Melbourne City FC - Just another Pissant Town?

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james dean
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Fitzy wrote:
Ryan's Rovers wrote:
Fitzy wrote:
Ryan's Rovers wrote:
Nommag wrote:

Forgive my ignorance but I don't really understand the two teams in Melbourne from a Geographical stand point. I understand sydney has two teams one is the central city or 'east' city and one is the west. A fan can simply associate with the most local club. Heart and Victory seem to play in pretty much the same region and it seems like fans would just pick the club that was doing the best since they don't have a geographic preference (that I'm aware of). Can anyone offer some info on this, wiki doesn't clear it up. 

There really isn't a geographical division in Melbourne, that is why Heart has always had an identity crisis. Melbourne needed a 2nd team but there is no easy way to divide the city. The big challenge for the new owners, is how to create an identity for the club.

Just to dissect this a bit RR, was there ever a clear reason why Melbourne 'needed' a 2nd team, given the geographical/identity issues which have been mentioned? I've never quite understood why there was a strong desire by the FFA for the Heart to exist (I'm aware I'm making some assumptions here, looking to be educated). 

Melbourne is 4 million people. Way too big a market to not have a 2nd team (long term there should be 3 tbh). The original report that set up the A-League recommended 2 teams in Melbourne and Sydney to start with but the FFA went against that with exclusive 1 city 1 team deals.

So purely a population issue? That's what I guessed and it obviously makes sense on that level, but is it enough to make the team sustainable? I'm not sure if that's enough to connect people to the club long term.

2 is a bit of a difficult number in a way. It's almost as though if it were one team (i.e. just 'Melbourne') that's fine as they're an immediately identifiable group, and if there are several (like AFL in Melbourne or League in Sydney) that's fine too, as each club is from an easily identifiable community, but by having two clubs you lose out on the identity of both the city-wide option and the more locally-based 'community' option. It's a tricky one to solve.



Fact is the derby games attract crowds and rate really well on TV.


You need a hook to make people feel part of the club and local geography is part of an identity.  It's why I've always been against taking Phoenix games round the country - the whole hook of supporting the team was its "Wellington-ness", you take away that and you lose something.  This isn't a team for people in Auckland

January 23, 2014 23:43 · Edited January 23, 2014 23:43
Fitzy
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Yes the derby games attract crowds, but will that last? As has been mentioned the Heart's man attraction has been that they're not the Victory. That is enough to evoke a fair bit of passion in some people, but to me it doesn't feel sustainable, and they'll need more than that if it's to last long-term. Also, even well-attended derbies won't be enough if the Heart don't have any support for the other 24 games of the season.

January 24, 2014 00:01
james dean
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Fitzy wrote:

Yes the derby games attract crowds, but will that last? As has been mentioned the Heart's man attraction has been that they're not the Victory. That is enough to evoke a fair bit of passion in some people, but to me it doesn't feel sustainable, and they'll need more than that if it's to last long-term. Also, even well-attended derbies won't be enough if the Heart don't have any support for the other 24 games of the season.


They were clearly struggling in their current form, I think that's widely accepted.  Whole new ball game now.  Personally I think the Heart brand is a dud and I'd be looking to re-launch the thing but not with overt links to City (name, colours etc) because what happens if/when they pull out or strategy changes?
January 24, 2014 00:05
Nommag
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james dean wrote:


Fact is the derby games attract crowds and rate really well on TV.


You need a hook to make people feel part of the club and local geography is part of an identity.  It's why I've always been against taking Phoenix games round the country - the whole hook of supporting the team was its "Wellington-ness", you take away that and you lose something.  This isn't a team for people in Auckland


This isn't very fair on fans, like myself, who follow the nix from outside of Wellington. Not that I'm saying the Nix should travel around the country, more that we identify with Wellington because they are the closest football team to us, the only one we can realistically support and the one that usually has the most Kiwi players. But I'd like to think if we got another team it was in a clearly different region, unlike melbourne, so we could choose who to support based on geography. 
January 24, 2014 07:06
JonoNewton
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On the geography front, I always thought using the Yarra as the split would've made sense, it runs right past AAMI park, so makes the use of the stadium for both teams make sense as well.

Heart needed to put a training facility in on the south side of the river. Of course setting up that identity for the team now is just too hard. It needed to be called South Melbourne Heart in the beginning or South Melbourne FC, now probably just too difficult.

January 24, 2014 07:08 · Edited January 24, 2014 07:09
el grapadura
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There is a South Melbourne FC playing in the VPL (it's the Greek club), so something like that would have opened multiple cans of worms.

