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Dear Ignorant people....

194 replies · 1,616 views
about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Footpaul wrote:
I do dislike how settlements all too often give financial benefit to Iwi elite (and lawyers!) and bypassing many Maori. All too regularly Maori on the ground recieve little benefit from the whole process. I understand Nga Tahu is an exception, an iwi where the money appears to filter down throughout - through business initiatives etc. The other issue is urbanised Maori who have become disconnected to their hapu are alienated from the process.


Very perceptive observations FP.
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Robb wrote:
loyalgunner wrote:
A bit like Lincoln, is it?
I haven't been to Lincoln so I can't really compare - but Massey Wellington left me rather un-impressed in my time there. Everything sub-standard. That being said, personal experiences differ, hopefully Dan will enjoy it more than I did.


There was a definite lack of atmosphere and a lethargy within the student body but It was good times. mostly all the hot design girls helped too :)
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Btw, if someone has time on their hands can they elaborate a little bit on the foreshore and seabed controversy?  I was young when the controversy was at it's height.  I know that the govt decided the foreshore and seabed belong to the Crown but Maori could be granted customary title to parts of it, so firstly what does customary title entail and how much of NZ's foreshore and seabed were Maori wanting?  Just the bits around where certain tribes lived or what?  And do you think the middle ground the govt took on the matter was the right idea?
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Footpaul wrote:
While I'm all for treaty settlements - I've studied NZ history - I do dislike how settlements all too often give financial benefit to Iwi elite (and lawyers!) and bypassing many Maori. All too regularly Maori on the ground recieve little benefit from the whole process. I understand Nga Tahu is an exception, an iwi where the money appears to filter down throughout - through business initiatives etc. The other issue is urbanised Maori who have become disconnected to their hapu are alienated from the process. Argh, the whole thing is just a big knot of problems, gives me a headache thinking about it. Another cider? Don't mind if I do.


people on the ground receive little benefit from the whole process.
sounds remarkably like Capitalism.

I'm never quite sure what to make of this. Is there an expectation that Waitangi Tribunal 'dividends' should somehow be dispersed totally contrary to how the rest of society operates economically?






E's Flat Ah's Flat Too

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
loyalgunner wrote:
Btw, if someone has time on their hands can they elaborate a little bit on the foreshore and seabed controversy?  I was young when the controversy was at it's height.  I know that the govt decided the foreshore and seabed belong to the Crown but Maori could be granted customary title to parts of it, so firstly what does customary title entail and how much of NZ's foreshore and seabed were Maori wanting?  Just the bits around where certain tribes lived or what?  And do you think the middle ground the govt took on the matter was the right idea?



Private Property is a right from God Himself
It is the foundation and bedrock of society.

Until Maori assert title.

We have sold off half the high country, with barely a whisper. Plenty of our coast line is in private hands. Yet a collectivized Maori ownership is seeming able to provoke apoplectic rage.

I like how Hone Hariwara has talked about this situation. However as his idea is 'anti-commerce' it can never be accepted. Which is a real pity.


E's Flat Ah's Flat Too

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
This thread is boring.

Allegedly

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
people who don't like Maori's or cannot bring themselves to participate in reparations and solutions to historical issues that affect today, should f**k off to another country.


E's Flat Ah's Flat Too

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Now that's more like it!!

I have no or little interest,but I don't hate Maori. Does that mean I should live on the sea?

Allegedly

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
your either part of the solution or your the problem
build Kon-Tiki for all I care

slightly more serious

is that a failure to address the Nation's Past has to hinder what we do today. I get tired of people saying "Maori's get over it, it was 100 years ago". Sometimes I do wish people who say such things went and lived elsewhere.



E's Flat Ah's Flat Too

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
The New Zealand Herald (and later Campbell Live) took a look at beach access earlier in the year. There are examples of both wealthy (Pakeha) land owners and iwi not allowing access through the property to pristine beaches around our coastline. So it's not a race thing, it is an arsehole thing.

I've only had the one experience with iwi over beach access, on the Mahia Peninsula south of Gisborne (absolutely gorgeous place). We rocked up with the intention of having a swim on a hot New Years Day about five years' back. A family soon came by and asked us if we had permission to be there. We said we did not know it was iwi land or we needed permission, but apologised anyway. They said that was fine considering we didn't know and were polite and invited us back to their campground. Turned out it was a family of Mongrel Mob members, who fed us and gave us drinks and let us crash at their camp after a massive piss-up. It was an incredible night, but really surreal - there is no odder group than a bunch of white, well-off, North Shore kids hanging out with gang members from Wairoa! So appearances are misleading.
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
^ great anecdote, you should be a writer

http://www.yellowfever.co.nz/users/195

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
foal30 wrote:
your either part of the solution or your the problembuild Kon-Tiki for all I careslightly more seriousis that a failure to address the Nation's Past has to hinder what we do today. I get tired of people saying "Maori's get over it, it was 100 years ago". Sometimes I do wish people who say such things went and lived elsewhere.


