Not on topic exactly, but should suggest that Mr Foley won’t have problems with getting a stadium downtown- they’ll be at least a couple of things in favour of it…
While Eden Park is certainly a near-ideal location, I must say that I found Mt Smart much easier to get around / get eats, etc. It seemed "friendlier", somehow - and that's not just its size, it was a better experience than NHS as well. And I did actually manage to get there by bike (the Littlest Hooligan was playing on the field at half time so we got a carpark spot)
"In a further attempt to make a clean break from the ill-fated Kingz, the Knights relocated to North Harbour Stadium on Auckland’s North Shore. The decision to
move was also recognition by management of the competitive forces facing the Knights and a desire to move to a potentially more advantageous geographical location. The North Shore is attractive to the Knights in terms of demographics and socio-economic status while also being an area where soccer has a strong following. Thus management believed that playing the Knights’ home games at North Harbour Stadium would see the club better able to attract and retain spectators. Furthermore, the North Shore is not a location for one of the other high-profile professional sports teams connected with Auckland. The Knights’ previous stadium in Auckland’s south-west [sic - authors' geography is lacking] was the home ground for the New Zealand Warriors (New Zealand’s entry in the Australian professional rugby league competition). Continuing to play matches heavily associated with a rival football code would do little to help the club establish a ‘home’ for football."
Interesting that Foley is not influenced by any of these factors. He's not upset at the idea of groundsharing with the Wahs, nor is he influenced by what are euphemistically called "demographics" (i.e. that the Shore is richer and less Polynesian).
will be an infteresting test to see who knows best. the south of auckland probably has a more loyal fanbase - particularly for the wahs, if you can tap into that community then you're pretty much set.
I know you biked, but what are your thoughts about access vs Eden Park? I no longer live up there but I’m struggling to figure out how easy it will be, as an out of town visitor, to attend Auckland games there.Doloras
While Eden Park is certainly a near-ideal location, I must say that I found Mt Smart much easier to get around / get eats, etc. It seemed "friendlier", somehow - and that's not just its size, it was a better experience than NHS as well. And I did actually manage to get there by bike (the Littlest Hooligan was playing on the field at half time so we got a carpark spot)
I know you biked, but what are your thoughts about access vs Eden Park? I no longer live up there but I’m struggling to figure out how easy it will be, as an out of town visitor, to attend Auckland games there.Doloras
While Eden Park is certainly a near-ideal location, I must say that I found Mt Smart much easier to get around / get eats, etc. It seemed "friendlier", somehow - and that's not just its size, it was a better experience than NHS as well. And I did actually manage to get there by bike (the Littlest Hooligan was playing on the field at half time so we got a carpark spot)
Eden Park is simple as to access from train (Kingsland station) or bus (either 22 buses on New North Road or 25 buses on Sandringham Road; if you don't mind a walk there are 24 and Outer Link buses on Dominion Road). Bike-wise you can park at the train station, or for big events Bike Auckland put on a valet service. During the 2011 RWC lots of people actually walked in from the city. I can't say anything about parking for cars, sorry.
Not on topic exactly, but should suggest that Mr Foley won’t have problems with getting a stadium downtown- they’ll be at least a couple of things in favour of it…
Utopia great show. The main premise is a group NSW public servants haplessly constructing a tunnel project in NSW. Working Dog productions, with a roll call of current Aussie comedians. And yeah a big new expensive AFL stadium in Hobart, has become your classic community split between local AFL fans (plus hospo businesses) and those who want Govt $$$ spent on other stuff.
Kitty Flanagan in Utopia is hilarious. She's got her own show 'Fisk' about a suburban Melbourne lawyer. Been picked up overseas, and is on Netflix. She's often on Aussie's version of 'Have You Been Paying Attention' which gets a few Kiwis on. Mel Bracewell, Ursula Carson and my fav Guy Montogomery. Lots of droll Aus/Kiwi banter. Ed Kavalee and Sam Pang both big football fans (had their own A League show once on Foxtel) are the 2 main regular guys. It's a lot less PC than the Kiwi version - Pang of half Asian heritage cops alot - which is an interesting observation of the 2 countries. Maybe because they are so funny & self effacing it doesn't seem to cross a line. Pang and host Tom Gleisner openly supported the Voice to Parliament. Sorry off topic.
