I might be being stupid but what does some of this mean for players on contracts. does that mean their contracts are torn up so a club can fit into the new cap. Not sure i get how some clubs can do it if they have contracted player. PFA are fools if they think the League can carry on the way they are with multiple clubs losing money.
Id expect that existing contracts have to fit under whatever cap is for each year, meaning that you could be in a situation where there is little room from new signings.
PFA just representing their members. Basically they may in negotiations accept a different cap, but if the starting point in the negotiations is everybody has to take a pay cut, then they can’t concede that as a starting position.
Plus there’s austerity survival. 5k attendances and no costs. Or there’s Auckland City. 7 million squad and more in back office probably and an average of 18,000 punters.
I think we should pause, if the future of the league is being decided by MacArthur and Western.
Sakai, Costa, Mata et al bring something to the league, imo.
As Zawada did. And Uli and Hemed before him.
If we want to budget a league assuming no fans, it might be a self fulfilling prophecy.
Attendances have been dreadful this season. Just about every game is barely creating an atmosphere. There are exceptions like AFC, Victory and Adelaide but apart from that it's 3-5k crowds all around...
I have no idea where and why the fans are gone. Who knows, it's a mystery at this point. Crowds have steadily declined over the past 20 years. Covid was a death strike and no recovery yet
From stuff today. Maybe time to stop the BS about 7 million.
Director of football Terry McFlynn told Stuff last week they were spending “nowhere near twice as much” as the figure of AU$3m (NZ$3.2m) that Australian Professional Leagues wants to institute as hard salary cap from the 2026-27 season, with a lone exception for one marquee player.
“I think there are clubs that are spending double the salary cap and more, but I think we’re about fourth or fifth across the league, from what we can understand.”
martinb
PFA just representing their members. Basically they may in negotiations accept a different cap, but if the starting point in the negotiations is everybody has to take a pay cut, then they can’t concede that as a starting position.
Plus there’s austerity survival. 5k attendances and no costs. Or there’s Auckland City. 7 million squad and more in back office probably and an average of 18,000 punters.
I think we should pause, if the future of the league is being decided by MacArthur and Western.
Sakai, Costa, Mata et al bring something to the league, imo.
As Zawada did. And Uli and Hemed before him.
If we want to budget a league assuming no fans, it might be a self fulfilling prophecy.
From stuff today. Maybe time to stop the BS about 7 million.
Director of football Terry McFlynn told Stuff last week they were spending “nowhere near twice as much” as the figure of AU$3m (NZ$3.2m) that Australian Professional Leagues wants to institute as hard salary cap from the 2026-27 season, with a lone exception for one marquee player.
“I think there are clubs that are spending double the salary cap and more, but I think we’re about fourth or fifth across the league, from what we can understand.”
martinb
PFA just representing their members. Basically they may in negotiations accept a different cap, but if the starting point in the negotiations is everybody has to take a pay cut, then they can’t concede that as a starting position.
Plus there’s austerity survival. 5k attendances and no costs. Or there’s Auckland City. 7 million squad and more in back office probably and an average of 18,000 punters.
I think we should pause, if the future of the league is being decided by MacArthur and Western.
Sakai, Costa, Mata et al bring something to the league, imo.
As Zawada did. And Uli and Hemed before him.
If we want to budget a league assuming no fans, it might be a self fulfilling prophecy.
Classic deflection from McFlynn - oh no dont look at us we aren't spending more that much money, but some of the others (who actually have to operate under the cap) are!
As the A league officials would know exactly what each club spends annd needs to police it he isn’t really going to sing bullshark in an interview like that.
He also isn’t saying others are exceeding the cap,
From stuff today. Maybe time to stop the BS about 7 million.
Director of football Terry McFlynn told Stuff last week they were spending “nowhere near twice as much” as the figure of AU$3m (NZ$3.2m) that Australian Professional Leagues wants to institute as hard salary cap from the 2026-27 season, with a lone exception for one marquee player.
“I think there are clubs that are spending double the salary cap and more, but I think we’re about fourth or fifth across the league, from what we can understand.”
martinb
PFA just representing their members. Basically they may in negotiations accept a different cap, but if the starting point in the negotiations is everybody has to take a pay cut, then they can’t concede that as a starting position.
