these results make AW a failure? I don't think so.
What they do say is after 23 years of management in European football, he has won nothing. AF record is far better than that. The original comment is without any basis.It comes from someone who does not know how to lose and is only too quick to bag winners.
For me football was the winner on the weekend, and Basa have set the hard standard for everyone else.
I have a bad feeling that the only club that will be able to compete with Baca next year will be Man City.
The interesting point is that all the smart comments have come from supporters whose clubs have been losers this season, and of course from people that think they know a lot about football but in reality know very little.
The expression 'the best form of defence is attack' just about sums up what has been mentioned. AF has never been one of my favorites but you must give credit when it is due, and he has been very sucessful not only at Utd.
If you are berating AF for what he has or has not achieved in 25 years, perhaps a similar comparison with Arsene Wenger( as the bagging came from a gooner)would be interesting
Monaco 88/89 European Cup - reached the quarter-finals
Monaco 89/90 Cup Winners Cup -reached semi-finals
Monaco 90/91 Uefa Cup - reached the 3rd round
Monaco 91/92 Cup winners Cup -runners- up
Monaco 92/93 Cup winners Cup -reached second round
Monaco 93/94 European Cup -runners-up
Arsenal 97/98 Uefa Cup -reached 1st round
Arsenal 98/99 Champions League-1st round
Arsenal 99/00 Champions League/Ufea Cup-Uefa runners up
Arsenal 00/01 Champions League - reached quarter-finals
Arsenal 01/02 Champions League -reached 2nd round
Arsenal 02/03 Champions league -finished 3rd in group
Arsenal 03/04 Champions League - reached quarter finals
Arsenal 04/05 Champions League - reached 2nd round
Arsenal 05/06 Champions League - runners-up
Arsenal 06/07 Champions league - reached second round
Arsenal 07/08 Champions league - reached quarter finals
Arsenal 08/09 Champions League - reached semi finals
Arsenal 09/10 Champions League - reached quarter finals
Arsenal 10/11 Champions League - reached round of 16
Do these results make AW a failure? I don't think so.
What they do say is after 23 years of management in European football, he has won nothing. AF record is far better than that. The original comment is without any basis.It comes from someone who does not know how to lose and is only too quick to bag winners.
For me football was the winner on the weekend, and Basa have set the hard standard for everyone else.
I have a bad feeling that the only club that will be able to compete with Baca next year will be Man City.
lonegunmen
bullion (in particular)
leggy
good reading that was
bullion's assessment of ManU's success in europe sounds spot on to me, last english winner before manU '99 was liverpool '84, also noting that after heysel the lure of european football wasnt even there for a while... surely had a lasting impact
I have a bad feeling that the only club that will be able to compete with Baca next year will be Man City.
Real Madrid?
Don't think that any English club will be able to genuinely compete with Barcelona in the short term.
bullion's assessment of ManU's success in europe sounds spot on to me, last english winner before manU '99 was liverpool '84,�also noting that after heysel the lure of european football wasnt even there for a while... surely had a lasting impact
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This is a good point - it took English clubs quite a few years to become genuine contenders in Europe following their return from exile, and Man U led the charge there in the second half of the 1990s.
We'll beat Barca
anth1832011-05-30 20:43:16
I have a bad feeling that the only club that will be able to compete with Baca next year will be Man City.
Real Madrid?
Don't think that any English club will be able to genuinely compete with Barcelona in the short term.
Agree, man city can buy all the best players in the summer but they sure as hell won't be able to play football like barca can. The culture is something money can't buy. That takes time, training and trust. Living and breathing the barca way. Is that why ibrahimovic didn't fit in with the club? Didn't want to embrace the club's values and ways?
And you have to take into account that when Liverpool, Notts F and Aston Villa won it, it was a whole different set up - only 1 team from each country (the previous years champions) and at times they werent even the form team in that country the following year. Look at Spurs for example taking on Inter, Milan and Real Madrid.
I am not putting down those English teams, but the times have changed
Another thing to consider is that the number would read 5 if it wasn't for the team everyone (not me, though) is calling the greatest of all time.
Naw, whats the matter, your pet hate Barca show you why people say they're the team of our generation?
And no, this Barcelona team is not the greatest team to ever take the field.
Liverpoololololol.
You shouldn't be worrying about the Champions League anyway.
Edit: Just btw. Real > Barca
Okay then mate, you keep enjoying watching Carrick move like a lumberjack through the midfield and call them one of the greatest teams of all time whilst the likes of Xavi, Iniesta and Messi grace the field. Bunch of over-rated, diving bastards they are and they wouldn't be anywhere if they didn't get every dodgy decision from the ref.
Trollololololing Mancs for lolz.
Why not when I can watch you get your arse handed to you on a plate all the time? Thats entertainment enough for me until we get back there.
Sure thing, mate. Sure thing. The Madrid of old aren't unlike your team of today (except they actually won in Europe). So guess its fitting you believe that. If you're talking about history then you shouldn't be laughing at us given our European record over yours. And if you're talking about this season, then maybe you should watch them beat Madrid 5-0. But you couldn't stand that, could you?Fergie's right, yer fans are sh*te. And you'll do as you're told.
Another thing to consider is that the number would read 5 if it wasn't for the team everyone (not me, though) is calling the greatest of all time.
Naw, whats the matter, your pet hate Barca show you why people say they're the team of our generation?
And no, this Barcelona team is not the greatest team to ever take the field.
Liverpoololololol.
You shouldn't be worrying about the Champions League anyway.
