(The not-so-temporary quite-official) Gooner Thread (Part 3)

Completely agree Paulm, watching it last night it drove me nuts. We’re also watching the documentary on City at the moment and they don’t touch on it - which shows how biased it is.

Arteta looks odds on - hopefully it’s done quickly so we can get him in ASAP before the congested festive season.

Also we need to see some money spent in January - go get a CB and a CM in their prime at 26/27 and build the team around them.

I’m getting more on board with the fact we’ll have to sell one of Auba or Lacazette to make it possible.

I feel really excited about Arteta.

Could he be the Wenger to Emery's Rioch? Here's hoping.

....so what does Arteta bring to the table? A couple of seasons assisting under Pep and a former Gunner? I like the guy, but not sure why he is in the picture for the role. 

3.5 seasons and very highly rated by his peers apparently, as well as the players under him at Man City.

Guardiola, Wenger and Pochettino have all mentioned at some point that they believe he will make a high quality Manager.

I guess people would've asked the same questions of Guardiola at Barca and Zidane at Madrid, and that seems to have worked ok.

A gamble for sure, but why not. I'm keen.

Really don't think Arteta is who we need right now; but I'm happy to be proven wrong. Just think that the players with bigger egos will walk all over him after a couple of losses.

We should've sold one of Laca/Auba last year; think it's too late for that now.

Could be too late... but if we do sell one, who would it be?

Obviously Aubameyang is giving us more output right now, but he's older, and pace is a big part of his game. Will he still be effective when that goes?

If I was being ruthlessly business-like, I'd say sell Auba, keep Laca. He is younger and still has upside, particularly with a fresh management team who will hopefully reinvigorate him. His output is good anyway, if not at Auba's level.

In terms of selling one of them last off-season, that was never feasible at all unfortunately, even if it looks that way with hindsight now. Martinelli was completely unknown, we could never have gone into the season with just one known striker. We all would've screamed bloody murder. What if we had sold Auba, remembering that Laca got injured straight away at the start of the season? We would've either been starting Martinelli, or playing someone out of position. We also had the added complication of being short on wide forwards, with us signing Pepe near the end of the window. Just never could've happened.

I am really glad about what Ozil has done. Showed some real balls compared to guys like LeBron etc in the US.

He's put himself on the line with it, and stayed true to his principles. Apparently his Chinese fan club, with 30k members, was erased from the internet there immediately, among other things.

In terms of the club supporting him, that would be nice, but lets be realistic. It is a business, they all bow down to the Chinese dollar, I don't expect anything from the club. I can't think of any other comparatively sized sporting organisation that would come out and back someone in a situation like this either. It's sad, and wrong, but that's the state of affairs when it comes to money. I am actually impressed that they haven't come out with something going the other way, since they're losing out of this (Arsenal/Man City was immediately pulled from Chinese state TV after Ozil's tweet). The NBA, and many individuals within it, have disgraced themselves completely after the Houston Rockets Manager comments. I half expected Arsenal to follow suit with something equally disgraceful.

The entire world is bowing down to China on most things, as they do with other countries that hold the money (US, Saudia Arabia, and others). It's disgusting really. Most notably the Chinese human rights abuses, but also their contribution to human-caused climate change. Until something is done at a government level, I can't see this "turning a blind eye" behaviour changing. I'm no fan of Trump but I thought he might be one who actually attempts to break this kind of thing, since he was an outsider, and he spoke about doing exactly that. He does make a lot of noise about China in that respect, but he too bows down to the dollar when it comes to the crunch, as evidenced by his actions (or lack of) when it comes to Saudi Arabia and Israel.

While he was right in what he said we now can't flog him there and remain stuck with him. Be interesting to hear him answer similar questions about Erdogan and the Kurds. "Oh that's different."

As for Arteta, I suspect the board hope the new manager will be easier to control and modest in the transfer market.

A Mourinho type would have arrived with a 200 million pound shopping list and make frequent outbursts on TV about how the club needs to support him with transfers etc. There may be an assumption that Arteta is easier and cheaper to manage. Mourinho for instance wouldn’t have stood for the only January addition being yet another injured loan signing whereas they may feel Arteta can be told “this is what you’re getting.”