Plus there’s austerity survival. 5k attendances and no costs. Or there’s Auckland City. 7 million squad and more in back office probably and an average of 18,000 punters.
I think we should pause, if the future of the league is being decided by MacArthur and Western.
Sakai, Costa, Mata et al bring something to the league, imo.
As Zawada did. And Uli and Hemed before him.
If we want to budget a league assuming no fans, it might be a self fulfilling prophecy.
Classic deflection from McFlynn - oh no dont look at us we aren't spending more that much money, but some of the others (who actually have to operate under the cap) are!
What does 'who actually have to operate under the cap mean'? What do you think Auckland's situation vis-a-vis the salary cap is?
As the A league officials would know exactly what each club spends annd needs to police it he isn’t really going to sing bullshark in an interview like that.
He also isn’t saying others are exceeding the cap,
direct quote from him in the article.... “I think there are clubs that are spending double the salary cap and more, but I think we’re about fourth or fifth across the league, from what we can understand.”
Ok, then violate the cap. You don’t have to be a rocket scientist or even have an accounting degree to see that you can stay within the cap with the marquee and other rules.
The bottom line is Auckland is fourth/fifth in the pecking order.
And it appears the Nix could be 6th.
Where AFC are spending money it appears is travelling to ausi a day before the Nix, which based upon their crowds they can likely afford to do.
Every club spends more than the salary 'cap' on their squads
(which is to say, Terry's not 'making an accusation,' he's just trying to provide context for their spend)
context or an excuse? what's the point of a capped league if noone is spending within the cap - if everyone is bending the rules then the cap serves no purpose.
Every club spends more than the salary 'cap' on their squads
(which is to say, Terry's not 'making an accusation,' he's just trying to provide context for their spend)
context or an excuse? what's the point of a capped league if noone is spending within the cap - if everyone is bending the rules then the cap serves no purpose.
Which is precisely why APL has moved to change that, as of two weeks ago
Ok, then violate the cap. You don’t have to be a rocket scientist or even have an accounting degree to see that you can stay within the cap with the marquee and other rules.
The bottom line is Auckland is fourth/fifth in the pecking order.
And it appears the Nix could be 6th.
Where AFC are spending money it appears is travelling to ausi a day before the Nix, which based upon their crowds they can likely afford to do.
But it seems there is a clear spending divide between the top 5 clubs and the rest. That could be around $1M or more, who knows.
Yes Auckland's budget only one factor in their successful season.
Every club spends more than the salary 'cap' on their squads
(which is to say, Terry's not 'making an accusation,' he's just trying to provide context for their spend)
context or an excuse? what's the point of a capped league if noone is spending within the cap - if everyone is bending the rules then the cap serves no purpose.
Which is precisely why APL has moved to change that, as of two weeks ago
Long overdue! Even playing field for all! or no rules and let the biggest spenders do that they want.
Attendances have been dreadful this season. Just about every game is barely creating an atmosphere. There are exceptions like AFC, Victory and Adelaide but apart from that it's 3-5k crowds all around...
I have no idea where and why the fans are gone. Who knows, it's a mystery at this point. Crowds have steadily declined over the past 20 years. Covid was a death strike and no recovery yet
If I had to guess I'd say a lot of it comes down to money: between present-day economic hardship and uncertainty about the future (especially here in Wellington), I suspect a lot of people are taking a hard look at their discretionary spending and the A-league product simply isn't making the shortlist.
Of course I have no hard data to back this up, and I don't know if the clubs themselves would have a much clearer picture. One really interesting stat which I'm pretty sure they'd consider too commercially sensitive to release would be the decline in season ticket sales vs casuals - e.g. are the dedicated supporters becoming more critical for revenue as casual fans drop away, or are we seeing the reverse where a season ticket has become a luxury and more people buy (or don't buy) tickets game by game?
Or maybe I'm completely wrong and it's just that people prefer Netflix.
Attendances have been dreadful this season. Just about every game is barely creating an atmosphere. There are exceptions like AFC, Victory and Adelaide but apart from that it's 3-5k crowds all around...
