(The not-so-temporary quite-official) Gooner Thread (Part 2)

Yep, let's keep doing what we're doing.

(sorry for the sarcasm - I'm just so gutted).

I don't want Wenger in a director of football role, when he's done then everything needs to be cut. Possession football hardly wins trophies, Barca the exception to the rule.

Bayern average possession - 63%

PSG average possession - 60%

Juventus - 54%

Arsenal - 54%

Barca - 59%

From squawka.

Leicester's counter-attacking football is the exception. To be a team who consistently dominates, you usually need to dominate possession - but that is just one part of it.  You also need to finish your damn chances.

Anyway, completely agree that if Wenger leaves he needs to actually leave, and not be hovering over in a DoF role. He's already said that once he goes, he won't be sticking around in another role.

People don't realise how hard Wenger works, though - at all levels. No other manager will do that. He will be a hard man to replace, despite the Groundhog Day of the last few years. I do think we're ready for a change. Wenger got us through the economically fiscal years with aplomb - but now he has money to spend, he's struggling to know what to do with it.

Fair statistics, I meant that there's too much emphasis on it being the best way to play. Recent winners such as Chelsea, Man Utd, Leicester (not yet), Athletico, Dortmund, Real, Juventus, Germany, Italy, Arsenal (when we were good) have alternative styles that to me are more successful.

No argument with his work ethic, loyalty and passion for the club. Also, he's not the entire problem, the owner/board are a disgrace as well.

It wasn't a personal attack Paul. I was just so frustrated after the loss to Watford in the FA Cup which I genuinely believed was a good chance of winning something. As it turns out, we would have got Palace in the semi's.

There is a mathematical chance of winning the league but I'm looking at it from a practical point of view. We're 11 points behind now but with a game in hand but it is points on the board. With 9 games to go, we need Leicester to drop 9 points while we match or better their results. This also from a team who has only lost 3 games all season and seem to be doing enough to win at the moment like previous title winning teams do at this stage of the season.

Put it another way, we would have to win nine on the trot and hope that Leicester lose 3 or draw 5 etc. On our current form, I just can't see us suddenly going on a run like that. Don't get me wrong, I'm as passionate about the team as you are and would love to be proved wrong. I'm just so disappointed that our season is turning to custard when as everyone has mentioned, this was the year to win it given what our traditional rivals (United, Chelsea, City etc) have done.

I really hope Leicester win it now as I could not stand watching images of Spurs parading the EPL trophy around North London.

As for Wenger, I do think we need change. He's been brilliant for us but something is lacking. Saying that, who do we bring in? I certainly don't want us ending up with a managerial merry go round like some other clubs 

It's just annoying because I would rather win with Wenger than win with anyone else. It would feel amazing for him to be a little smug in face of his detractors - and this really was the season to do it. He's missed out.

If Mourinho came in and won the league two seasons in a row, I wouldn't feel like it was something to celebrate. It would feel wrong. I guess that's what happens when a manager is so intrinsically linked to a club.

Wow, just had an aha moment reading that... you've just hit the nail on the head, and it beautifully explains why I feel so depressed right now.

I don't want to win with anyone else, I needed this, Wenger needed this, it just felt right, and yet we've royally farked it up. 

I would love winning a title with someone else, no doubt, but it would never be the same as winning it with Wenger after these years of toil. No one else could have pulled us through the austerity of building the new stadium and building up this club like he has, he deserves to come out of it with some glory. It will tarnish his legacy if he doesn't, and the prospect of that happening feels personally devastating to me. 

It depends who replaces Wenger. I feel like Klopp, despite his different philosophy, would've been great. Guardiola would probably fit the philosophy better but is a bit of a dick. Now all those options are gone.

The only one I can see is Simeone but I very much doubt he would leave Atletico for a shambles.

Who else is avaliable that you could see long-term at Arsenal and someone who has a big enough personality to stamp his authority on the club?

Doesn't have to be a massive name tbf. Someone young, hungry for success, with plenty of ambition and drive, and who has made a decent start to their managerial career would be fine.

Someone who is young and relatively inexperienced would be on a hiding to nothing.

Benetiz? Assuming Newcastle don't make the cut.

I like the thoughts of Simeone, while Guardiola has only worked with superstars at Barca, Bayern, and now City.

Klopp would have been perfect, Liverpool did well there.

The Henrgy/Bergkamp/Bould could be an interesting experiment of former players.

Or perhaps Tony Adams, just so he can shut his trap when he spends big and doesn't win a title.

My dream is Henry. But who knows if he'd be a good Manager or not. 

I just remember reading his biography and thinking man, he should be our Manager one day... he has the same passion as Wenger - doesn't go out, watches football day in day out, it's all he cares about. I love when he scored that goal against Spurs and as he ran down the touchline he appears to just be screaming "FOOTBALL" over and over. It certainly looks that way, and it cracks me up every time. 

