Ufuk Talay - Ufuked off to Sydney FC

Signing players doesn't count as "doing" something?

He also gave his 'blessing' on the players who have been released so far. It certainly helps that he was appointed so early in the off-season though.

Has there ever been an off-season where we've had so many new names come in so early??

Yep this is a shocking state of affairs he is going to seriously screw the forum if he has a squad signed to early.

Signed 3 off contract A League journeymen, not exactly difficult business to get done

Please describe how any of the HAL players we have signed are journeymen?

Prior to the 'Nix, the cumulative number of HAL clubs those 3 have played for is 3. The number of pro clubs is 4.

Sorry, which journeyman have we signed? Because I see... literally 0.

Ex-Australian international CB, coming off recent injury issues. 1 A-League club (over 2 stints, split by 4 years in the K-League).

Young, unproven winger. 1 A-League club.

Young, unproven fullback. 1 A-League club.

The only one you can argue is a journeyman is Marinovic and he's still relatively young for a goalkeeper.

All signings have massive growth potential, including De Vere if he can stay fit.

I think JD may be using "journeymen" not in the sense of "have played for many clubs", but in the sense of "JD doesn't think they're that great"

Double Post

We had 7 on contract, all new signings are decent players to fill a squad, except 1st choice Marinovic who. I’m not yet concerned, we will get a crack expensive star striker and I something of the Baumjohann quality midfielder is on the shopping list.

I'm using it in the sense of what it means!  "A worker or sportsman who is reliable but not outstanding".  

I personally do find it a bit depressing that the first three players we've signed are, in an A League sense, second rate players and all Australians.  We've just had our best ever U 20s team lighting it up and even the guys we have on our books haven't been given contracts.  At times last year we had 5 young kiwis on the pitch, yet we keep signing these second rate Aussies to fill out our squad.

https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/journeyman

Yes but our squad is so skinny. We do need some reliable journeymen (if that's what you want to call them).

There's no guarantee's that the U20 players are going to come to play at the phoenix. The Ole boys boys seem to prefer 4th tier semi professional Scandanavian clubs. And last year alot of NZ players didn't even want to trial.

At least Talay is getting in early while he can and  picking some players with A league experience that he see's value in. Last year by the time Rudan was appointed the "Journeyman" pickings were pretty dire as the best had already signed elsewhere.

Other NZ and Handy Prem players are most likely not going to be signed by other A league clubs so Talay has longer to look at that group.  

There's competition for Australian players. There is less competition for NZ players, so less urgency to sign them (and the ones that have signed overseas would have been unlikely to come here anyway). Waine and Stensness don't need to be given contracts instantly, they'll be here - what's the rush?

Not sure how DeVere is "second rate" or how we can pass any judgement on Scott. Sotirio I'll give you though. There's a lot more squad to fill. Expect to see plenty of Kiwis. I see zero reason to be negative about our recruitment so far.

JD we actually haven't lost any of those young kiwis you're talking about. We still have Rufer, Singh, Cacace, Elliot, and Uffie has said Waine and Stensness will be involved again this season. It's also been said by Rollo that we are looking at a further 5 young kiwi players - we'll have enough. We do need experienced guys though, so that's where DeVere and Sotirio are fine pick ups

Kind of tough when the best kiwis won't sign for us because of Declan, though..

We've got two of the best already signed up, anyway.

Just because they are Kiwis dosnt mean they want to sign for us.Sorry JD that is way out on your part seem to recall Rudan had the same issue yet for some reason you expect us just to offer them a contract and they will accept.

"Journeyman (sports) In American English, a journeyman or journeywoman is an athlete who is technically competent but unable to excel. The term is used elsewhere (such as in British and Australian contexts) to refer to a professional sportsman who plays for a large number of different clubs during their career."

I guess it can be used either way. If you search journeyman and football, all the articles are about players that have had a long string of clubs.

We're in NZ so it means what it means in a NZ context which is someone who's had a lot of clubs.

I think the clue is in the word “journey”

I'm in NZ and it means average to me.

Back to the original point, I guess for me it's not exactly exciting that 2/4 of our first announced players feel more like squad fillers rather than starters and both are Australians.  

I've said for a long time, that if we are signing foreigners or Aussies they should be starters, and the squaddies should be young kiwis.  

But that seems less likely the longer we keep getting Australian coaches!  

Actually, that's false etymology.

"The term was originally used in the medieval trade guilds. Journeymen were paid each day. The word "journey" is derived from journée, meaning "day" in French. Each individual guild generally recognised three ranks of workers: apprentices, journeymen, and masters. A journeyman, as a qualified tradesman could become a master and run their own business, but most continued working as employees."

Thanks everyone for the lovely English lesson, can we get back on topic please.

You're not wrong, but there are only so many kiwis up to it, and we need some squad fillers with A-League experience considering our squad is threadbare.

I'll only start to worry if the last player we sign is Mitch Nichols.

There is nothing wrong with looking at young Aussie players as squaddies.  From the point of view of visa requirements they are just like Kiwis, and may consider a season with us as a stepping stone in their development stage.  Tratt was exactly that, and while it is a shame it did not work out there might be others, long before we consider Mitch Nicholls.

