A-league Expansion - Derbies

This expansion debate keeps going around in circles. The biggest problem is that the organizers before and now have been obsessed by the American franchise model. This model goes completely against the global football culture that has stood the test of time. Football is tribal, thats what motivates fans to become engaged with something they identify with. Creating franchises based on  tenuous urban geography will always be a struggle. 
It can work when you have one club in each city, like the Nix, but is always difficult to meaningfully divide up a big big city and get fan engagement. What the authorities have failed to grasp is there are already proper football clubs in Australia who would easily slot into the A League. South Melbourne being an obvious example. That’s where your expansion will come from. There are not enough Foleys out there to make the franchise model work.

It should be noted that with the new proposed NRL club in PNG, the Australian Govt is going to throw in $600M!! to help set the club and other related investments in PNG. They don't want China being the favoured investor on their northern doorstep.

https://ministryofsport.com/papua-new-guinea-to-join-nrl-as-19th-team-in-600m-expansion/#:~:text=2%20min%20read-,Papua%20New%20Guinea%20Reportedly%20Set%20to%20Join%20NRL%20as%2019th,%24600M%20Government%2DBacked%20Expansion&text=In%20a%20significant%20development%2C%20Papua,by%20the%20Australian%20federal%20government.

Under the proposed deal, the (Australian) federal government would allocate $60 million upfront as a licence fee for the new team, to be distributed among the 17 existing NRL clubs – offering $3.5 million per club to offset financial concerns regarding the expansion. The remaining $540 million investment would be split, with $290 million supporting the team’s operations over the next decade and $250 million directed toward education, infrastructure, and social welfare programs in Papua New Guinea, reflecting the government’s commitment to regional development beyond rugby league. Once the 10-year funding agreement concludes, the PNG team will need to financial support itself.


I think it has been discussed prior, but the only likely destination where an OFC A League club could work is Taihiti, or New Caledonia. The French Government massively subsidises these territories, and maybe silly enough one day to consider launching a football team in either. Helps that football is the no 1 code in that part of the Pacific, unlike PNG, Fiji, Samoa, Tonga.

austin111

This expansion debate keeps going around in circles. The biggest problem is that the organizers before and now have been obsessed by the American franchise model. This model goes completely against the global football culture that has stood the test of time. Football is tribal, thats what motivates fans to become engaged with something they identify with. Creating franchises based on  tenuous urban geography will always be a struggle. 
It can work when you have one club in each city, like the Nix, but is always difficult to meaningfully divide up a big big city and get fan engagement. What the authorities have failed to grasp is there are already proper football clubs in Australia who would easily slot into the A League. South Melbourne being an obvious example. That’s where your expansion will come from. There are not enough Foleys out there to make the franchise model work.

Mostly agree. SM should have been in the league before Melbourne Heart and definitely Western United. But can SM raise a $20M licencing entrance fee?  Will their crowds be much more than 5,000?

Admittedly it was midweek in the middle of winter, but their crowd against the Nix in the Australia Cup was in the range 2,000-3,000 wasn't it??

Any NPL club coming into the A League in the future, should still be prepared to operate at a loss, and so have some wealthy financial backers behind them. NRL clubs each get over $20M as a disbursement from the NRl. $20M each!

A League clubs $530K each now from the APL. Even if you are lucky enough to sell some players to Europe (and that's hard to budget for), without some wealthy owners you fall over.

Unless the APL can turn around the ever shrinking media rights deal, and get back to paying the clubs, all minimum $3M a season as a disbursement, I fail to see how they could ever expand to the targeted 20 teams, with a 2 division split.

Skyzaid

Surely Gold Coast or a 2nd Brisbane team will pop up eventually.

Queensland is far too big for 1 team. If Auckland does well I can see them revisiting GC and maybe Townsville in the future.

Tassie surely due for a team as well, Hobart is at least bigger than Townsville.

Gold Coast? A second Queensland team? You're having a laugh! Been tried, died a death and has faded into the distant memories of those of us who have been around the block a few times.
I like the idea of a bigger competition. To get to 20 the league needs another 7 teams and we already have one wanting to hand back their licence (CCM) and another that is struggling to get itself off the ground (Canberra). 
Assuming CCM and Canberra are here ongoing we have a league of 14. 6 More teams to make 20, Christchurch would be great, a second team from Western Aus too, dont need another Sydney or Melbourne team. Tasmania could be an option.