At the very least, he knows what it takes to play in midfield in the EPL. If he came as a player manager he’d instantly improve our central midfield even at his current fitness level. To be fair, he'd improve central defence tenfold too.

See what you're saying but it doesn't quite marry up with Mourinho going to Spurs, who apparently have very little to spend due to their new stadium?

I'm also reading that Man City are demanding compensation, and that Arteta would command a 5m annual salary. Not huge, but certainly not cheap, that's for sure. We seem to think that his inexperience means he's an easy and cheap option, but I don't think it's that simple, he is very highly rated by people in the know. Talk is that City see him as the one to take over from Guardiola when he goes, for example.

I'm being cynical really. More likely that no big name manager with big reputation wants to risk the hit to their reputation of coming to what is an unsalvageable season and squad backed by owners who don't care and fail to turn things around and finish, say, 12th. With Arteta people would be more sympathetic of the impossible situation he was faced with on a hiding to nothing in his first job as manager and feel he deserves the chance to start to build his own team.

Spot on. There are few managers out there who our players will probably listen to and genuinely respect. Remember this is a group of players who openly took the piss out of Emery on a regular basis.

I've been bitching about this since Pep's Barcelona days. The Barca and by extension Spanish team of the 2000s/2010s survived on this. It's the only way you can get so many players forward.

Statistically, last season Manchester City fouled the most of any other team in the league by some margin when you consider time spent without the ball.

Referees fall for it hook line and sinker and it drives me mental. Breaking a counter attack should be an instant yellow. I much rather see cards for doing that, than for mistimed challenges that are genuine attempts to win the ball.

Here's a Tifo football video on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq2guhCgOaI&vl=en

Take out the tactical fouls and Pep's system doesn't exist.

@brumbys - the City documentary is just propaganda. Could've been a really informative and interesting documentary otherwise, while still giving City some valuable PR. My biggest gripe is them moaning about how hard done by they were in one of the Champions League match-ups (I think vs Liverpool??), completely ignoring that Liverpool were owed at least one penalty in the same game. (I may have remembered that slightly off).

Fair shouts there mate, I felt the one they did on Sunderland was much more informative and realistic.

On the Arteta front I'm nervous - but I'm unsure who we can get who would excite me - Poch excluded but I think his wages might put him out of our league.

I've felt like we were going through Liverpool circa 4-5 years ago when they were pre Klopp. Sadly though as they got back into the ECL and we dipped out the ECL TV Deal came through again and it was worth significantly more - thus the opportunity cost for us being in the EL is actually greater than it was for Liverpool.

I think we'll end up selling Aubamayang - given his quality and his short contract I think our hand will be forced. Martinelli gives me hope, as does Lacazette, Pepe, and Saka. Hopefully those funds could bring in a Partey type CM and a Kimpembe/Koulibaly CB

I tell you what though. As much as I hate cities fouling if that’s the first thing Arteta teaches the boys it’ll probably go a long way to actually sorting us out. Our press is such a cluster fudge it’s so easy to walk between.

Very true. 

I'm not sold on Arteta, not by any stretch.

And that's fine, but when you think about the size of the job on hand - it's massive; and it's not the type of rebuild that any top tier manager (Allegri, Ancelotti) needs to bother with, and nor would they be excited by it... they (rightly) want roles at clubs that can win trophies in the short/med term. And that probably isn't us, we're a med/long term proposition. In addition, why would they come to us with a relatively minimal budget, at a time when the club is a relative shambles off the pitch as well as on it.

We need a complete rebuild... and it's going to take a minimum of 2 seasons (4 windows). So with that we need someone who's willing to commit... and also who can garner the backing of the board/KSE and their understanding that this isn't a quick fix - and we may not yet have hit rock bottom.

