A-league Expansion - Derbies

I guess you see how the mooted new OFC professional club league goes first. To kick off next year???  If it's well run, financially viable, commercial sponsors jump on board etc etc - then that's a first step to going up the next level to an A League club. Agree the Francophile countries together, are likely the best contender to put a team together.

Fiji Drua are now firmly a part of Super Rugby, and a PNG team looks likely to be the next NRL expansion club. That's after 10 years of having a PNG team in the semi professional QLD Cup (one level below the NRL).

So yeah with time a Pacific based A League club could happen. Crowds will likely never be an issue. Paying an $18M licence entrance fee, getting strong commercial sponsors on board, high level broadcast & training facilities etc etc these will all be big hurdles. Especially the entrance fee! 

Though New Caledonia receives $1.5bn in financial support annually from France (big reason why they voted narrowly against independence last time out). So $18M ain't much among that, if Marcon or whoever is happy to sign off.

I think the on the ground facilities in Noumea are ready for an A-League team. I went to a watch a game at the Numa Daly stadium in Noumea a while back. It seats around 10,000 and has TV standard lighting. Across the road is another ground which would be suitable for training. When you visit Noumea you quickly réalisé that it’s not like other Pacific capitals. It feels more like a modern French Mediterranean city. New Caledonian has a GDP per capital third in our region just behind Oz and NZ. There is a big push by those in control to “reward” the NC non independence vote. Bankrolling an A-League team would be hugely popular. Economically it would be a boost for local tourism.

When the FFA was in charge they talked about expanding into Asia, with a possible team in Singapore. You think it would be politically unpopular expanding further into another confederation, even if it was financially doable?

During the WWC in NZ last year the bald git head of FIFA was asked about the Oceania Confederation and he said he was strongly in favor of any initiatives to strengthen football in the region. He even visited some Pacific Islands during his stay to meet local officials. I don’t think there would too many political problems expanding the A-League into Oceania. Who knows, some time in the future there could be A-League clubs in Wellington, Auckland, Christchurch and Noumea.

coochiee

I guess you see how the mooted new OFC professional club league goes first. To kick off next year???  If it's well run, financially viable, commercial sponsors jump on board etc etc - then that's a first step to going up the next level to an A League club. Agree the Francophile countries together, are likely the best contender to put a team together.

Fiji Drua are now firmly a part of Super Rugby, and a PNG team looks likely to be the next NRL expansion club. That's after 10 years of having a PNG team in the semi professional QLD Cup (one level below the NRL).

So yeah with time a Pacific based A League club could happen. Crowds will likely never be an issue. Paying an $18M licence entrance fee, getting strong commercial sponsors on board, high level broadcast & training facilities etc etc these will all be big hurdles. Especially the entrance fee! 

Though New Caledonia receives $1.5bn in financial support annually from France (big reason why they voted narrowly against independence last time out). So $18M ain't much among that, if Marcon or whoever is happy to sign off.

I think a French themed A League club pinching the best from Oceania has more chance of success then a pro OFC league.  

There is too much corruption in other parts of the confederation for that to happen and look at how bad OFC is at organising tourneys full stop, whether at club or international level.

If it makes the Tahitian and New Caledonian national teams stronger and prevents their best trying to represent France, even better.  Can only be a win for all of Oceania including the Ferns and AWs. 

But can the Noumea populace afford the cost of ticket prices sufficient to help fund the team? Its easy to get big crowds to games in the Pacific when they cost bugger all or let people in for free.

austin111

During the WWC in NZ last year the bald git head of FIFA was asked about the Oceania Confederation and he said he was strongly in favor of any initiatives to strengthen football in the region. He even visited some Pacific Islands during his stay to meet local officials. I don’t think there would too many political problems expanding the A-League into Oceania. Who knows, some time in the future there could be A-League clubs in Wellington, Auckland, Christchurch and Noumea.

An important carrot, Would be to allow all teams that win the A League, to play in the Asian Champion's League. Currently we can't, Auckland won't be allowed to.......