It was more that 170 years ago. How much longer do people have to continue to pay. Is there no settlement date? Are your greatgrand children going to continue to pay.
With a population of only 4 million people this is becoming a massive burden on taxpayers.

If you are old and wise you were probably young and stupid

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
linds2 wrote:
^ great anecdote, you should be a writer


Yeah, maybe I'll look into it!
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
foal30 wrote:

is that a failure to address the Nation's Past has to hinder what we do today. I get tired of people saying "Maori's get over it, it was 100 years ago". Sometimes I do wish people who say such things went and lived elsewhere.


I'm very much in favour of affirmative action like I assume you are from the above, but I do still understand the other view which gets annoyed when attempts are made to over-milk the demands.
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
loyalgunner wrote:
foal30 wrote:

is that a failure to address the Nation's Past has to hinder what we do today. I get tired of people saying "Maori's get over it, it was 100 years ago". Sometimes I do wish people who say such things went and lived elsewhere.


I'm very much in favour of affirmative action like I assume you are from the above, but I do still understand the other view which gets annoyed when attempts are made to over-milk the demands.


"Affirmative action" and "addressing past injustices" are not the same thing.
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Leggy wrote:
foal30 wrote:
your either part of the solution or your the problembuild Kon-Tiki for all I careslightly more seriousis that a failure to address the Nation's Past has to hinder what we do today. I get tired of people saying "Maori's get over it, it was 100 years ago". Sometimes I do wish people who say such things went and lived elsewhere.


It was more that 170 years ago. How much longer do people have to continue to pay. Is there no settlement date? Are your greatgrand children going to continue to pay.
With a population of only 4 million people this is becoming a massive burden on taxpayers.


yes, these are common complaints.
sadly they fail on a number of levels

at the risk of being even more boring than normal;

1 - it was more than x amount of years.

do we have a statue of limitations? what convergence do we have on assessing the 'correct' amount of time before we 'get over' something?

2 - how much longer do people have to pay

invariably this assumes that Maori don't pay. Which beggars belief, but sadly is the actual intellectual position some NZ'ers have taken.

3 - Is there no settlement date

Potentially the most realistic question. However the answer is not the Government of the day says it's over in xxxx. If a finish date is required than that is also part of the consultative and inclusive settlement process.

4 - Great-Grandchildren paying

who cares? Because the great-grandchildren of the colonized seemingly are not considered when we make decisions. It reads as: I am very concerned about my great-grandchildren, but I pay no heed to the generational injustice inflicted on Maori that I have directly profited from, and in fat, continue to do so.

5 - Tax Payers Burden

so are frigates, abortion services, most Members of Parliament, knighthoods, cycle helmet laws, the Police, and in fact anything I can't be bothered with today. As has been pointed out the original theft and the wealth then generated from totally super-ceeds the pittance doled out as the establishment tries justice saga.



E's Flat Ah's Flat Too

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Since Humans have been taking land of each other forever, and their is no limit in the length of time we can go back, I'm sure I'm owed something somewhere along the way?

Food for thought? Or am I just a racist?

While you probably don't feel it, if you come to the Maori discussion with any other idea than "give it all to the Maoris!" You're instantly an ignorant, racist white guy.
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

The difference though Michael, is that in all likelihood the land that was taken away from someone in your ancestory 145 generations ago has very very little effect on your current life where as the land illegally taken from Moari 3 generations ago does. 

Mr_Incredible2011-02-04 23:09:34
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
You may want to read some thing called the Treaty of Waitangi...don't know if your ancestors signed any such documents, if they had, and then got screwed over, you may be in luck.
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Robb wrote:
loyalgunner wrote:
foal30 wrote:

is that a failure to address the Nation's Past has to hinder what we do today. I get tired of people saying "Maori's get over it, it was 100 years ago". Sometimes I do wish people who say such things went and lived elsewhere.


I'm very much in favour of affirmative action like I assume you are from the above, but I do still understand the other view which gets annoyed when attempts are made to over-milk the demands.


"Affirmative action" and "addressing past injustices" are not the same thing.


They overlap significantly in some respects but yes, technically correct so point taken.
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
]So whats worst. Flat out stealing or just lying then stealing?

The point is this has happened all through history, however very recently we have decided this is wrong.