There are other candidates who would give me more confidence than Arteta who have done similar at other clubs (Hi Ado, Hi Julian, Hi Poch) of varying size, and could well do it for us too... but... if you've got a good/growing/established reputation at a mid-tier continental club, the choice you make in when and where you make the step to a *big club is absolutely critical - and that's when we begin to get to shaky ground. Our squad is a mess; our fanbase is a shouty mess, our club structure is a mess, our playing style is a mess, our identity is a mess, and our owners appear to lack engagement in said mess... and sure, there is an opportunity for someone to come in and fix it - but there's also a huge amount of challenges there - particularly for a young up and coming manager.

Arteta and his history could mitigate some of those challenges to varying degrees (of course, not all - nobody does). And I'd love nothing more than for him to come in and build a team of tireless, gritty, passy, fouly, quality, defendy, hard working winners... but it'll take time; just as it would for anyone else.

He's not my first choice; but if he's given the keys - then I'll support him... just as I will whoever else comes in. It's going to be a rough ride regardless, but hopefully he/they can halt the slide and slowly build us back up again.

Up the Arse!

*are we still a big club?

We're dealing with the vacuum that was inevitably going to be left when Wenger was gone. Once we get through that, and the club structure matures to some degree, then we can start climbing again.

Happy to swim against the tide here: I don't think it's as much of a mess as we all seem to think. I think that where we are now, is probably where we should have expected to be.

I think the main issue is our fans. We need to have patience now. We saw Liverpool go into this sort of slump and eventually sort it out, and we see ManU still struggling since Ferguson left. We are in this place now, and the main vitriol from the fans is just us getting to grips with it, and lowering our expectations until we get back on the horse. Lets not forget that some Liverpool fans were making noises about Klopp 1-2 seasons in, imagine if they had got rid at that point. We can't get toxic if Arteta takes that sort of time to start to make real progress, but I fear we will.

For me the playing squad has obvious holes but is not that bad, the ingredients are there. Although I am worried about the attitude/mentality side of things.

The club structure is new and there have been (major) teething issues with key figures departing soon after it was put in place, but I don't have major worries there, I expect that to settle down.

And when it comes to identity I think a managerial appointment like Arteta is one that will help us in a big way. This is an area we have suffered in under Emery. An identity is not a Manager. An identity is a club and their values, the Manager has to come in and adhere to those. Arteta is someone who is good for that, he understands it. Solsjkaer got his fans onside initially because he understood ManU's identity, and he is trying his darndest to ensure that it is permeating through the club at every level. Hopefully Arteta is a better tactical Manager than Solsjkaer, but I do hope he brings similar messages around our club identity.

I've been talking myself into liking the Arteta appointment. 

Let's face facts - no big up and coming manager will want to come to us right now. We're either going to get has beens (Ancelotti) or coaches with strong ties to the club (Vieira). If Arteta went somewhere else first and did well, we would never have a chance of getting him again. Sure, it's a risk, but every appointment is; we went with the safe option in Emery and look where that got us. If we snuck into the CL last year, maybe things would be different. We may as well swing for the fences now.

Saying the problem is the fans and not the board, or the ownership, or the playing group seems to miss the point entirely. Has there ever been a supporter base who still support in the same way when consistently playing below their best? Lowering expectations isn't a good thing. It's how you end up like Leeds or Newcastle. Yes, toxicity is an annoying but unavoidable part of fandom. 

The playing squad has huge holes that are becoming more and more apparent - we don't have one top-tier midfielder. Not one. We also don't have one top tier CB. (pray Saliba is VVD Mark II) Without that, you can't compete. We have a giant gaping hole in the middle of the park; go back to the game v City and skip to the 52nd minute to see what I mean. (something also mentioned on Arsenal Vision/arsecast) There was literally no one in the middle of the park defending 4 City players. We have several players in important positions who don't even follow the very basics of football. This is more than bad coaching.

One thing I'll enjoy is the fact Arteta is a really likeable, personable, intelligent guy - I'm sure Emery was too, but because of the bigger language barrier it was hard to really connect with him as a coach from a fans perspective. After years of Wenger - possibly the most eloquent man in football - that was hard to take.

Some great points there imo valeo, and I see what you mean re: fans, that does make sense to me

I've been reflecting on our team from last season that was scrapping for results and went on the unbeaten run. 