January 24, 2014 07:26
JonoNewton
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el grapadura wrote:

There is a South Melbourne FC playing in the VPL (it's the Greek club), so something like that would have opened multiple cans of worms.

LOL didn't know that (But that could've been got around with a slight name change South Melbourne City or United etc), There is also a Melbourne City FC who claim they will block any attempt to buy their name and trademark it (I feel they are just calling for money :P)
January 24, 2014 07:28
el grapadura
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JonoNewton wrote:
el grapadura wrote:

There is a South Melbourne FC playing in the VPL (it's the Greek club), so something like that would have opened multiple cans of worms.

LOL didn't know that (But that could've been got around with a slight name change South Melbourne City or United etc)


It's not just the name, there's a bit of history too - South Melbourne is one of the most successful Australian clubs pre-A League, and they tried to become the second A-league team in Melbourne around the time we were coming into the league, but the FFA steered away from them and went with the Heart.
FFA  (well, it's equivalent back then) had also tried to remove the 'ethnic' undertone to the club in the 1990s in the NSL times, so there's quite a bit of history there.
January 24, 2014 07:37
Surge
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One of the original premise-s off the a-league (and justifications for the one town-one team thing) was to erode the historic (ethnic) club fan bases and all the "issues" associated with that.

It seems those issues are less prevalent these days?...

 

(clear sarcasm filter as required)

January 24, 2014 07:38
JonoNewton
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el grapadura wrote:
JonoNewton wrote:
el grapadura wrote:

There is a South Melbourne FC playing in the VPL (it's the Greek club), so something like that would have opened multiple cans of worms.

LOL didn't know that (But that could've been got around with a slight name change South Melbourne City or United etc)


It's not just the name, there's a bit of history too - South Melbourne is one of the most successful Australian clubs pre-A League, and they tried to become the second A-league team in Melbourne around the time we were coming into the league, but the FFA steered away from them and went with the Heart.

FFA  (well, it's equivalent back then) had also tried to remove the 'ethnic' undertone to the club in the 1990s in the NSL times, so there's quite a bit of history there.

Right that makes sense, yet surely that (ethnic) is part of the WSW crowd? ;-)
Understand why they can't use South Melbourne, but would've made sense to base the team in an area like that though.
January 24, 2014 08:07
Fitzy
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The context may be too different for a useful comparison, but how do the Melbourne stars and Melbourne renegades go support-wise in the big bash cricket? Does anyone know how they were established in terms of geography, club ties etc.? Are there parallels, or is the big bash just too much of a Mickey mouse made-for-tv competition to provide a useful analogy?

January 24, 2014 09:40
Surge
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Fitzy wrote:

The context may be too different for a useful comparison, but how do the Melbourne stars and Melbourne renegades go support-wise in the big bash cricket? Does anyone know how they were established in terms of geography, club ties etc.? Are there parallels, or is the big bash just too much of a Mickey mouse made-for-tv competition to provide a useful analogy?

That.
January 24, 2014 10:12
Mainland FC
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el grapadura wrote:
JonoNewton wrote:
el grapadura wrote:

There is a South Melbourne FC playing in the VPL (it's the Greek club), so something like that would have opened multiple cans of worms.

LOL didn't know that (But that could've been got around with a slight name change South Melbourne City or United etc)


It's not just the name, there's a bit of history too - South Melbourne is one of the most successful Australian clubs pre-A League, and they tried to become the second A-league team in Melbourne around the time we were coming into the league, but the FFA steered away from them and went with the Heart.

FFA  (well, it's equivalent back then) had also tried to remove the 'ethnic' undertone to the club in the 1990s in the NSL times, so there's quite a bit of history there.



South Melbourne (Hellas) has a huge following and was always a very successful identity in the pre-HAL era.  Did you know it was officially named as the Oceania Club of the Century? Of more interest, it has the distiction of having been coached in its time by the great Ferenc Puskas (a long time ago) and Vaughan Coveny (more recently, can't be bothered looking it up).

There is no way that the name "South Melbourne" can be even remotely considered by any other club.
January 24, 2014 12:07
rjmiller
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Don't think its been mentioned here but "Melbourne City Football Club" has been lodged with the Australian trademark office.

January 24, 2014 12:28
InsulinMachine
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rjmiller wrote:

Don't think its been mentioned here but "Melbourne City Football Club" has been lodged with the Australian trademark office.

That for a start, sounds a lot better already as opposed to "Heart."

The rebranding of this club is the right step in the right direction.

Heard they'll also want to play in SkyBlue, but I'm not sure about that as Sydney uses those colours already but whatever...