The other thing I never really understood was that didn't Maori tribes steal land of each other as well?
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Michael wrote:


The point is this has happened all through history, however very recently we have decided this is wrong.

 
Are you trying to suggest its not?
 
The fact of the matter is we signed a treaty with Maori Iwi and then went and completely ignored it.
 
Saying that it's happened all through history so we shouldn't do anything to try and make right it isridiculous. Imagine if that had been said about Slavery by William Wilberforce in England, or the north in the united states?
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Robb wrote:
Leggy wrote:
If NZ becomes a republic, is the treaty of Waitangi still valid?[/QUOTE]
 
It will indeed remain valid.
 
[quote="Former Monarchy NZ Chairman Professor Noel Cox."]"In strict legal terms, if New Zealand became a republic tomorrow it would make no difference to the Treaty of Waitangi. Speaking as a lawyer, it�s a long-established principle that successive governments take on responsibility for previous agreements.


More info: http://www.republic.org.nz/treatyofwaitangi
 

So even if there is no crown any more the agreement between the crown and Maori still stands how does that work ? Maori would therefore be relying on a  principled Pakeha majority Government to continue with the negotiations and settlements .
Why would Maori have any desire for NZ to become a republic? surely its a case of better the devil you know ?

The answer to life's problems are rarely found at the bottom of a beer glass - but it's always worth a look.

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Kiwi Jambo wrote:
So even if there is no crown any more the agreement between the crown and Maori still stands how does that work ? Maori would therefore be relying on a  principled Pakeha majority Government to continue with the negotiations and settlements .
Why would Maori have any desire for NZ to become a republic? surely its a case of better the devil you know ?
[/QUOTE]
Funny how I included a link with the words "More info" next to it, then you proceeded to ask me for more info.   I think this excerpt from that link should have your answers though:

[quote=Republic.org.nz]In 1947 New Zealand adopted the Statute of Westminster. King George VI became the King of New Zealand independent of his role as the British Monarch, and the New Zealand Crown was legally divided from the British Crown.

The sovereignty originally vested in Queen Victoria by the Treaty passed from the British Crown to the New Zealand crown. With the passing of that statute "the Crown" became "the Crown in right of New Zealand". This legal process is nothing new and happens all the time in international law. For example, in 1992 the Russian Federation acquired all of the responsibilities for the treaties of the former Soviet Union when the country was broken up.

Becoming a republic would mean transferring the Treaty's responsibilities again, as was done in 1947, to the new head of state. This would leave responsibility for the Treaty where it has always laid: with the New Zealand Parliament and its executive Government. Successive Governments have both ignored the Treaty and, more recently, set about making amends. It has been the New Zealand Parliament that has made apologies and paid reparations to Iwi, not the British Parliament.

With the establishment of colonial self-government in 1853, Great Britain delegated the colony�s governance to the colonial settlers. Confiscations carried out by �the Crown� during this period were prompted by the colonial government, not by the British Parliament. While the British-appointed Governor often fought with colonial Premiers over their policies towards M?ori, it was the New Zealand government that ignored the Treaty.

There were several M?ori delegations (including one led by King T?whiao) to London in the years following the Treaty of Waitangi. They were all dismissed, and sent back to the Colonial government in New Zealand, which ignored them. This has led some, such as M?ori lawyer and academic Moana Jackson, to argue that the real party to the Treaty is not �the Crown� in a practical sense, but �Kawanatanga�, as defined by the Treaty: the New Zealand Government, formerly the Colonial Government.

The rest of it here - http://www.republic.org.nz/treatyofwaitangi
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Michael wrote:
The point is this has happened all through history, however very recently we have decided this is wrong.


�

Are you trying to suggest its not?

�

The fact of the matter is we signed a treaty with Maori Iwi and then went and completely ignored it.

�

Saying that it's happened all through history so we shouldn't do anything�to try and make right�it�isridiculous. Imagine if that had been said about Slavery by William Wilberforce in England, or the north in the united states?
So how far back into history is it acceptable to go and correct the wrongs?

Should we be compensating specific ancestors of slaves?


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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Michael wrote:
Michael wrote:
The point is this has happened all through history, however very recently we have decided this is wrong.


�

Are you trying to suggest its not?

�

The fact of the matter is we signed a treaty with Maori Iwi and then went and completely ignored it.

�

Saying that it's happened all through history so we shouldn't do anything�to try and make right�it�isridiculous. Imagine if that had been said about Slavery by William Wilberforce in England, or the north in the united states?
So how far back into history is it acceptable to go and correct the wrongs?

Should we be compensating specific ancestors of slaves?




I like your thinking Michael. In fact, I like it so much, I have a proposal for you - sell me your house, just name your price. I will give you a $5 deposit, move into your house and settle in, and give you the rest later...or maybe not at all. I'll see how I feel.