I have no idea where and why the fans are gone. Who knows, it's a mystery at this point. Crowds have steadily declined over the past 20 years. Covid was a death strike and no recovery yet
If I had to guess I'd say a lot of it comes down to money: between present-day economic hardship and uncertainty about the future (especially here in Wellington), I suspect a lot of people are taking a hard look at their discretionary spending and the A-league product simply isn't making the shortlist.
Of course I have no hard data to back this up, and I don't know if the clubs themselves would have a much clearer picture. One really interesting stat which I'm pretty sure they'd consider too commercially sensitive to release would be the decline in season ticket sales vs casuals - e.g. are the dedicated supporters becoming more critical for revenue as casual fans drop away, or are we seeing the reverse where a season ticket has become a luxury and more people buy (or don't buy) tickets game by game?
Or maybe I'm completely wrong and it's just that people prefer Netflix.
I can provide a bit of data as having heard stuff like this (attendances are down) and wanted to check how true this was, particularly if this was because something was messing with the means and if this was a general issue or club issues.
So I've plotted out the median attendance of all A-League sides over the 20 seasons so far, to see how things looks:
A-League_Attendances.png525.45 KB Here's how that look, median season by season, with dots on the end for the overall median (aka the most unremarkable attendance a club has ever had). I think I need a version without Victory, as pre-Covid they loomed over everyone but fans just never really returned afterwards. It doesn't help that they have lost a club's worth of fans, nearly 7k down on their median.
The other big thing I spotted here was a trend for clubs in new cities (Nix, Fury, Gold Coast) all experience a second season dip in attendance. My best guess is this is a great excuse for away fans to make the trip, but they can't do that yearly. Clubs in established cities (Sydney & Melbourne) have all experienced growth in their second season except Western Utd who experienced Covid instead. It'll be interesting to see if this trend continues with Auckland having joined.
Screenshot 2025-04-29 111001.png38.68 KB To help with readability, here's the end of the table behind this, showing last season, this season, their all-time median and also the change as both a number and percentage.
The Wanderers were an interesting case here as this is their worst non-Covid season, but their dipped seemed random. Looking more closely I suspect they have a very fickle fanbase as all their recent attendances are in 10k, yet they started the season pretty consistently closer to 6k. The chaos of this line supports that.
On the opposite side, 4 clubs stand out as having consistent fanbases in Sydney, Adelaide, Mariners & the Nix, who have all returned to their usual median. Our numbers all season look like a random number generator however, so one bad attendance could drop up into the 6k range. Macarthur & Western are up, but their numbers are very strongly affected by Covid and pretty pathetic.
Finally, Brisbane have lost nearly half their fanbase, which based on what I've heard about their ownership seems to track. They should have the 5th best fanbase and are instead in 10th. Them and Victory make up over half of all missing fans
Thanks for crunching the numbers, lots to think about here. Two immediate questions that jump out, what happened in 2010-11 to hammer pretty much everyone except Adelaide? And why did Smurfs recover so much more strongly post-COVID than other clubs?
Looking at this season vs long-term medians you can really see which clubs have taken the hit. I'm surprised the two Melbourne clubs are among them, but maybe that's more a reflection of how strong their numbers used to be?
Nice to see a number of clubs holding firm despite the week-to-week variation, although the overall trend for the league is still a worry.
It’s very interesting and just shows that these days with the exception of a derby where ideally you have a choice of a larger stadium, that a 12.5 to 15k stadium is more than sufficient to meet everyone’s needs.
It also shows that the Nix crowds hold up really well compared to others. Even this season.
Good work. I guess the numbers are fine for us. The Derby brought 25K helping the number not getting a home play-off finals. Silver season pass prize went also up around $100 recently that brings in more cash. Do we know how many of those they really sell.
14K at the Mariners game in ChCh also a nice boost to the Nix's home crowd average.
It should be highest figure next season with 2 home derbies and possibly a game at the new ChCh stadium in about 12 mths.
Super Rugby and NPC rugby crowds have also had big falls the last 10-20 years. It ain't a uniquely football issue.
Though AFL & NRL crowds are still very strong in Aussie, and obviously the Warriors despite still not winning anything of note, have had growing crowds the last 2-3 years. Some lessons in there
Though a bit oranges and apples. NRL clubs get $20M+ a year from their governing body. A League clubs $530K. One code can market the hell out of their game, the other can't
I think Aussie and Kiwi sports fans have just become couch potatoes. Sky, Paramount, other Aussie networks and I bet YouTube especially, have killed our motivation to go to sports (along with expensive shark food and drink).