People need to see the comp as viable... the MLS struggles initially, but look at how football has taken off over there. I'm not saying the A League will do the same, but there is scope for growth.

I think one of the bigger factors moving forward will be the success of Irikandu and Old for example. If these younger players go overseas, make it and generate great future revenue through sell on clauses etc.

I think that line of thought is already emerging personally, it just needs a couple 'wins' to take off.

MetalLegNZ

People need to see the comp as viable... the MLS struggles initially, but look at how football has taken off over there. I'm not saying the A League will do the same, but there is scope for growth.

I think one of the bigger factors moving forward will be the success of Irikandu and Old for example. If these younger players go overseas, make it and generate great future revenue through sell on clauses etc.

I think that line of thought is already emerging personally, it just needs a couple 'wins' to take off.

The US market is massive though, not saying the Aussie market isnt but the US is huge!

The South Melbourne tragics on the inside-sport forum are adamant that they wouldn't join the A-League now if they were begged

theprof

Skyzaid

Surely Gold Coast or a 2nd Brisbane team will pop up eventually.

Queensland is far too big for 1 team. If Auckland does well I can see them revisiting GC and maybe Townsville in the future.

Tassie surely due for a team as well, Hobart is at least bigger than Townsville.

Gold Coast? A second Queensland team? You're having a laugh! Been tried, died a death and has faded into the distant memories of those of us who have been around the block a few times.
I like the idea of a bigger competition. To get to 20 the league needs another 7 teams and we already have one wanting to hand back their licence (CCM) and another that is struggling to get itself off the ground (Canberra). 
Assuming CCM and Canberra are here ongoing we have a league of 14. 6 More teams to make 20, Christchurch would be great, a second team from Western Aus too, dont need another Sydney or Melbourne team. Tasmania could be an option.

The 3rd version of an Auckland team is going to succeed after 2 flops. A billionaire owner helps but Auckland (and NZ) has also seen its football community get bigger in the last 15 odd years since the Knights

The same is true for SE QLD, and Perry Park’s redevelopment is important. Maybe it’s a 2nd Brissy team like the Strikers and they ground share with the Roar, aka the Milan teams!! Right location and a 2nd QLD team should work

But the APL needs to sort out its Media rights income. $530k per club is hopeless 

austin111

This expansion debate keeps going around in circles. The biggest problem is that the organizers before and now have been obsessed by the American franchise model. This model goes completely against the global football culture that has stood the test of time. Football is tribal, thats what motivates fans to become engaged with something they identify with. Creating franchises based on  tenuous urban geography will always be a struggle. 
It can work when you have one club in each city, like the Nix, but is always difficult to meaningfully divide up a big big city and get fan engagement. What the authorities have failed to grasp is there are already proper football clubs in Australia who would easily slot into the A League. South Melbourne being an obvious example. That’s where your expansion will come from. There are not enough Foleys out there to make the franchise model work.

Promotion and relegation works in countries where football is the main sport, and present historically, inspiring local loyalties on a large scale.   In countries where it is created from nothing, franchise system seems to the prevailing model.  You create a franchise and then try to grow local loyalty around it.  

Doloras

The South Melbourne tragics on the inside-sport forum are adamant that they wouldn't join the A-League now if they were begged

That's all posturing similar to the ACFC tragics. I'm sure if fans of both teams were told today they would be for the 25/26 A League season they'd be creaming themselves in delight.

Marto

Surely a PI team is the next cab off the rank. There are enough good players across the Pacific to make a decent side and in places like NCL, Solomon Islands, Fiji and Tahiti the fans will turn up.

As things stand, I can't see another team coming from Australia any time soon (except for someone like South Melbourne) given it looks like CCM, WU and McArthur all appear to be struggling. I can't see Canberra happening either, that has dragged on far too long which surely means it will fall over completely, sooner or later.

They've talked about teams from Singapore and Malaysia in the past, I doubt they would extend add a pacific island team.

Interesting article given the talk of and NZF's clear desire, for a 3rd NZ ALM team based in Christchurch.