Edit: Just btw. Real > Barca
Okay then mate, you keep enjoying watching Carrick move like a lumberjack through the midfield and call them one of the greatest teams of all time whilst the likes of Xavi, Iniesta and Messi grace the field. Bunch of over-rated, diving bastards they are and they wouldn't be anywhere if they didn't get every dodgy decision from the ref.
Trollololololing Mancs for lolz.
Why not when I can watch you get your arse handed to you on a plate all the time? Thats entertainment enough for me until we get back there.
Sure thing, mate. Sure thing. The Madrid of old aren't unlike your team of today (except they actually won in Europe). So guess its fitting you believe that. If you're talking about history then you shouldn't be laughing at us given our European record over yours. And if you're talking about this season, then maybe you should watch them beat Madrid 5-0. But you couldn't stand that, could you?Fergie's right, yer fans are sh*te. And you'll do as you're told.
While I can appreciate the views of failure in Europe, that comment is just hillariously untrue.
cripes EN you're sounding like a crazed lunatic
^Scouser till he dies. One sip of a Calsberg and the lads all fisty cuffs!
Another thing to consider is that the number would read 5 if it wasn't for the team everyone (not me, though) is calling the greatest of all time.
�
Naw, whats the matter, your pet hate Barca show you why people say they're the team of our generation?
�
Okay then mate, you keep enjoying watching Carrick move like a lumberjack through the midfield�and call them one of the greatest teams of all time whilst the likes of Xavi, Iniesta and Messi grace the field. Bunch of over-rated, diving bastards they are and they wouldn't be anywhere if they didn't get every dodgy decision from the ref.
�
Trollololololing Mancs for lolz.
�
Why not when I can watch you get your arse handed to you on a plate all the time? Thats entertainment enough for me until we get back there.
�
�Sure thing, mate. Sure thing. The Madrid of old aren't unlike your team of today (except they actually won in Europe). So guess its fitting you believe that. If you're talking about history then you shouldn't be laughing at us given our European record over yours. And if you're talking about this season, then maybe you should watch them beat Madrid 5-0. But you couldn't stand that, could you?�
Fergie's right, yer fans are sh*te. And you'll do as you're told.
Stand back mate, here goes.
I didn't say we had one of the best teams in the world. (even though we are at least the 2nd best in the world.) I actually said we are "one of the best clubs" in the world. Their is a large difference. Your argument is pointless.
And you're quite right. Iniesta started targeting Valencia the second Barca went one goal up, just for the record. Spain did the exact same thing in the WC Final, including hitting someone. (We don't need to go into depth about the Dutch - that's not the point)
The fact is Barcelona is going through a small blip of dominance that will end. The other fact is United has far outclassed everyone else this year and again completely exceeded expectation.
"Settle down Donkey, settle down."
Another thing to consider is that the number would read 5 if it wasn't for the team everyone (not me, though) is calling the greatest of all time.
�
Naw, whats the matter, your pet hate Barca show you why people say they're the team of our generation?
�
Okay then mate, you keep enjoying watching Carrick move like a lumberjack through the midfield�and call them one of the greatest teams of all time whilst the likes of Xavi, Iniesta and Messi grace the field. Bunch of over-rated, diving bastards they are and they wouldn't be anywhere if they didn't get every dodgy decision from the ref.
�
Trollololololing Mancs for lolz.
�
Why not when I can watch you get your arse handed to you on a plate all the time? Thats entertainment enough for me until we get back there.
�
�Sure thing, mate. Sure thing. The Madrid of old aren't unlike your team of today (except they actually won in Europe). So guess its fitting you believe that. If you're talking about history then you shouldn't be laughing at us given our European record over yours. And if you're talking about this season, then maybe you should watch them beat Madrid 5-0. But you couldn't stand that, could you?�
Fergie's right, yer fans are sh*te. And you'll do as you're told.
"All the time" in reference to 23 years of under-achievement, not one season.
One of the best based on what? Certainly wouldn't have been the pathetic homecoming 'parade', would it? "At least" second best? Admit you are at most second best.
So you don't think some of Valencia's tackles were fouls? You don't think the lack of ambition or desire to play any sort of football by United deserved to go unpunished, even when Valencia was clearly getting frustrated?
I really do think its a joke that Ferguson doesn't even have a song at OT.
But anyways what took him 15 years, Rafa did in one!
Got one lads 
But for the record, don't see a lot wrong with what I said.
And aitkenmiike, despite the obvious intentions to wind up the United fans, what do you disagree with in that statement?
EN I can't believe you've claimed that ManU lacked ambition and desire to play football in that game... i believe this is a common misconception levelled at teams playing against Barca (aside from Jose's teams perhaps...). The same thing was levelled at arsenal after our second leg loss... these arguments are based on statistics, not the actual viewing of the match.
Just because ManU had few shots, little possession and commited more fouls doesn't mean they 'didnt try to play football'. All it reflects is that Barca had the ball most of the time, and that when ManU got it, they lost it quickly no matter what they tried. End of.
I saw no malicious play in that game from ManU players - I saw some late tackles, most of them genuine ball-winning attempts that barca were just too quick for. And you expect frustration when a good team cannot get the ball, that's how it is - there's a big difference between frustration and teams deliberately fouling and trying to win without playing at all (See Stoke or Brum).
To be honest your whole tone and attitude in your posts in this thread is shocking, and it all sounds like very very very sour grapes. ManU won the league, they made the champs lge final, they are the best team in england right now, end of story. Your lot won nothing (just like my lot),and weren't even good enough to compete for the champions league this year. I like liverpool more than ManU, don't get me wrong, and I normally like you, but you need to settle down and stop rarking everyone up with this crap...