NZ domestic footie got great crowds in the 70s and 80s and even a piss poor Knights had a solid fan base (split between the Fever and Port now).
I went to the opening day of the AFL at the MCG right after the COVID restrictions fully ended and the turnout there was poor by AFL standards. I think AFC and The Warriors are exception to rule now.
Supporter world's best and worst football teams: Waikato/WaiBop, Kingz, Knights, Phoenix, The Argyle, The Whites & the All Whites
AFL get massive crowds not sure what you’re saying… last season, the average home and away crowd was 39,808 with the lowest being 9k (gws)… my club Collingwood average 59,453 last season, afl is the biggest dog in town by quite some way..Marto
I think Aussie and Kiwi sports fans have just become couch potatoes. Sky, Paramount, other Aussie networks and I bet YouTube especially, have killed our motivation to go to sports (along with expensive shark food and drink).
NZ domestic footie got great crowds in the 70s and 80s and even a piss poor Knights had a solid fan base (split between the Fever and Port now).
I went to the opening day of the AFL at the MCG right after the COVID restrictions fully ended and the turnout there was poor by AFL standards. I think AFC and The Warriors are exception to rule now.
Yeah you are way off there Marto. Definitely still an appetite in NZ (see Warriors) and Australia for regularly attending live sport.
A big part of it is yes, if you are a AFL or league fan you are week in week out watching the world's best players in your code. The A League will never have that to market, but things can still be better than they are.
My memories of living in Melbourne is attending an AFL game (especially on a Sunday) is often a real family thing. Mum, Dad & the kids. The AFL market the hell out kids memberships and the like. Shower the juniors with all sorts of free merch. And a sport that always done pretty well with it's female fans. Helps when you have a huge media rights deal to spend.
The record attendances come ahead of anticipated sell-out of Friday's ANZAC Day clashes in Sydney, Melbourne and Christchurch, and next week's Magic Round in Brisbane.
I think the league can't really afford to have teams who struggle for years on end. It's entertainment after all and who wants to turn up to see their team lose all the time? 2 or 3 seasons of that and you see what happens - Roar, Jets, Glory.
I wonder if increasing finals spots to top 8 teams would help. Keeps things interesting for longer.
The league is pretty tight overall but the bottom 4 need propping up. No team should fall apart like that and be out of finals contention weeks before the comp ends. Maybe the AL needs to revolutionise further by exploring a drafting system, more equal spending money/cap, requiring all clubs to field a certain number of home grown academy players etc
In short, it needs to be competitive from start to finish. All teams must feel like they can win it. That should help with fans supporting their clubs. I mean if that doesn't then nothing will.
It's an interesting flow-on effect of not having promotion/relegation. After a really poor season that results in relegation, at least the club is more than likely to have an excellent following season. Keeps the fans somewhat healthy!
It is quite interesting hearing new footy fans in Auckland who've been brought along by AFC grapple with this. You tell them that just last year the Nix finished 2nd and they don't believe you. You have to explain how the salary cap works in practice.
Ramming liberal dribble down your throat since 2009 This forum needs less angst and more Kate Bush threads
It's an interesting flow-on effect of not having promotion/relegation. After a really poor season that results in relegation, at least the club is more than likely to have an excellent following season. Keeps the fans somewhat healthy!
Yeah expansion to 20 teams and pro/rel with a 10 A1 & A2 divisions is the answer. Within that come the end of season you's have clubs fighting to get into playoffs, win titles/promotion or avod the drop. Basically ever club with something to play for except likely the bottom 2-3 sides in A2.
You'd probaly have the big 5 spenders (AFC, SFC, WSW, VUC & Melb City) always in the A1 division. Plus hopefully the Nix most seasons. Clubs like Roar and Jets you could see yo-yoing a bit between.
Start season with clubs from both divisions in some sort of crossover League Cup type comp with pools that goes for say 6 weeks, then 18 rounds H&A regular season A1 & A2, then playoffs
Of course all a pipe dream at the moment with some clubs struggling financially, and the mooted 14th new team Canberra still yet to happen.