Problem is, if your requirement to be a squad player is that you have A League experience, that rules out a lot of kiwis.  I think last year showed that our young academy guys can cut it in the league, so for me we should be looking at them to fill those spots.  I know zero about the young LB we have signed, but that's exactly the type of signing where all things being equal I would prefer to see a kiwi

Again are you sure they havnt been trying to sign Kiwis but like last season some keep turning them down.Much happier there are some early signings rather than yet another mad scramble at the last minute.

Maybe the club might take your advice on just how they get these Kiwi players to sign you seem pretty sure they want to.

agree with you. Without some kind of club policy or mandate this will continue.

So which Kiwi LB would you rather we have signed that is capable of being an A-League squaddie? Unless you can name a name there's no point griping about it.

I'd like us to sign NZers where possible, I just don't see who we'd rather have. It has to be a case by case basis and if NZers are turning us down, as they did last year, what is the alternative? Can't have a full team of academy players - we need A-League experience if we're going to compete for 30+ games - have you seen the state of our squad?. Yeah that cuts out a lot of young NZers but that's the nature of pro football. Good thing is, we still have fudge tons of space to sign Kiwis. 

Having said that, I'd rather we sign the best players available to fill the squad, at the right price, regardless of nationality. NZ is nice, but its secondary to quality.

I'll be first in line to eat my words if the remainder of the squad is imports and Aussies but I just don't see it happening.

Maybe the players who played for Team Wellington and others from Auckland and Eastern Suburbs should be given a cursory look. Some of Team Wellington players were amazing at The Club World Cup. I know Gulley had been looked at by previous coach and has been discarded. Maybe a couple of the others would be worth a look. Schrijvers was outstanding in that game and I believe ended up with Player of the Year for the Team Wellington. (Still young I think and played LB, CB). Watched him last weekend playing midfield, a cut above everyone else.  Clapham (Mid)  (injured at the moment) but could be worth a look.Jack Henry Sinclair(RB and Wing) (also a young one)   Sometimes a look in your own backyard may turn up a gem. But if overseas players are better so be it.

I was referring to LBs specifically, since that's a position we've signed a young Aussie for. If JD can't name which Kiwi he'd like to be signed instead then his opinion is just baseless whining. Absolutely agree that Kiwis who played significant roles for ACFC, TW and ESAFC should be looked at in depth - especially guys like Schrijvers, JHS, Awad, Payne, Howieson and TAHW etc.

suggesting that any of the ones you've listed wanted to come trial with the Nix, I'm pretty sure they would have been asked to trial last season.

TAHW and JHS did trial, Howieson and Payne (by all accounts) said no. Shrijvers has grown massively as a player in the last 12 months so may not have been on the radar last off season.

Awad wasn't playing national league the previous summer so probably would not have been considered before you consider the other "issues".

JHS trialled last season. Unfortunately, they trialled him as a forward rather than a (very good) wing-back that he's been for the last couple years. In hindsight, he probably should've been signed instead of Gulley if the real intention of that signing was to replace Fenton.

Schrijvers I don't think was invited to trial last season, but he had a great season for the TeeDubs, think we would be an excellent pick up to add to the CB depth.

Sounds like we sent a group email last year asking if anyone was interested in trialing, which is a bit of a slap in the face to those who may have been interested (primarily Payne for that scenario I think). I see no reason why we shouldn't approach them again with a new coach. Some of those names are good enough to give a contract to without asking for them to trial, imo anyway, but who knows what Uffie's MO will be for recruiting.

What was the story behind Howieson leaving TW for ACFC again? Did he not want to live here, or a better offer?

Playing Devil's advocate (a little) here but the three ex Handy prem players to make a mark in the A-League were Siggy, Riera and Krishna. All three of those players were dominantly the best players in the NZFC at the time they signed for the Phoenix.  All of them took some time to get fit enough and to make a mark on the A-League. There is no single player dominating that league currently.

Just signing Handy prem players because they go okay at that level would be a massive risk. The dominantly best players at that level didn't walk into being good A-League players now people keep throwing out 20 or more names across the league that they claim would be A-League starters?

I think people are forgetting the gap between the two competitions.

Not sure anyone is claiming they'd be starters, but they're the most likely options if we want to prioritise NZ players as squaddies.

Wow, thanks for that.  You really do learn something new every day!

Aaron Spain was good for Canterbury at LWB last year in the two appearances I saw. Plying his trade in Oz state league now. 

Also I wholeheartedly go with the policy aspect, and would go further by having a Director of Football role that essentially led this for the club and allowed the coach to concentrate on the training pitch and motivating the players.

I agree that for all of the guys that come from the ASBP there is a period of time required to get up to speed. But we have shown last year particularly that Kiwi players who have come through our system are good enpugh.

It's easier for coaches to take players with A League experience, and that's why we sign guys like Lowry,Golec or Nicholls. Without an overall policy we will always end up with these average Australians. They are solid, but have very little upside whereas a younger player may need more investment, but has more potential. Problem is that requires longer term thinking which isn't evidenced when we basically have had four new teams in four years under four different coaches. I guess it's never dull!