You do sense journo Tony Smith doesn't believe all the claims being made by Graham Lowe & co about the Orca's readiness for a new NRL club bid.

Still seems there might be some commercial dollars floating around the Canterbury sporting scene, looking to invest. For a rugby league franchise anyway. 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/360479607/ex-kiwis-coach-graham-lowe-fronts-southern-orcas-bid-christchurch-based-nrl-club

I hope there is a bit happening now, behind the scenes re trying to find the cash to launch a 3rd team based in the South Island.

This article from a year ago, and given the on & off field success of new boys Auckland since then, you'd think some people of wealth down in the South maybe showing some interest in joining Meyn in an ownership consortium. And/or bringing in an overseas investor(s).

NZF will also be soon very flush with cash when the AWs qualify in March. They maybe able to financially help with staff salaries etc, like they did when the Phoenix started it's women's team. Tapping into Meyn and Christchurch United's training facilities plus academy setup makes sense. Training facilites is something the new team in the northern isthmus, is still struggling to sort out.

But to date AFC have been very smart with how they have built good relationships with the Northern Region clubs, and their pathway plan for promising players to stay at their home clubs as long as possible. Any potential startup Southern franchise should do similar I reckon, and yes try represent the whole Island not just Canterbury.

Lastly I think NZ should basically avoid getting involved in the new proposed OFC pro league. Odds are it will be poorly organised, could easily last only a few seasons, will be played on bumpy pitches which means shark football, hopeless for good player development.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/a-league/133459221/christchurch-united-president-slava-meyn-interested-in-aleague-football-franchise-bid

New Zealand Football (NZF) are keen for an A-League franchise in the South Island as the next step after the new Auckland club’s inclusion for the 2024-25 A-League Men season and the 2025-26 women’s competition.

“The A-Leagues have made a significant strategic decision by saying, ‘we’re all in with New Zealand’,’’ NZF chief executive Andrew Pragnell told Stuff.

“For me, strategically, if you’re all in with New Zealand, there must be a South Island-based franchise.”

Pragnell said A-League chiefs ultimately want 16 clubs by 2026. Currently, there are 12, with Auckland – backed by billionaire Bournemouth Premier League club owner Bill Foley – and, potentially, Canberra, set to join in 2024.

It is going to be an impressive stadium. Hopefully the Nix can take a game there at the end of the 25/26 season. Should be close to a sell out, with the whole novelty factor of a sparkly new stadia. Good road trip. Derby III?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/360613992/inside-christchurchs-new-one-new-zealand-stadium

And yes a likely home ground for any new Sth Island A League franchise if that happens.

No way  they should take a Derby game there. They are due two at home next year better to try and sell them out. They would go close to sellout in Christchurch whoever they play given the novelty factor of it.
Phoenix need to milk it for what they can next year with 2 home Derbies a game in Christchurch and a Waitangi day game.
If the team can come to the party and those 4 games having good attendances would probably pay for a couple of seasons of running costs.
 

When are we getting a Christchurch team in to also eclipse our achievements?

LT01

When are we getting a Christchurch team in to also eclipse our achievements?

will be interesting with proposed changes to the cap, do new teams continue to get dispensation to spend more or without the holes in the cap, that haven't been available to new teams, do new teams follow the stricter salary cap? I assume they follow the stricter cap, while being able to build a team from scratch might be beneficial not have that extra cap room might see new teams not be successful quickly after joining the league as have most teams since wsw entered with extra cap space.

LT01

When are we getting a Christchurch team in to also eclipse our achievements?

After Canberra there can't be too many better options, particularly given competition in the area is currently pretty low despite the new stadium. Might be a bit tougher if NRL decide to put their 20th team there but news has remained pretty quiet on that front, mostly focused on Perth.

Wollongong probably an option, Gold Coast could be worth another go? Sunshine Coast maybe, nobody has taken a chance on them yet (also getting stadium upgrades). Tasmania's probably not worth looking at any time soon with their new AFL team coming. NQ would be tough in a summer league.

Beyond that all I can think of is adding to cities that already have clubs.

Yeah the one news report the other night was saying that a Chch NRL team was a distant prospect right now. 