I know you biked, but what are your thoughts about access vs Eden Park? I no longer live up there but I’m struggling to figure out how easy it will be, as an out of town visitor, to attend Auckland games there.Doloras
While Eden Park is certainly a near-ideal location, I must say that I found Mt Smart much easier to get around / get eats, etc. It seemed "friendlier", somehow - and that's not just its size, it was a better experience than NHS as well. And I did actually manage to get there by bike (the Littlest Hooligan was playing on the field at half time so we got a carpark spot)
Eden Park on the West line, Mt Smart on the southern line. Both from the city. Then about 10 min walk for EP and 15 for Mt Smart.
EP shuts down most of the roads around so impossible to park. Mt Smart has a large number of streets to park on and lots of businesses let you park on their property for a fee. Up to 15k, then it's easy to get a park. The Warriors sold out games were difficult to get one within 15 min walk
For Eden Park. It's possible to find car parking around Dominion Rd, more heading towards Mt Eden Road. Yeah you need to check the local permit parking signage.
Saw David Campese getting a park just off Dom Road, one Bledisloe Test a few years ago. Reminded him the Wallabies were of course going to lose.
While Eden Park is certainly a near-ideal location, I must say that I found Mt Smart much easier to get around / get eats, etc. It seemed "friendlier", somehow - and that's not just its size, it was a better experience than NHS as well. And I did actually manage to get there by bike (the Littlest Hooligan was playing on the field at half time so we got a carpark spot)
Try a Warriors game if you have the time then since you liked Mt Smart. Everyone is super friendly and it is the absolute best atmosphere of any sporting event currently in NZ. Even if you don't like league id go for the atmosphere alone
I used to volunteer on a school fundraiser that was a carparking area near Mt Smart. We'd pull $20k a season if the Warriors had a good year.
Some things to note.
We'd open the carpark 2-3 h before kick-off as typically there would be a reserves game before the main game so people would start arriving that early. Take in some of the reserves, have their hot chips and then settle in for the main game. The bad traffic was at the end of the game as everyone left at the same time. If they were serious about traffic management they might temporarily make some intersections no right turn or some roads one way to help clear everyone.
We'd see the same people from one game to the next and I figure that once most people figured out a way to get there, where to park etc., they would stick to that routine.
In terms of public transport, there are some buses 66/74/670 they tend to run East-West. 321 goes North/South but only runs Monday-Friday. Anywhere from North/South you are looking at the train using Penrose on the Southern line or Onehunga line. Compared to Kingsland on the Western line, it is one extra stop from Britomart. The walk is longer, I think Eden Park is 200m from Kingsland, Mt Smart is 900m from Penrose. If they were to improve anything with that you might try and shoehorn a dedicated (covered) walkway in. Penrose Station is also close to the depot at Otahuhu so if extra trains are needed they can be stored at the depot, with Eden Park the extra trains block the line for those wanting to use the train normally.
In terms of seats at Mt Smarts, the side seats are good and you are closer to the action than at Eden Park. At the Northern end I stood behind the goal for a while at the weekend but you'd probably look to try and get something with 5 or so rows of seats in there, just to avoid people congregating on the fence. Depends if the plan is to keep the food trucks there and if people should be able to see the game whilst queueing.
"In a further attempt to make a clean break from the ill-fated Kingz, the Knights relocated to North Harbour Stadium on Auckland’s North Shore. The decision to
move was also recognition by management of the competitive forces facing the Knights and a desire to move to a potentially more advantageous geographical location. The North Shore is attractive to the Knights in terms of demographics and socio-economic status while also being an area where soccer has a strong following. Thus management believed that playing the Knights’ home games at North Harbour Stadium would see the club better able to attract and retain spectators. Furthermore, the North Shore is not a location for one of the other high-profile professional sports teams connected with Auckland. The Knights’ previous stadium in Auckland’s south-west [sic - authors' geography is lacking] was the home ground for the New Zealand Warriors (New Zealand’s entry in the Australian professional rugby league competition). Continuing to play matches heavily associated with a rival football code would do little to help the club establish a ‘home’ for football."
Interesting that Foley is not influenced by any of these factors. He's not upset at the idea of groundsharing with the Wahs, nor is he influenced by what are euphemistically called "demographics" (i.e. that the Shore is richer and less Polynesian).
Wow that was a really fascinating read. I wonder what proportion of the focus groups they used were football fans?