Yeah, I think expanding the leaue into Oceania (Pacific Islands) is a great idea, but then you have the problem of the cross confederation league with some teams able to qualify for the Asian comp and the rest not. Imagine having teams representing Wellington, Auckland, Christchurch, Fiji, Samoa, Tonga in the league, plus Canberra. Thats 6 new teams addded to the current 12, 18 team league across two confederations. Surely at that point Oceania would join Asia? 
I wonder if this discussion comes up if/when the Niox win the league?

theprof

Yeah, I think expanding the leaue into Oceania (Pacific Islands) is a great idea, but then you have the problem of the cross confederation league with some teams able to qualify for the Asian comp and the rest not. Imagine having teams representing Wellington, Auckland, Christchurch, Fiji, Samoa, Tonga in the league, plus Canberra. Thats 6 new teams addded to the current 12, 18 team league across two confederations. Surely at that point Oceania would join Asia? 
I wonder if this discussion comes up if/when the Niox win the league?

Doing that, would mean Home & Away games, only play each other only twice (Some not 3 times)which is a 36 game season. 

I'd take it a step further, if there has to be "finals" ONLY top 4 teams play in them. 1 V 3 & 2 V 4 - Home & Away, winners meet in the Grandfinal.

LG

theprof

Yeah, I think expanding the leaue into Oceania (Pacific Islands) is a great idea, but then you have the problem of the cross confederation league with some teams able to qualify for the Asian comp and the rest not. Imagine having teams representing Wellington, Auckland, Christchurch, Fiji, Samoa, Tonga in the league, plus Canberra. Thats 6 new teams addded to the current 12, 18 team league across two confederations. Surely at that point Oceania would join Asia? 
I wonder if this discussion comes up if/when the Niox win the league?

Doing that, would mean Home & Away games, only play each other only twice (Some not 3 times)which is a 36 game season. 

I'd take it a step further, if there has to be "finals" ONLY top 4 teams play in them. 1 V 3 & 2 V 4 - Home & Away, winners meet in the Grandfinal.

The ideal is exactly that, home and away season, none of this play some teams three times and others twice to get 27 games. Minimum is a 16 team league which will give a 30 game season (home and away). The finals series is contrived but I agree when we have a settled 'ideal' number of teams with promo relegation then a top four playoff would be fine. Thats what the second div is gonna go through for promotion.

Napier Phoenix

But can the Noumea populace afford the cost of ticket prices sufficient to help fund the team? Its easy to get big crowds to games in the Pacific when they cost bugger all or let people in for free.

New Caledonia's wages are actually very high because the French government subsidises people from the mainland to live there (hence the cost of living is very high too). So at least the people with good civil service jobs could afford it.

theprof

Yeah, I think expanding the leaue into Oceania (Pacific Islands) is a great idea, but then you have the problem of the cross confederation league with some teams able to qualify for the Asian comp and the rest not. Imagine having teams representing Wellington, Auckland, Christchurch, Fiji, Samoa, Tonga in the league, plus Canberra. Thats 6 new teams addded to the current 12, 18 team league across two confederations. Surely at that point Oceania would join Asia? 
I wonder if this discussion comes up if/when the Niox win the league?

Too much Kava if you think Samoa or Tonga will ever have a A League club!! The no 1 codes there are rugby or league, and Super Rugby team Moana Pasika can't even make it work commercially to base themelves there. Talk of them now moving from South Auckland to Hawaii. Tonga & Samoa just way too poor & small.

It's going to be tough enough for an A League club to get going in New Caledonia/Tahiti. Slimmer chance in Solomons, Vanuatu, PNG or Fiji. No chance anywhere else in OFC. As above France subsidises NC to the tune of $1.5Bn per year - that and the fact football is the major code there, gives them a chance.

ALM may get to 18 teams (34 game regular season) but that will mean places like Tassie, The Gong, Christchurch, 2nd QLD team etc. Yeah maybe one club in the OFC. And at this stage APL's longer term plan is expansion to 20 clubs, and then a split 10 team A1 & A2 leagues with pro/rel. How the Japanese setup their professional J League pyramid (J1, J2 & J3).

Yipe I imagine FIFA & AFC would be okay with NC/Tahiti team joining the A League. Basically same as the Nix & Auckland FC. But the AFC Champions League participation issue to me is an over talked, over rated matter. Name the winners of the AFC CL since WSW won it? Exactly, no one can. Macarthur play Sabah in Sydney tomorrow. Will the crowd fleshed out by Malaysian expats reach 1,000? The Nix play two games in 5 days, and go from 12,000 to 6,000. 