Te Kaha could use a summer tenant. Unfortunately the yearly payout from the APL is so low right now that nobody in their right mind would pay millions to join the A-League. The league was so lucky to get Auckland. I think if the massive drop from >2 million to 500k happened even a year before then Foley could easily have pulled the plug. Hopefully the next TV deal results in a big bump to that payout. 

Canberra, Wollongong, Gold Coast, and Christchurch all kind of feel equally obvious to me. Would hope for Christchurch of course.

imanixsupporter

Yeah the one news report the other night was saying that a Chch NRL team was a distant prospect right now. 

Te Kaha could use a summer tenant. Unfortunately the yearly payout from the APL is so low right now that nobody in their right mind would pay millions to join the A-League. The league was so lucky to get Auckland. I think if the massive drop from >2 million to 500k happened even a year before then Foley could easily have pulled the plug. Hopefully the next TV deal results in a big bump to that payout. 

Yes I think Graham Lowe is in a bit of a dreamworld if he thinks Christchurch is getting a NRL team anytime soon. Perth for 2027 (18 teams) & then PNG for 2028 (19 teams).

The NRL want 20 teams, but will be plenty of competition for that 20th spot. Central Queensland (Rockhampton) is a league heartland wanting a team. Been talk about Gosford for years, and now rumours about another Brisbane based team (Ipswich area), as SE QLD's popn continues to grow fast.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/ipswich-next-piece-nrl-expansion-210000337.html

Re ALM expansion as successful as Auckland has been on & off field, it's taken an American billionaire (plus Mowbray & Williams) to make it happen.

You have MAC taking legal action against Football Australia, regarding failed promises about the annual disbursements paid to ALM clubs, now down to a pitiful $530K. You have rumours of Western United paying players (ALM & ALW) late, with their main owner now in financial strife.

Hopefully Christchurch United get a spot in the new OFC Professional League. Lets see how that goes, plus crowds in general at the new downtown ChCh stadium. The Nix hopefully can take a game there in about 12 months. I really hope a Sth Island A League club happens. Then football has a truly national footprint. But I doubt another American rich lister rolls into town paying the big cheques like a $20M franchise entry fee. 

More likely it's a lower level Slava Meyn plus local wealthy friends setup. A club that probably fits into the mid tier A League club grouping with the Nix. And then does NZ have enough local and overseas based football talent to support a 3rd club? I think yes, but only just, and again it's unlikely to be at the level of Auckland immediately challenging for titles in Season 1.

coochiee

imanixsupporter

Yeah the one news report the other night was saying that a Chch NRL team was a distant prospect right now. 

Te Kaha could use a summer tenant. Unfortunately the yearly payout from the APL is so low right now that nobody in their right mind would pay millions to join the A-League. The league was so lucky to get Auckland. I think if the massive drop from >2 million to 500k happened even a year before then Foley could easily have pulled the plug. Hopefully the next TV deal results in a big bump to that payout. 

Yes I think Graham Lowe is in a bit of a dreamworld if he thinks Christchurch is getting a NRL team anytime soon. Perth for 2027 (18 teams) & then PNG for 2028 (19 teams).

The NRL want 20 teams, but will be plenty of competition for that 20th spot. Central Queensland (Rockhampton) is a league heartland wanting a team. Been talk about Gosford for years, and now rumours about another Brisbane based team (Ipswich area), as SE QLD's popn continues to grow fast.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/ipswich-next-piece-nrl-expansion-210000337.html

Re ALM expansion as successful as Auckland has been on & off field, it's taken an American billionaire (plus Mowbray & Williams) to make it happen.

You have MAC taking legal action against Football Australia, regarding failed promises about the annual disbursements paid to ALM clubs, now down to a pitiful $530K. You have rumours of Western United paying players (ALM & ALW) late, with their main owner now in financial strife.

Hopefully Christchurch United get a spot in the new OFC Professional League. Lets see how that goes, plus crowds in general at the new downtown ChCh stadium. The Nix hopefully can take a game there in about 12 months. I really hope a Sth Island A League club happens. Then football has a truly national footprint. But I doubt another American rich lister rolls into town paying the big cheques like a $20M franchise entry fee. 