It's an exciting bit of news which will hopefully carry the A-League even further!

Now we only need another 2 teams asap and this league will become even better

January 26, 2014 13:43
kwlap
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Does anyone else think that this might not actually change the team/comp much?. Because they have been purchased by the company that also owns manc, not by manc?

January 28, 2014 20:28
2ndBest
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InsulinMachine wrote:
rjmiller wrote:

Don't think its been mentioned here but "Melbourne City Football Club" has been lodged with the Australian trademark office.

That for a start, sounds a lot better already as opposed to "Heart."

The rebranding of this club is the right step in the right direction.

Heard they'll also want to play in SkyBlue, but I'm not sure about that as Sydney uses those colours already but whatever...


It's an exciting bit of news which will hopefully carry the A-League even further!

Now we only need another 2 teams asap and this league will become even better

It's inevitable that two teams have the same colour. Plenty of examples already in A-league.
January 28, 2014 20:53
RR
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kwlap wrote:

Does anyone else think that this might not actually change the team/comp much?. Because they have been purchased by the company that also owns manc, not by manc?

I don't expect massive changes on the field, there is only so much you can change in that department short term. What the new owners will bring is off the park, adding infrastructure to the club via an academy and training base.
January 28, 2014 22:48
theprof
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I have been thinnking about how this may affect the team on game day and this thought crossed my mind - is there anything to stop the owners of manc and heart moving say a player of quality needing game time to the heart as a loan? manc pay his wages ergo no effect on a-league cap, could we see more prem league squad players hitting the a-league? And if this does happen, is it worth the nix forming some kind of link with one of the top teams in the EPL???

January 29, 2014 09:00
JonoNewton
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theprof wrote:

I have been thinnking about how this may affect the team on game day and this thought crossed my mind - is there anything to stop the owners of manc and heart moving say a player of quality needing game time to the heart as a loan? manc pay his wages ergo no effect on a-league cap, could we see more prem league squad players hitting the a-league? And if this does happen, is it worth the nix forming some kind of link with one of the top teams in the EPL???

I think we discussed this earlier in regards to Brisbane and their owners. If a player is loaned, I believe under the CBA the cap hit would be the wages the club (A-League) are paying, but if no fee, then it would most likely be a cap hit of the league minimum salary 150k? (Ryan's Rovers can probably confirm this)
Would not be unusual for owners to share players, see Udinese & Watford.
January 29, 2014 09:11
theprof
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ok, so if the players wages comes under the cap - put him as a marquee and then he is effectively a free player for the heart right? depending on quality it coukld well be a smart way for the nix to get a quality "name" player at no additional cost to the club.

January 29, 2014 09:19
RR
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theprof wrote:

ok, so if the players wages comes under the cap - put him as a marquee and then he is effectively a free player for the heart right? depending on quality it coukld well be a smart way for the nix to get a quality "name" player at no additional cost to the club.

If we could find a club willing to loan a top quality player on a dirt cheap fee/wage, we should be able to use the marquee spot for them. Its much easier said than done tho.

With regards to loans under the previous CBA (haven't found copy of the new one yet), whatever you pay towards them counts in the cap. If you pay less than minimum wage, you get assessed as the minimum wage.

With regards to Berisha, there was talk about another club signing him and loaning him back at a cheaper rate. The FFA said they wouldn't let that happen, so they must be able to veto moves they feel are a cap rort. Using a marquee spot, even if you are paying less I think would be fine with the FFA.
January 29, 2014 11:54
Smoodiver
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InsulinMachine wrote:
rjmiller wrote:

Don't think its been mentioned here but "Melbourne City Football Club" has been lodged with the Australian trademark office.

That for a start, sounds a lot better already as opposed to "Heart."

The rebranding of this club is the right step in the right direction.

Heard they'll also want to play in SkyBlue, but I'm not sure about that as Sydney uses those colours already but whatever...


It's an exciting bit of news which will hopefully carry the A-League even further!

Now we only need another 2 teams asap and this league will become even better

I hope all of this is true. Who gives a shit about Sydney, would be cool if they moved to the sky blue kit i reckon.

On a similar note does anyone remember when the Knights (or Kingz - but pretty sure Knights), were linked with Chelsea? They even had the Chelsea crest on the sleeve of the kit
January 29, 2014 13:07
patrick478
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It was Kingz.


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=anBviP9b9olQ&refer=australia


January 29, 2014 18:21
Jerzy Merino
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AJ13 wrote:
InsulinMachine wrote:
rjmiller wrote:

Don't think its been mentioned here but "Melbourne City Football Club" has been lodged with the Australian trademark office.