Of course, if I choose not to pay up the rest, there'll clearly be no need for you or your kids or their kids to seek any redress, since you won't be the first sucker who fell for this.
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Well thats a shame - because you're under arrest because your great grand father stole this other guys watch once.

Oh btw - we're giving your house back to the Iwi who rightfully own it. Despite the fact you did nothing wrong while living there, if you want to remain you must now adhere to our culture. Btw don't mow the lawn or you'll upset the resident Taniwha.

I'm merely trying to say its not as clear cut and obvious as many like to pretend it is.Michael2011-02-05 19:24:29
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I'm sorry, but that's just a load of gibberish that has nothing to do with the Treaty settlement procees.
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
1) Punishing you for something your ancestors did

2) Giving away something thats yours (in the case of land, everyones) despite the fact that you haven't actually done anything wrong. And of cause you can rant about private land, but that is a different story.

Its evident the poor attitude of New Zealanders. When a differing view is posed to that of the bandwagons' - you're either a racist, stupid or completely selfish. This thread has proved it. When Helen Clark put a deadline of treaty claims (so, heaven for bid, we didn't have to do this for the next thousand years) it was evident. Plenty of examples for this and not just treaty related.Michael2011-02-05 19:42:01
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Michael wrote:
Giving away something thats yours (in the case of land, everyones) despite the fact that you haven't actually done anything wrong. And of cause you can rant about private land, but that is a different story.
 
Except that the crown did do something wrong. They stole it in the first place.
 
I should also point out that the land is only everyone's because the iwi signed the treaty. But you know, we should ignore that.
Mr_Incredible2011-02-05 19:42:35
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Michael wrote:
Giving away something thats yours (in the case of land, everyones) despite the fact that you haven't actually done anything wrong. And of cause you can rant about private land, but that is a different story. [/QUOTE]

Except that the crown did do something wrong. They stole it in the first place.

I should also point out that the land is only everyone's because the iwi signed the treaty. But you know, we should ignore that.

[QUOTE=Michael]So how far back into history is it acceptable to go and correct the wrongs?

Should we be compensating specific ancestors of slaves?
Michael2011-02-05 19:45:20
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
So what your saying is that because the crown stole this land a whole 150 years ago they should just pretend they didn't?
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Not at all, I'm saying you should answer the questions.
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

In all honesty I wouldn't have a problem with some form of compensation given to african-americans. Probably not a cash sum, but if, for example, there were tax breaks given on certain things such as healthcare to help curb the obvious difference between the socio-economic status of european and african americans.

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Michael wrote:
So how far back into history is it acceptable to go and correct the wrongs?
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
That depends on the circumstances. As a rule, I'd say if the wrong is still having an effect on the people who it was done on correcting it would be a good idea.
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Hey, im new to this Country...when do I get to slap a few people around and take some land?
 
 
 

"Ive just re-visited this and once again realised that C-Diddy is a genius - a drunk, Newcastle bred disgrace - but a genius." - Hard News, 11:39am 4th June 2009

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

In all honesty I wouldn't have a problem with some form of compensation given to african-americans. Probably not a cash sum, but if, for example, there were tax breaks given on certain things such as healthcare�to help curb the obvious difference between the socio-economic status of european and african americans.



Yeah. That's a great way to bring equality and bridge racial gaps.

I'm being sarcastic by the way.

You can't give one race a tax break and not any other,that's racist. It's not equality,it's "we treated you like crap so now we'll reverse that". Meanwhile people of the races that aren't getting the tax breaks get a negative attitude toward those that do. Suddenly a backward step has been taken.

The way to equality is to treat everybody equally.

This is nothing to do with land claims etc. Entirely different kettle of fish. But we can't let it hold us back as a country,which it is. It's dividing the country into us vs them. It's important that all claims be settled and quickly.

Anyway,this thread is boring.

Allegedly

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

In all honesty I wouldn't have a problem with some form of compensation given to african-americans. Probably not a cash sum, but if, for example, there were tax breaks given on certain things such as healthcare to help curb the obvious difference between the socio-economic status of european and african americans.

And therein lies the fundamental flaw with the majority of the  "solutions" to  "Race" problems.............. create a racially biased law, that favours one race over another.
 
Not gonna work, is it ?

We're the WELLINGTON Phoenix

And this is our Home

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
they never stole their land just bought it at a very very undervalued rate scammed land maybe but not stolen 

i'm going to try it on, my grand parents  had a home sold it for a loss. in a fifty years time or so i'm going to go back and ask for that land back, my family was there before the new owners were so they should leave regardless of what they paid for it



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