Mt Smart might as well be on the moon for Westies and Shore dwellers, because it's Not Quite South Auckland and doesn't have the convenience of Kingsland nearby people don't show up.
Mt Smart might as well be on the moon for Westies and Shore dwellers, because it's Not Quite South Auckland and doesn't have the convenience of Kingsland nearby people don't show up.
but they show up from all over auckland for the Warriors. all the stadium debates are kinda pointless, it's the onfield product that is going to drive the average fan to the game, the fanatics will go to the games no matter where they are, even if they are on the moon.
— Wellington Phoenix 🔥 (@WgtnPhoenixFC) June 13, 2022
Foley should definitely base his Auckland team in Hamilton then. Convenient motorway links from north, south, east and west, there’s a good bowls club for a bit of a pre-game roll up, rail on Te Huia and even Vinny Lia slaps them in for fun. Plus it made Sean Lovemore look better than Kosta the year Kosta (probably given memory fog) top scored for Ange’s Brisbane…
Hamiltron! City of the Future!
Plus easier to get there from the rest of the island (southwards)…
I remember the beer options at the stadium that day being Waikato draught and Hapi-Daze of which I sampled both. Truly a welcoming space for all comers.
That is almost precisely the same attendance as the last Phoenix game at Mt Smart. I think it's the location. (I forget which year that was, but the chant was "Santalab's a racist")
Bang on, poorest stadium vibe of the big stadiums in Hamilton and Auckland. there is a reason the Kingz and Knights played at NHS.
That is almost precisely the same attendance as the last Phoenix game at Mt Smart. I think it's the location. (I forget which year that was, but the chant was "Santalab's a racist")
Bang on, poorest stadium vibe of the big stadiums in Hamilton and Auckland. there is a reason the Kingz and Knights played at NHS.
Could be a decision made as early as late Jan/early Feb next year. NZ needs a National Stadium min 50,000 but you also want it setup so that it can somehow provide a good atmosphere for sport in that 10,000-25,000 crowd size range (Warriors, Blues & Auckland FC).
Auckland stadiums: Eden Park and waterfront stadium among four pitches in search for main stadium
Eight interested parties submitted expressions of interest earlier this year but that field has since narrowed. The final quartet of proposals on the table, each the subject of 75-minute presentations on Monday, are:
Eden Park 2.0. This option sees a redevelopment of the historic venue, pushing the capacity to 60,000. There are plans for a retractable roof, a new north stand, upgrades to two other grandstands and a pedestrian accessway crossing Sandringham Rd.
The Tank Farm. Based at Wynyard Point, this is the newest proposal, believed to be based on a 50,000-60,000 capacity, transforming the former industrial wasteland into a downtown arena.
Quay Park. This bid, which first surfaced in 2021, is a 50,000-capacity stadium that can be scaled down to 20,000 for smaller events. The stadium is envisioned to be part of a new sports and entertainment precinct at the eastern end of the waterfront, in the vicinity of Spark Arena.
The presentations were made to the working group chaired by councillor Shane Henderson. The other councillors are Julie Fairey, Wayne Walker, Daniel Newman and Chris Darby. The panel also includes Sport New Zealand chief executive Raelene Castle, Tataki Auckland Unlimited boss Nick Hill, Tau Henare (independent Māori Statutory representative) and key mayoral adviser Simon Johnston.
“It went really well,” Henderson told the Herald. “We had some really different ideas and outside-the-box thinking and a real dedication to Aotearoa and what makes us unique and special. That’s pretty cool and that’s what you need in any kind of large civic space like that.”
Henderson declined to go into detail on the bids, saying, “That’s all highly confidential at this stage.”
The next step will see an independent assessment of the four pitches by a consulting company – believed to not be one of the “big four” – who will report back to the working group with their findings.
“It’s about kicking the tyres and getting a second opinion,” said Henderson. “We have some really good expertise on that working group and we also have councillors that are experts in the public opinion and the public mood but not necessarily on the day-to-day running of a stadium.
“This is obviously a huge investment, both in terms of finances and the future of the city for decades to come. We want to do this quickly, to provide certainty for Aucklanders, but it has to be balanced with some real strong expertise.”
Henderson said there were “quite different” financial models.
It’s believed that two of the downtown options were priced at just over $1 billion, with a third considerably more. Eden Park’s cost for its ambitious renovation was about $850 million. Mayor Brown has already instructed that minimal ratepayer funds will be available and the central Government has yet to commit.