But maybe the new NSD is a success and from that a few clubs with solid crowds, and sound financials can go up to the A League.
Maybe rather than 20 teams, go for 16 or 18 but still have the 2 division split. Certainly pro/rel would add some interest, especially given would be the first professional sports league of any type in Australasia with pro/rel.
Whether this could ever happen you feel depends alot on how the new NSD goes. Crowds, sponsorship etc etc
I think the league can't really afford to have teams who struggle for years on end. It's entertainment after all and who wants to turn up to see their team lose all the time? 2 or 3 seasons of that and you see what happens - Roar, Jets, Glory.
I wonder if increasing finals spots to top 8 teams would help. Keeps things interesting for longer.
The league is pretty tight overall but the bottom 4 need propping up. No team should fall apart like that and be out of finals contention weeks before the comp ends. Maybe the AL needs to revolutionise further by exploring a drafting system, more equal spending money/cap, requiring all clubs to field a certain number of home grown academy players etc
In short, it needs to be competitive from start to finish. All teams must feel like they can win it. That should help with fans supporting their clubs. I mean if that doesn't then nothing will.
Unfortunately for these clubs there is often only so much you can do, because in the end the issue for them is often always the same thing in poor ownership. As much as we may complain about this season, for us it was just a one-off. Normally we can reach finals and be competitive and this year has just not been it.
But you look at the sides that consistently don't and you have Newcastle, who didn't have a proper owner for years. Brisbane Roar's owners reportedly put little to no money into the club. Perth, I'm not sure what's up with them but they just cannot do well.
The solution is really just new owners, but you can't force that.
It's an interesting flow-on effect of not having promotion/relegation. After a really poor season that results in relegation, at least the club is more than likely to have an excellent following season. Keeps the fans somewhat healthy!
Yeah expansion to 20 teams and pro/rel with a 10 A1 & A2 divisions is the answer. Within that come the end of season you's have clubs fighting to get into playoffs, win titles/promotion or avod the drop. Basically ever club with something to play for except likely the bottom 2-3 sides in A2.
You'd probaly have the big 5 spenders (AFC, SFC, WSW, VUC & Melb City) always in the A1 division. Plus hopefully the Nix most seasons. Clubs like Roar and Jets you could see yo-yoing a bit between.
Start season with clubs from both divisions in some sort of crossover League Cup type comp with pools that goes for say 6 weeks, then 18 rounds H&A regular season A1 & A2, then playoffs
Of course all a pipe dream at the moment with some clubs struggling financially, and the mooted 14th new team Canberra still yet to happen.
But maybe the new NSD is a success and from that a few clubs with solid crowds, and sound financials can go up to the A League.
Maybe rather than 20 teams, go for 16 or 18 but still have the 2 division split. Certainly pro/rel would add some interest, especially given would be the first professional sports league of any type in Australasia with pro/rel.
Whether this could ever happen you feel depends alot on how the new NSD goes. Crowds, sponsorship etc etc
Apologise for two long post (in a row?)
I think ideally you don't want to drop the A-League below 16 (maybe 14) teams, particularly since there needs to be 26(?) league fixtures a season for AFC qualification (not that it matters for us).
Overall though, it's probably about the best away to get a pro-rel system in Australia. There's only so much you can do with the way Australia is set out (which is an absolute nightmare for trying to make a system, but I think two national(ish) tiers should in theory be the maximum.
Step One should be slowly getting the A-League up to 20 teams, while allowing the NSD to show a few sides worth coming up, possibly even providing a few sides promoted. Focus on reaching new markets with big populations or football-mad populations. At some point during this, probably also expand finals to 8 teams.
Once you hit 20 teams, instead of a 10-10 split, prepare to make a second division of 10-12 teams, including the bottom 4 from A-League getting dropped. Should feature more of the local clubs, that prove they are right for the level, so maybe clubs like South Melbourne, Adelaide City or Marconi Stallions. This could also be used for cities that didn't get A-League sides (Geelong maybe? Cairns? Darwin? It'll be a while before we reach this point so hard to say)
So the final format would be 16 teams in the A-League and another 16 in the B-League (A2/National Championship/Whatever). You might end up with some second tier clubs with little to play for, but in the A-League you shouldn't have any worries with 8 teams in the play-offs and 2-3 relegation places.