Would we want the team flying to sweaty Bangkok this week and then onto to Sydney for the weekend, stretching an already thin squad, when they are finally actually a real title contender. It's a blessing not to be involved in the AFC CL, especially this season. Playing in that comp for Melb City (leading to a very congested fixture list for them last season), definitely played a part in their limp GF performance against the Mariners. 

Still-ACL matches in Wellington against teams from Japan/Aussie/Korea/Saudi Arabia/…! 

And geez- imagine you’re Hughes or Conchie playing 90 minutes away in Thailand or Vietnam or Tokyo or Riyadh and getting a result! If that isn’t a highlight of your football career you’ve got no romance. Remember our brief cup run in the Australia Cup with Pennington, Jaushy, Fenton and Paulsen? That was magic. We’ve had two RoF pen shoot outs iirc. I think they should add another local cup tbh. 

Surely as big an event game as the Beckham one if sold correctly? Market 2 for ones, kids free, get in sponsors who can be seen across Asia ( I’d be hitting up Zespri and Mānuka honey for starters), selling our kits online…geez left out Beijing, Guangzhou or Shanghai. All amazing cities for our young footballers to experience. 

Correction. Macarthur are not in the AFC Champions League, but the 2nd tier Asian comp - AFC Cup (think Europa League).

Phnom Penh Crown, Dynamic Herb Cebu, Shan United were in MAC's pool. Tomorrow is Sabah from Malaysia (Zonal semi final)
Win that tie and it's likely the Mariners in the next round (Zonal final)
Win that and it's Odisha from India.
Winner of that plays winner of Abdysh-Ata Kant (Kyrgyzstan) v  Taichung Futuro (Taiwan).
Winner of that plays a Middle Eastern team in the final. A team from Bahrain, Oman, Lebanon or Iraq.

So not many glamour ties in that, even if Bulls or Mariners get all the way to the final.

Yipe the AFC Champions League is where the AFC big teams all are. But the A League only gets 1 spot these days. This year was Melb City. They exited after the pool stage playing Ventforet Kofu (J2), Zhejiang (China) & Buriram United (Thailand).

What does that mean in the case of Newcastle Jets?

The A-League doesn't have a spectacular record around keeping teams in the competition and generally having steady operations.

loyalgunner

What does that mean in the case of Newcastle Jets?

The A-League doesn't have a spectacular record around keeping teams in the competition and generally having steady operations.

Basically, if the current bid for the Jets falls thru, the Jets are gonna fold.

RR

loyalgunner

What does that mean in the case of Newcastle Jets?

The A-League doesn't have a spectacular record around keeping teams in the competition and generally having steady operations.

Basically, if the current bid for the Jets falls thru, the Jets are gonna fold.

And it seems it'll fall over due to the APL not giving the info the buyers want

theprof

RR

loyalgunner

What does that mean in the case of Newcastle Jets?

The A-League doesn't have a spectacular record around keeping teams in the competition and generally having steady operations.

Basically, if the current bid for the Jets falls thru, the Jets are gonna fold.

And it seems it'll fall over due to the APL not giving the info the buyers want

If you read the article, the APL says it doesn't own the Jets. It is up the consortium of 4 clubs (WSW/Sydney/Western & possibly City) that hold the Jets license to come to a sale arrangement. So I wonder if this is also an ultimatum to them as well, stop trying to re-coup all your losses and get the deal done before you end up getting nothing. 

All the articles that I have seen have said the four clubs in the consortium are Western United, WSW, Sydney, and the Phoenix.

Speculation that I saw online was that the competition was required to field 12 clubs for the TV deal and with Auckland coming on board they can now let the Jets fold.

But Newcastle is apparently some sort of heart of Australian football so it would be a pretty bad look for it to fold. I wonder why Ross Pelligra bought Perth rather than Newcastle, he's Melbourne based and his businesses are on the East Coast, so you'd think Newcastle would be closer to home.

The ESPN article says they understand the 4th club is City.

Wonder if it was miss reported or if welnix pulled out. When they cut the budget of the nix this season they might have also reassessed their position with the jets.