We had Cech in goal, and a backline of Bellerin, Sokratis, Holding, and Monreal. We played Xhaka and Torreira in front of them.

This season we've had Leno in goal, and a backline of Chambers, Sokratis, Luis, and Kolasinac. We've played Guendouzi and Xhaka in front of them.

We've only kept 2 of those 7 around due to injuries and player sales. On paper Leno, Sokratis, and Luis should be performing well, but the full backs are definitely worse, while the lack of defensive cover offered by Guendouzi and a breakdown in form from Xhaka. 

If you look ahead to the future of our fullbacks you've got Bellerin hopefully coming back to form and Tierney maybe hitting form towards end of the season. Their back ups aren't up to standard.

Our CB's in Holding, Chambers, and Saliba give me hope - Mavropanos I'm not sure of, while Sokratis & Luis need to be moved on for a CB in the 26-28 age range who can shepherd these young guys through while they're in their own peak.

In midfield Xhaka seems to be done with the club/fans, while Guendouzi needs more time. Again we need a solid CM in their prime to come in and raise up the talents of Willock, Guendouzi, Smithe-Rowe with experience.

We've got 3 world class players up top, 1 in goal, and we need to invest in 2 through the middle to complete the spine.

Seems pretty sensible to me Brumbys.

Arteta could do wonders with Guendouzi... and we've got Ceballos too who again could thrive in the right midfield structure - what we lack is a defensive anchor to create that triangle with our CB's. Get the right guy in there and it would do wonders for us... to me it's the single most critical piece of the puzzle.

100% agreed. We also need a functioning midfield in general; which surely Arteta can help with. (actually, he could probably sub himself on and do a better job)

Two things I couldn't care less about:

1) Man City being "furious" about the way Arsenal have approached Arteta

2) Rumours of some senior players being unimpressed with the Arteta decision, including Aubameyang's brother tweeting some crap about his lack of experience

1) Stick that in your pipe and smoke it, f*ckfaces. Lets call it a teeny tiny bit of revenge after the plundering of our players over the last 10 years, which we all know involved many approaches outside of the formal requirements for such a thing

2) Quite frankly, if you don't like it, then do one. Wenger and Emery in my mind have both been betrayed to some degree by some of these players over the years. I've zero sympathy for this kinda rubbish. Get with the programme. Give him a chance just like the two previous Managers gave you a chance, or p*ss off.

Bang on the money there paul on both counts. I'd love to see Arteta come in and clear a bunch of these players out.

This is my nomination for today's Rudan Medal (The forum post of the day...) 

Hahahaha love it.

The Rudan/Patrick incident has actually put the term "f*ckface" into my daily lexicon.

It makes no sense whatever that City weren't 'aware' of our interest considering Pep has been openly talking about it in the media. 

Also, City can get fudgeed.

Seems to be flying under the radar but strong talk out there that Ozil will leave very shortly, loan to Fenerbahce

Probably because 99% of reports from Turkey are fudgeing bullshark. No way they can afford even half his wages.

Yeah I don't believe the Fenerbace rumours. Until they prove they have some funds it's not possible. Unless Ozil is willing to quit his wages for a cut to make it happy and fulfil his boyhood 'dream' of playing in Turkey.

Similarly there's rumours Hertha Berlin under new investment will plump €45m for Xhaka. Their previous transfer record is €20m so a huge jump. Would bite their hand off though.

The most believable rumour from today is Freddie to Malmo for their head coach role </3

The most likely is the one I'm least wanting to happen :( 

Also fudgeing get in!

I was impressed by his interview and presser. I'm onboard (which I would be regardless lol). 

Oooohh that was exciiiiiting.
Please please please football gods be kind. I would really really really love this to work.

For those wanting to watch
https://player.arsenal.com/video/mikel-arteta-first-exclusive-interview#

Just want to see some sort of defined system and a midfield you can't just walk through. One of my favourite ever players so really hope he works out.

his first presser was gold, definitely worth a watch

his first presser was gold, definitely worth a watch

Spoke well, seems like he won't take any shark. Hopefully he follows through with it.