That for a start, sounds a lot better already as opposed to "Heart."

The rebranding of this club is the right step in the right direction.

Heard they'll also want to play in SkyBlue, but I'm not sure about that as Sydney uses those colours already but whatever...


It's an exciting bit of news which will hopefully carry the A-League even further!

Now we only need another 2 teams asap and this league will become even better

I hope all of this is true. Who gives a shit about Sydney, would be cool if they moved to the sky blue kit i reckon.


On a similar note does anyone remember when the Knights (or Kingz - but pretty sure Knights), were linked with Chelsea? They even had the Chelsea crest on the sleeve of the kit

Fukn lot of good it did them!

February 05, 2014 14:42
Surge
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When I was a kid playing at Naenae (many decades ago) they told us we had a "link" with #MoyesIn United... what that actually mean't was - same strip and a photo of their squad in our wee book every year... it wasn't hard to be a Gooner!!! lol

February 05, 2014 15:44
Oi Oi Edgecumbe
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No Kwl. Kwl

February 14, 2014 15:50
Dino11
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Wasn't there a link with Charlton by either the Knights or the Kingz that was REALLY beneficial to both parties..

February 14, 2014 16:05
Oi Oi Edgecumbe
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Well done Melbourne Heart, you outplayed us

February 16, 2014 23:00
RR
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Bossi Insider
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Engelaar is a beast. Not sure he would be the new owners idea of a marquee but I'm sure they will try and keep him inside the salary cap next season.

February 17, 2014 10:46
JonoNewton
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Ryan's Rovers wrote:

Engelaar is a beast. Not sure he would be the new owners idea of a marquee but I'm sure they will try and keep him inside the salary cap next season.

Before he returned from inury Heart was 0-4-10, since he returned Results are W3-1, D2-2, W2-1, W2-1, W5-0
February 17, 2014 12:04
Mainland FC
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Clearly Heart were missing Harry Kewell, as the score showed.

February 18, 2014 16:45
JonoNewton
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Xavi Hernandez to the Heart? Rumours appear to be around that he will play for the Heart, and then New York City FC. In a loan deal, not sure if this means Man City will buy him and loan him to Melbourne, or if he will just be loaned direct. 

Of course the only article I can find right now is Budgies. but I have heard rumours elsewhere as well.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/sport/budgie-on-the-ball/9749929/Rumours-about-Melbourne-Heart

If this is true it will be massive for the A-League, another global star into Australia can only help feed the league.


Edit: Of course there was a mid-Jan article with him denying a move to New York, but that's pretty standard before a ddeal is done.

http://espnfc.com/news/story/_/id/1682900/barcelona-midfielder-xavi-hernandez-rules-new-york-link?cc=3436


February 22, 2014 10:12 · Edited February 22, 2014 10:14
2ndBest
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Appiah without the pace
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Budgie sources gave also said:
- They are being renamed Melbourne City (very old news)
- They are going to wear blue (Very old news)
- Arsenal and West Ham are coming to NZ (they aren't)


His sources a weaker than a butter chicken from Tulsi.

February 22, 2014 13:54
JonoNewton
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2ndBest wrote:

Budgie sources gave also said:
- They are being renamed Melbourne City (very old news)
- They are going to wear blue (Very old news)
- Arsenal and West Ham are coming to NZ (they aren't)


His sources a weaker than a butter chicken from Tulsi.


Oh I agree :) But more solid than some rumours I see in some threads.
Think we can almost guarantee a big name at some point.
February 23, 2014 08:12
Jerzy Merino
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Mainland FC wrote:

Clearly Heart were missing Harry Kewell, as the score showed.

Clearly missing Aloisi too.

February 24, 2014 10:10
RR
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JvS signs a 3 year extension http://www.footballaustralia.com.au/melbourneheart/news-display/John-vant-Schip-Reappointed-Head-Coach/88512

March 19, 2014 16:05
sthn.jeff
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Wonder how he found these qualities from the time they originally sacked him until now 


"Melbourne Heart FC Chief Executive Officer Scott Munn said van’t Schip had demonstrated his suitability for the role by his proven leadership skills and coaching approach which have resurrected the team’s fortunes during the past 11 rounds."

March 19, 2014 16:08
RR
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He wasn't sacked, his contract was up and he got the Guadalajara job.

March 19, 2014 16:15 · Edited March 19, 2014 16:16
sthn.jeff
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Ahhh ok, my mistake, I thought they moved him aside for the (wrong) Aloisi

March 19, 2014 16:24
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