It was always an odd thing for us to do.

RR

The ESPN article says they understand the 4th club is City.

Screenshot_2024-03-19-21-16-16-83_40deb401b9ffe8e1df2f1cc5ba480b12.jpg 226.89 KB

They must have corrected the article. Good on the owners for supporting the league. It must be putting additional strain on an already strained phoenix budget. No wonder they cut our wage bill

https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/39762107/aleague-cant-guarantee-future-newcastle-canberra

imanixsupporter

RR

The ESPN article says they understand the 4th club is City.

Screenshot_2024-03-19-21-16-16-83_40deb401b9ffe8e1df2f1cc5ba480b12.jpg 226.89 KB

Bah, Joey Lynch has done me dirty by changing his article.

theprof

RR

loyalgunner

What does that mean in the case of Newcastle Jets?

The A-League doesn't have a spectacular record around keeping teams in the competition and generally having steady operations.

Basically, if the current bid for the Jets falls thru, the Jets are gonna fold.

And it seems it'll fall over due to the APL not giving the info the buyers want

By the sounds of it, the buyers are only half hearted time wasters. They've been dragging the process along for ages. Time for the Jets owners to kick out the tyre kickers.

I think the Canberra men's team is still born too given how quiet that is and all the issues around the Canberra Ladies team.

Mostly pointless exercise, partly inspired by reading Jayden Smith is from Nelson. But mostly by the excitement around the NZ football scene with a 2nd ALM team, and the upcoming Batlles of Middle Earth. So why not a 3rd team.

Plus the new stadium in Christchurch is taking shape - it looks like it is going to be quite awesome - and Nix confirming a 3 year deal for annual games in the Garden City.

A possible Christchurch ALM 11, for new team launch in say season 2026/2027. A team built around football players from the Mainland. Though I'm sure if a club ever actually happened they would recruit from all over NZ, and Oz as well. But you'd need a few Cantabs for the locals to get behind.

Just need an American Billionaire (or any Billionaire) to first roll into town.

GK - Dublin Boon or Matt Foord
CBs - Jayden Smith and Finn Surman (the MLS didn't work out)
Full backs - Matt Sheridan and James McGarry 
Midfielders - Joe Zen Bell (captain - Europe didn't work out), Willem Ebbinge, Seth Clark.
Forwards - Luke Supyk, Oscar Obel-Hall, Joel Stevens

Other possibilities - Tze-Xuan Loke, Callan Elliot, Francis de Vries, Angus Kilkolly, Erik Panzer, Kian Donkers, Oliver Colloty, any male relative of Macey Fraser, Steve Summer's grandson

No doubt I've missed a few others originally from the Mainland.

Coaching staff - Paul Ifill (head gaffer). Assistants Siggie and Aaron Clapham
Director of Football - a WFH role so he stays mostly in Washington DC, Ryan Nelsen


Edit - last year's NZ 17s as well as Foord had fellow Cantabs, Nick Murphy (now at Weenix) and Mac Prathumphithak both at Christchurch United.

This year's NZU16s had Joseph Chalabi at Christchurch United, and Henry Murfitt at Selwyn United. So a few younger Mainlanders also coming through the ranks. Slava Meyn's facilities and Academy at ChCh United slowly getting some results.

Probably been brought up before but how viable would Brisbane, Adelaide or Perth be for 2nd expansion teams?

Brisbane and Perth both have populations north of 2m and Adelaide recently showed that there are a lot of people outside of just Adelaide United fans who're willing to turn up to a football match during the socceroos vs China match.

I know expanding into existing markets is a bit cheap but Australia and NZ don't exactly have many cities outside the ones that already have franchises. Obviously there's still Canberra and Christchurch as cities with decent populations but Canberra is taking forever so that only leaves Christchurch which I feel like the Aussies wouldn't like. 

Noah4thenix

Probably been brought up before but how viable would Brisbane, Adelaide or Perth be for 2nd expansion teams?

Brisbane and Perth both have populations north of 2m and Adelaide recently showed that there are a lot of people outside of just Adelaide United fans who're willing to turn up to a football match during the socceroos vs China match.