There is the story that apparently as soon as he got his apartment in London when he signed, he called a guy in to install a whole wall of TVs, so he could watch multiple games from multiple leagues, all night long. Wenger famously said something like "I don't worry about thierry and what he's out doing, I know he will be at home, watching football". 

Pat Rice made a similar quote about Wenger once - he said that he was picking Wenger up, and Wenger told him to come up and wait while he got ready, and his apartment was a cesspit, it appeared that Wenger had just been watching football without leaving, food lying around, and the same as Henry - a whole wall of screens so he could watch multiple games in multiple leagues...

De Boer, Bergkamp and Henry altogether would be pretty cool, not sure if that's really feasible though - too many cooks in the kitchen?

Also was discussed a while back but is a long-term manager actually even possible anymore? Do the board put much thought into this when the time comes or do they just hire someone fairly tried and tested and hope for the best, and if it doesn't work, sack him and try again?

https://www.yellowfever.co.nz/categories/english-and-other-british-lower-league-football-discussion/topics/the-not-so-temporary-quite-official-gooner-thread?page=484#post_1111733

Not sure why winning it with Wenger is such a dream ending, it's like you're more a fan of Wenger than the club. The club existed before he turned up and their are managers in our history that have done just as much.

Wenger was anything but a household name when he first turned up as well, ideally we have a top class manager but I'd also take the young and ambitious type. 

Yes we would likely take one step back to go two forward when working with a new manager, but I'd happily take any of the following:

Ancelotti, Pellegrini, Simeone, Conte, Low, Blanc, Tuschel, Pochettino, De Boer, Allegri, Emery

Anthony Hudson??

Jorge Sampaoli

By a country mile

Assuming we are still a football club as opposed to a business venture. 

So you don't have any affection towards Wenger at all, then? Strange.

Criticism is justified but stupid Chelsea-esque heckling really grinds my gears. It's like if Dura or Siggy had a horrid last season and then everyone booed them off for their last game.

Henry would definitely be the dream; but like with Giggs at United, I don't think he's anywhere near ready. He is, however, someone who would command respect immediately.

Absolutely. Hard to imagine for many because a lot of us, myself included, have never known Arsenal without him. But the club had a long and prestigious history before him and it will still exist after him. It has to be a clean break too. Pointless to just move him upstairs to still control everything. The new man should also be given time to build his team and create his own setup. Every aspect of the club is going to need re-vitalising from years of mismanagement and it's going to take a big job so don't expect instant success. As I've said before, I'd happily accept a transitional season or 2 where we don't seriously compete for the title while the new man takes time to transform things.

However, none of this is going to happen as long as we remain in the CL places and Kroenke can keep taking his 3 million a year and buy ranches. Surely the board have taken notice of the rotten atmosphere lately, perhaps the fans forcing Wenger out is the only way.

I expect nothing will change this summer though. We'll finish the usual 4th and come September we'll again be told "there was noone available who could improve what I already have." And come October we'll again be told things like "we have Flamini, Chambers, Gabriel can play there. Arteta, Rosicky and Wilshere can all play there. We couldn't have planned for them all to be injured." Rinse and repeat for another season.

Wenger has won the most silverware and only Herbert Chapman has done as much for the development of our club.

Chapman died whilst first team manager so there is no precedent to how we should feel when Wenger leaves.

I was 15 when he became Manager, so to me he is the club really.

Our owner thinks we are a business venture.

That's something you're just going to have to get past. No one person is the club. The club will not cease without him. You say there is no precedent but you have seen people like Tony Adams, David Seaman, Lee Dixon, Dennis Bergkamp, Pat Rice leave and they would all have been just as much the club to you assuming you started supporting the club at the beginning of Wenger. We the fans are the club.

Strange that I don't have any affection towards Wenger? I have respect for what he has done, but he has started disrespecting the fans and unfortunately affection will not get us anywhere right now. 

Both Chapman and Graham achieved just as much in the same period of time. The club will always be bigger than one person, the values and traditions should be the basis for everything, something the club has shamefully gone away from.

Cheer up guys

Stan Kroenke  is up for the Sports Executive of the Year Award

None of them are the most successful manager in our history though, so that's not a precedent at all. His contribution is far greater than all of the people you've mentioned.

I am not saying Wenger must stay because of his history, all I am saying is that regardless of what happens from here, people should respect Wenger for what he has done, that's all. Isn't that a value of the club that us fans should be following as well? Aren't we supposed to be classy, and have integrity? Not seeing it much lately. 

Some people have been more frustrated than others over the last few years and they are letting that cloud their judgement of Wenger's contribution to our club. 