More likely it's a lower level Slava Meyn plus local wealthy friends setup. A club that probably fits into the mid tier A League club grouping with the Nix. And then does NZ have enough local and overseas based football talent to support a 3rd club? I think yes, but only just, and again it's unlikely to be at the level of Auckland immediately challenging for titles in Season 1.

I think the Auckland effect will see more you kiwis choose football over other codes and in 10/15 years time hopefully 3 NZ clubs will be full of kiwis with only your Dan Halls representing Australia. 

The days of kiwi clubs signing Aussie journey men and women are dwindling fast.

Tasmania AFL hopes are up in the air atm as Liberal doesn't wanna fund their stadium. So maybe there's still room for football to sneak in after all? (assuming APL lowers their BS entrance fee)

Highly doubt it, very little football infrastructure and population that is interested.. the fact only one Tassie teams has made it to round of 32 in FFA Cup speaks volumes about lack of quality/interest

Noah4thenix

Tasmania AFL hopes are up in the air atm as Liberal doesn't wanna fund their stadium. So maybe there's still room for football to sneak in after all? (assuming APL lowers their BS entrance fee)

Came across this Reddit thread by accident, and since there has been a little bit of chatter about a possible future Christchurch/Sth Island expanision side. I'd thought I'd post. It's about 3 months old.

It's for sure a tiny sample size of football fans in Aussie. But the posts overwhelmingly positive about having Aotearoa clubs in the A League, and open to there being a 3rd NZ team.

A-League without New Zealand Clubs

Preston & SM keen to replace Western United.

No comments on how they would come up with a $20M approx licence fee.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-08-21/south-melbourne-preston-lions-a-league-expansion-western-united/105677562?fbclid=IwY2xjawMU68JleHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETFUbzlWaXV3bHIyQ3d2ZnUxAR58SIN-N6L9W7HKqTkutDn-O3I1AX5-VzdqrDA3x7COAQqZk5NIFlmFYMe8Fw_aem_sMRcjL4BplNTkipVeCw-tg

Zero chance. As you said, no way could they find the $20 million sign on fee. If they ALeague let them in with no fee Foley would sue to get his $20 mill back. The AL have painted them selves into a corner regarding expansion.
As for SM and Preston. Great old clubs with wonderful histories but NO money

Lights on at the new Te Kaha stadium this week in ChCh.

man I wish that was sitting by the Wellington Railway yards instead of the tired old thing we have at the moment.

theprof

man I wish that was sitting by the Wellington Railway yards instead of the tired old thing we have at the moment.

Literally the only thing that will result in a new stadium, will be an Earthquake. The lack of foresight on that thing is mindboggling, although it makes sense on a lot of other decisions that have been made in the city over the last 75 odd years.

ballane

No way  they should take a Derby game there. They are due two at home next year better to try and sell them out. They would go close to sellout in Christchurch whoever they play given the novelty factor of it.
Phoenix need to milk it for what they can next year with 2 home Derbies a game in Christchurch and a Waitangi day game.
If the team can come to the party and those 4 games having good attendances would probably pay for a couple of seasons of running costs.
 

On current strength, a derby in Christchurch that ends in a lopsided win for Auckland would make it more difficult to sell a Phoenix game after that.   Plus it might create an unfortunate effect of locals here deciding to follow Auckland, since casual viewers like winners and ignore the losers. And neither team is from Christchurch, both are from North Island, so the neutrals would not feel they need to support the Nix.
Much more appropriate to bring a Nix game here if it is played against any other team than Auckland.  There would be no question about the loyalties, since Nix is a Kiwi club.

Mainland FC

ballane

No way  they should take a Derby game there. They are due two at home next year better to try and sell them out. They would go close to sellout in Christchurch whoever they play given the novelty factor of it.
Phoenix need to milk it for what they can next year with 2 home Derbies a game in Christchurch and a Waitangi day game.
If the team can come to the party and those 4 games having good attendances would probably pay for a couple of seasons of running costs.
 