I know expanding into existing markets is a bit cheap but Australia and NZ don't exactly have many cities outside the ones that already have franchises. Obviously there's still Canberra and Christchurch as cities with decent populations but Canberra is taking forever so that only leaves Christchurch which I feel like the Aussies wouldn't like. 

A lot will depend on how well the Auckland franchise will do, not so much this season but 2-3 seasons down the track when the novelty wears off and some of the inaugural season stars (and/or staff) move on. 

APL stated a plan last year to eventually expand to 20 teams (so 7 teams above the 13 for this season), and then split into 10 team A1 & A2 divisions with pro/rel.
https://worldsoccertalk.com/news/australia-reveal-plan-to-embrace-promotion-and-relegation-20230528-WST-435105.html

How feasible a 20 team comp is, when you hear rumours that the Mariners (a successful club) may hand their licence back to the APL - well you have to ask serious questions

But if you include Canberra that's 14 clubs, with luck for NZ a Christchurch franchise makes 15 (Pragnell has openly said NZF want a 3rd NZ club) then 5 others.

Alot will depend how the National Second Division (NSD) goes, if it indeed does start in 2025. Clubs like South Melbourne have stated openly they see the NSD as a step to joining the A League. If 3-5 teams in that comp consistently get crowds of 5K plus, attract strong commercial partners, can find a $20M entrance fee etc etc. Then who knows.

I think the NSD is going to start with only 8-10 clubs from VIC, NSW & maybe QLD. Avondale, Preston Lions, South Melbourne (all VIC), APIA Leichhardt, Marconi Stallions, Sydney Olympic, Sydney United 58 and Wollongong Wolves (all NSW) - the 8 clubs initially invited into the NSD.

In QLD the Roar are struggling. They seemed to only get 4-5K to their games last season. Though the new mooted Perry Park (traditional football venue in Brissy) upgrade, if it happens would be great for the Roar. SE QLD continues to grow fast. Like 4M people now live within about 100 kms of the Brisbane CBD. It might be the Gold Coast, Ipswich or even Sunny Coast where I live (got a perfect sized stadium) that got a 2nd QLD club. Lots of infrastructure projects (new & upgrades) to happen prior to the 2032 Olympics.

There is a shark load of wealth in Perth. Take a ferry trip down the Swan River and get a commentary of all the river front mansions with heli pads, owned by mining billionaires. Do any of them like football? No idea but also a growing population, and plenty of football loving Poms live there. WA has just had it's proposed NRL expansion club plans knocked back.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl-premiership/nrl-2024-western-bears-expansion-bid-denied-by-arlc-peter-vlandys-shock-decision-expansion-north-sydney-western-australia-png-news-videos/news-story/dca81ca014fdea0754d5f45a308086c7


So yeah if it ever gets to 20 teams from the current 13, I'd go -
Canberra, 2nd Perth, 2nd QLD, Sth Melb, Gong Wolves, another NPL club that hits good metrics in the NSD, and with luck Mainlanders FC from Aotearoa.

Noah4thenix

Probably been brought up before but how viable would Brisbane, Adelaide or Perth be for 2nd expansion teams?

Brisbane and Perth both have populations north of 2m and Adelaide recently showed that there are a lot of people outside of just Adelaide United fans who're willing to turn up to a football match during the socceroos vs China match.

I know expanding into existing markets is a bit cheap but Australia and NZ don't exactly have many cities outside the ones that already have franchises. Obviously there's still Canberra and Christchurch as cities with decent populations but Canberra is taking forever so that only leaves Christchurch which I feel like the Aussies wouldn't like. 

Queensland needs a second team. 5.5m people live there and there is only one pathway for talent. Gold Coast has the population but its been a graveyard for sports teams in the past. Not sure if the Suns & Titans have shifted that perception tho.

Surely Gold Coast or a 2nd Brisbane team will pop up eventually.

Queensland is far too big for 1 team. If Auckland does well I can see them revisiting GC and maybe Townsville in the future.

Tassie surely due for a team as well, Hobart is at least bigger than Townsville.

RR

Noah4thenix

Probably been brought up before but how viable would Brisbane, Adelaide or Perth be for 2nd expansion teams?