This has been some fascinating reading, looks like we're divided into two groups of 'Wenger should leave on top' vs 'Wenger needs to leave ASAP'. Personally I'm in the former camp, and really can't stand how demanding fans are becoming over this. There is an absence of respect/a sense of entitlement being shown that is just awful, and the kind of thing I'd expect from a City or Chelsea environment.

Demanding and sense of entitlement? That's just missing the point completely. How many years of failure are we expected to accept? It's been 12 years since we last won it. In what other job would you remain employed for years of under-performance? We have 100 million in the bank that has not been spent on strengthening the team and we're 11 points behind Leicester, not the big teams with the big money anymore. There are no excuses left. I fully respect what he has done for our club in the past and of course I would prefer he goes out on a high with another title not in shame with his name tarnished, but I do not respect what he is doing now.

The performances over the last few weeks have been disgusting, abject and shameful. We had a hand on two very winnable trophies and it's as if we've just stopped trying. And instead it looks like Spurs might win the league. Even my Spurs supporting parents were too young to remember the last time they won it. Noone demanded league titles from the start of the season, but from the point where we beat Leicester almost everyone had us a favourites and it was reasonable to expect we wouldn't capitulate this time. This time we may have let it slip to Spurs.

You're bashing him for not spending all our money, but at the same time saying that Leicester are showing him up? They didn't spend any money though... ManC and ManU spent a lot but are doing worse than us...

For me this squad is strong enough to be winning the league, the spending has been done, the squad has been built. The only failure here is Wenger not delivering on that after having done all the hard yards to get here. 

Painting it as some kind of 12 year walk of shame is crazy. There's just no way our squad was good enough to win this league until this season, perhaps last season at a stretch. I think back in 2013 or so, when we signed Ozil, I said Wenger should be judged on what happens from here onwards, because now we have the resources, and now we should reasonably expect to be challenging every season. We haven't done that, that is on Wenger, but I don't think it's fair at all to say he has been screwing up from 2004 until now. 

I don't disagree with a lot that you and POL are saying AJC, I just disagree with the revisionist history, painting Wenger as a long term failure, and de-valuing what he's done for the club, that is all.

Which is exactly why he needs to go. There are no excuses left this season. He's always had the money one to fall back on but no longer. Going to leave it there, pointless arguing any further.

I'm not disagreeing with you on that though, it's just the insinuation that he's been failing in this manner for 12 years that I strongly refute.

Edit: Sorry AJC I don't mean to have a parting shot after you said you were going to leave it there, but just wanted to be clear on what I'm getting at. Will leave it here as well, and as always, I do respect your opinions I promise! And POL too... if somewhat begrudgingly sometimes!

I guess we all love the club but just have differing views on certain things. As POL once said (I think?), at least we all show great passion for the cause!

Completely agree with this. I understand everyone is pissed off - I don't think you'll find an Arsenal fan that isn't - but the way certain sections are dealing with it is embarrassing.

On the bright side, we are third on the table and above Man City, Man United, Liverpool and Chelsea. In most years that would make us top. It could be worse, we could have Van Gaal :)

Or Adam Johnson.

Um... no.

In 9 years:

- Chapman won the league twice, FA Cup once, Charity Shield three times along with being a renowned innovator who would have achieved plenty more if not for his passing.

- Graham won the league twice, FA Cup once, League Cup twice, Charity Shield once, UEFA cup once and setup the famous back 4 that Wenger inherited

- Wenger won the league three times, FA cup three times and charity shield 3 times.

Your thinking of Wenger being above the club is astonishing mate. Respect him yes, but you do realise we were the 3rd most successful English club before he turned up? He's done great things for us, I appreciate that, but his quotes again this morning make him seem so far (and his staunch supporters) detached from reality. 

So, Barca tomorrow then...

Phew, couple of pages of good reading to catch up. I've been in non-Arsenal hibernation, can't beleive we're out of the FA cup - but not here to rehash what's been said in the last few pages of the thread. Whatever happens vs Barca, need to be ready to fight on in the premier league. As always, reliant on others failing. Hope some of the bigger names in the squad aren't too (to the point of leaving) gutted come the end of the season. 

Really wouldn't be concerned if we sold Walcott and Oxlade, if we bought replacements in who were superior - which I believe is totally possible. Other than Flamini, Rosicky and Arteta, wouldn't want to see anyone else go - but we need to see those three replaced with improvements.  

So to summarise, Chapman and Graham did not achieve the same as Wenger in the same timeframe.

Glad that's clear. 

I'm feeling this way too.

Walcott has really got to me lately. He should be far more influential than he is. A lot of clubs will pay good money for him, we need to turf out and buy a world class player instead - which is what he should have been...

So, 2-0 win tomorrow and go out on penalties? Actually the extra time would be a pain in the ass.