On current strength, a derby in Christchurch that ends in a lopsided win for Auckland would make it very difficult to sell a Phoenix game after that.   Plus it might create an unfortunate effect of locals here switching to follow Auckland, since they like winners and ignore the losers. And neither team is from Christchurch, both are from North Island, so the neutrals would not feel they need to support the Nix.
Much more appropriate to bring a Nix game here if it is played against any other team than Auckland.  There would be no question about the loyalties, since Nix is a Kiwi club.

with Western United likely being kicked out the league goes down to an even number of teams so that could well remove this season 2 home derbies.

theprof

Mainland FC

ballane

No way  they should take a Derby game there. They are due two at home next year better to try and sell them out. They would go close to sellout in Christchurch whoever they play given the novelty factor of it.
Phoenix need to milk it for what they can next year with 2 home Derbies a game in Christchurch and a Waitangi day game.
If the team can come to the party and those 4 games having good attendances would probably pay for a couple of seasons of running costs.
 

On current strength, a derby in Christchurch that ends in a lopsided win for Auckland would make it very difficult to sell a Phoenix game after that.   Plus it might create an unfortunate effect of locals here switching to follow Auckland, since they like winners and ignore the losers. And neither team is from Christchurch, both are from North Island, so the neutrals would not feel they need to support the Nix.
Much more appropriate to bring a Nix game here if it is played against any other team than Auckland.  There would be no question about the loyalties, since Nix is a Kiwi club.

with Western United likely being kicked out the league goes down to an even number of teams so that could well remove this season 2 home derbies.

Doubt it cant see the league dropping to just 22 games think there will still teams we play 3 times. Would think they need to if they want to attract a decent broadcast deal.

ballane

theprof

Mainland FC

ballane

No way  they should take a Derby game there. They are due two at home next year better to try and sell them out. They would go close to sellout in Christchurch whoever they play given the novelty factor of it.
Phoenix need to milk it for what they can next year with 2 home Derbies a game in Christchurch and a Waitangi day game.
If the team can come to the party and those 4 games having good attendances would probably pay for a couple of seasons of running costs.
 

On current strength, a derby in Christchurch that ends in a lopsided win for Auckland would make it very difficult to sell a Phoenix game after that.   Plus it might create an unfortunate effect of locals here switching to follow Auckland, since they like winners and ignore the losers. And neither team is from Christchurch, both are from North Island, so the neutrals would not feel they need to support the Nix.
Much more appropriate to bring a Nix game here if it is played against any other team than Auckland.  There would be no question about the loyalties, since Nix is a Kiwi club.

with Western United likely being kicked out the league goes down to an even number of teams so that could well remove this season 2 home derbies.

Doubt it cant see the league dropping to just 22 games think there will still teams we play 3 times. Would think they need to if they want to attract a decent broadcast deal.

yuck, 

Why yuck?

As well as AFC the Nix also played the VUC thrice last season. Everyone else twice.
Can't remember the last time the ALM was a proper balanced H&A draw. Has it ever?

At least bye weeks should now depart the lounge with WU.

coochiee

Why yuck?

As well as AFC the Nix also played the VUC thrice last season. Everyone else twice.
Can't remember the last time the ALM was a proper balanced H&A draw. Has it ever?

At least bye weeks should now depart the lounge with WU.

You're right - it has never been a balanced home and away regular season in the history of the ALM. And it likely wouldn't become one until the league got to 14 teams, if it can ever get there

coochiee

Why yuck?

As well as AFC the Nix also played the VUC thrice last season. Everyone else twice.
Can't remember the last time the ALM was a proper balanced H&A draw. Has it ever?

At least bye weeks should now depart the lounge with WU.

playing some teams three times and others is way more unbalanced than having byes. some teams will play the likes of the Jets or Roar three times and get "easy" points whereas others will play the likes of AFC or City three times.

Assuming we get AFC three times and two are home derbies then that's not too bad, but we'll end up with Victory and City away twice.

Why not increase the number of games to 2 "Home" & 2 "away" games against ALL of the other teams? Makes it even and fair, extends the season longer. Fans get more games and players don't have to wait near enough to 6 months between seasons.

LG

Why not increase the number of games to 2 "Home" & 2 "away" games against ALL of the other teams? Makes it even and fair, extends the season longer. Fans get more games and players don't have to wait near enough to 6 months between seasons.

that will be 44 games. Personally I would love more football and it would be great for development of players - that many games would require access to stadiums, TV rights, and ticket pricing all to be reworked