I like the idea of pro/rel to make the A-League more interesting, but one practical question about the proposed second tier: are players in those clubs on full-time professional contracts, or does that represent a huge difference that teams going up or down would have to deal with?
The NSD for now is a condensed comp of only about 2 months (Sept-early Nov), to be played once the NPL seasons are completed.
I'm guessing it will be mostly semi pro guys like the NPL leagues likely are. Presumably the bigger clubs like Sth Melbourne etc have some players that are basically full time.
Any club hoping to progress from the NSD to the A League, for now it would be invite only from the APL. That would no doubt involve a whole indepth DD process, including the ability to yes have full time players and staff.
I think in 12 months the current A League TV rights deal expires. Hopefully the next one is a lot bigger - sounds like alot of the viewing metrics are up for the league(s). It might be that the Canberra expansion franchise and any other possible bids (Sth Island?) are waiting to see what the next club disbursements are. At a paltry $530K now, it's very bad time to setup a club.
Yeah, any talk of this is looking far into the future, there's a lot of work to be done before the A-League has a stable first division, let alone worrying about trying to add complications like pro-rel. More thinking a long term plan (I mean it's taken 20 years to get from 8 teams to 13).
I think Wollongong Wolves are probably the only NSD club I'd actually want added to the A-League in the future anyway. The others could work as second tier additions (how much you would want them varies), which should allow them up, but not direct additions.
It is quite interesting hearing new footy fans in Auckland who've been brought along by AFC grapple with this. You tell them that just last year the Nix finished 2nd and they don't believe you. You have to explain how the salary cap works in practice.
You can also tell them that AFC got the same amount of points as Wellington did last season (though teams played one more game last season).
It is quite interesting hearing new footy fans in Auckland who've been brought along by AFC grapple with this. You tell them that just last year the Nix finished 2nd and they don't believe you. You have to explain how the salary cap works in practice.
You can also tell them that AFC got the same amount of points as Wellington did last season (though teams played one more game last season).
Nix top 6 for average crowds, and a fair jump ahead of the Jets (7th). Two derbies & hopefully a game at ChCh's new CBD stadium should help again next season. A factor in Welnix giving Chiefy the spending budget he wants.
Fair play to Auckland as a new franchise have been a hugely successful addition to the ALM. Welcome change re new entrants. APL will be overjoyed. Should help re negotiations for the next media rights deal.
That's a wrap on the regular season for the 2024-25 A-League Men season. Biggest improver is Newcastle, biggest drop-off is Melbourne City. With finals coming up, we'll crack 1.5m fans for the season, the first time since 2018-19. pic.twitter.com/EuKwt2Qk5T
Overall, positive season. Crowds are overall on the up. Auckland has obviously added a lot, but a number of clubs saw a rise, notably Newcastle, Macarthur, Western Utd and Perth. Concerning is Melb City and Brisbane.
I've come across a few photos of the Premier's Plate on socials today (think AFC had it as a photo op for fans at their reserves match over the weekend) and I've noticed on the back they have engraved Central Coast Mariners for both the 22/23 season and the 23/24 season - but Melbourne City were the 22/23 Premiers.
Seems like a bit of an expensive mistake by the APL!
Nix top 6 for average crowds, and a fair jump ahead of the Jets (7th). Two derbies & hopefully a game at ChCh's new CBD stadium should help again next season. A factor in Welnix giving Chiefy the spending budget he wants.
Fair play to Auckland as a new franchise have been a hugely successful addition to the ALM. Welcome change re new entrants. APL will be overjoyed. Should help re negotiations for the next media rights deal.
That's a wrap on the regular season for the 2024-25 A-League Men season. Biggest improver is Newcastle, biggest drop-off is Melbourne City. With finals coming up, we'll crack 1.5m fans for the season, the first time since 2018-19. pic.twitter.com/EuKwt2Qk5T
Overall, positive season. Crowds are overall on the up. Auckland has obviously added a lot, but a number of clubs saw a rise, notably Newcastle, Macarthur, Western Utd and Perth. Concerning is Melb City and Brisbane.
I'll post some more data in the coming days.
I think crowds are up only due to Auckland surely. They've pretty much added crowds for 3 clubs per game. Also the NZ derby has helped too.