Brisbane and Perth both have populations north of 2m and Adelaide recently showed that there are a lot of people outside of just Adelaide United fans who're willing to turn up to a football match during the socceroos vs China match.

I know expanding into existing markets is a bit cheap but Australia and NZ don't exactly have many cities outside the ones that already have franchises. Obviously there's still Canberra and Christchurch as cities with decent populations but Canberra is taking forever so that only leaves Christchurch which I feel like the Aussies wouldn't like. 

Queensland needs a second team. 5.5m people live there and there is only one pathway for talent. Gold Coast has the population but its been a graveyard for sports teams in the past. Not sure if the Suns & Titans have shifted that perception tho.

Yeah a 2nd QLD team doesn't need to be in Brissy. It could well be the Goldy.

But both the AFL's Suns and NRL's Titans have been propped by their national bodies at different times, courtesy of the huge TV media rights deals.

APL don't have that up their wafer thin sleeves, they rely on football loving multi millionaire/billionaire club owners for their clubs to survive.

Unsure how in A League club would go in Tassie. It's all about Aussie Rules down there. And they are finally getting an AFL club there in 2028, backed by their State Govt. But the Apple Isle has a stagnant/decling and aging population. Also limited big business there. An A League club could struggle, overshadowed by the beast that is the AFL.

No one sitting on the Sunshine Coast thinking, Goldy is a tried and failed, we really want that team here? 

martinb

No one sitting on the Sunshine Coast thinking, Goldy is a tried and failed, we really want that team here? 

Sunshine Coast football community would be smaller than the Gold Coast (popn 750K), though getting bigger all the time. Lots of UK expats here, but otherwise she's pretty 'white' not getting the immigrants from football hot beds overseas like the bigger cities. There is a Sunny Coast Fire team in the QLD NPL, but they are always near the bottom, seem disorganised, and a franchise setup that some local clubs don't like. They have launched a bid to enter the NSD.

Sunny Coast (popn 350K) has really nice 15,000 odd capacity stadium that will be upgraded to all seating for the Olympics. Hosts some NRL games during the season. Melbourne Storm's feeder team is the Sunshine Coast Falcons. There is a National netball team in the Sunshine Coast Lightning, otherwise no other clubs in any of the various national sporting leagues are based here.

Gold Coast has 2 teams in the QLD NPL, GC Knights and GC United (the old ALM club I think). Knights won the the QLD NPL this year. I think they have also entered a NSD bid. GC is obviously bigger than the Sunny Coast, more glitz & glamour, and more higher profile football types. Scott McDonald coaches the Knights, Kristian Rees coached GC United until 2021, Brad Inman plays for the Knights, Smeltzy played for GC United up until last year.

And there is just more big money types on the GC. Some capable of financing an A League club, aka Mr Palmer. 

Surely a PI team is the next cab off the rank. There are enough good players across the Pacific to make a decent side and in places like NCL, Solomon Islands, Fiji and Tahiti the fans will turn up.

As things stand, I can't see another team coming from Australia any time soon (except for someone like South Melbourne) given it looks like CCM, WU and McArthur all appear to be struggling. I can't see Canberra happening either, that has dragged on far too long which surely means it will fall over completely, sooner or later.

I'd say basically zero chance of an A League club setting up in one of the OFC island nations, for a myriad of different reasons. 

coochiee

I'd say basically zero chance of an A League club setting up in one of the OFC island nations, for a myriad of different reasons. 

I hear that but part of the deal of Aus leaving OFC was that they were to support the development of PI football. Being part of the A League is the best way of honouring that deal and everyone wins.

The FA have been sending some of their age group teams to the Islands to play games this year. So they are doing some work helping out OFC.

Lets not forget Football Australia no longer run the A League, so it would need to be a private independent body in the APL, that would have to see value in having an OFC based club.

Just can't see it happening. 

Poor infrastructure, struggle to produce quality grass pitches in their tropical climate, small population bases (outside PNG where rugby league is the no 1 sport), limited scope for extra TV rights money, limited large commercial sponsor opportunities, civil unrest all too common (see New Caledonia now), corruption - and most importantly not that an attractive a location for any football loving billionaires to invest.

Hopefully the Island nations can get their proposed OFC professional club league up & running. But the continued lack of news on that front, ain't promising.