“It’s a huge investment in terms of capital but it also has to wash its face from our operational perspective,” said Henderson. “So it’s not just stadium construction. The three waterfront options have all pitched proposals that include high levels of private funding.”
It’s understood that both the mayor and the Government have made it clear in private discussions that the final solution can’t be a “white elephant”. An artist's impression of the proposed "sunken stadium".
One industry expert told the Herald that the proposed main stadium, wherever it is ultimately placed, will need to have a minimum of 30 major events annually to break even and more than 40 to turn a profit.
That will mean that sporting content with anchor tenants such as the Warriors, Blues and the new Auckland A-League football team will be crucial given the fickle and complicated nature of entertainment events, especially large-scale concerts.
The working group is scheduled to meet once more in January before forwarding its recommendations to the council. The governing body could vote on the preferred stadium option as early as January 30, though Henderson conceded it could also slip to second scheduled council meeting in late February.
“It will be on the agenda,” said Henderson. “At that stage, we will be able to be a bit more open about identities of bidders.
“Auckland has shown we can do major events really well and this is the next step for us potentially. That is subject to councillors passing it through but it is an exciting next step.”
So it looks like that's a no on the 10-15-20k rectangular stadiums then. You know, exactly what this country is desperately crying out for...
Nah we'll just plonk another 50k white elephant in there somewhere. We'll get it filled two times a year for the egg ball + whatever concerts we can shove in and it can be a great big waste of space 80-90% of the time.
I suppose, if it's developers and not rate payers footing the bill, then some people must just be happy to throw their cash away.
So it looks like that's a no on the 10-15-20k rectangular stadiums then. You know, exactly what this country is desperately crying out for...
Nah we'll just plonk another 50k white elephant in there somewhere. We'll get it filled two times a year for the egg ball + whatever concerts we can shove in and it can be a great big waste of space 80-90% of the time.
I suppose, if it's developers and not rate payers footing the bill, then some people must just be happy to throw their cash away.
With an increase to 70 thousand. Insane if it happens. Insane that no one is pitching a useful stadium. But folk love a dick measuring contest I guess..! And the people who propose flushing money on enormous stadiums are usually the biggest dicks. Qatar, Saudi, FIFA…
Well it also means they have the council and union over a barrel whenever the ABs play and that stadium prices surely will skyrocket. The same would apply to the local games. Get the clubs reliant and charge what they want. That’s fairly much the PPP experience everywhere- you pay for it at some point. Just Remuera and Ponsonby won’t have rate rises! Which is the important thing here.
To be taken seriously as a country and to have any chance of hosting or part hosting events like Football World Cup (men’s & women’s), Club World Cup, Men’s Rugby World Cup you need at least 1 stadium above 50,000 capacity. A National Stadium. Aussie has 6 stadiums above 50,000 and 10 above 40,000. We have 1.
You build a 25,000 downtown waterfront stadium in Auckland, hosting Blues, Warriors and Auckland FC - Eden Park becomes that huge white elephant, hosting some 6 concerts and 2 ABs tests per year. Ratepayers then have to pour millions into it each year to keep it operational on highly valuable land ripe for development in a city needing housing
In the article above it says 40 events a year should see a 50k stadium pay it’s way and avoid white elephant status. Similar sized BC Place in Vancouver gets from memory over 200 events per year from flower shows to concerts to sport. All 4 options seem to have some merit, hopefully they choose the best one. The one with the least “forecast” required Council or Govt cash required will probably win
A boutique 20k downtown stadium is a nice have. A 50k National Stadium somewhere is a must have. And yeah they need to design it so that the smaller crowds still have a decent atmosphere on game day. Being a purpose built rectangle shape an absolute must.
I am a little non plussed over this stadium talk, i have heard it so many times. I would be putting my money on a Foley consortium building something.
Personally I think the very best option is to build the small 10-15,000 rectangle on Eden Park Number 2 and put a lick of paint on the main stadium, no need for new stands etc.
We have to accept that we are too small to attract the big events like the World Cup any more and out best course is on the coat tails of Australia, like we did with the WwC.
So it looks like that's a no on the 10-15-20k rectangular stadiums then. You know, exactly what this country is desperately crying out for...
Nah we'll just plonk another 50k white elephant in there somewhere. We'll get it filled two times a year for the egg ball + whatever concerts we can shove in and it can be a great big waste of space 80-90% of the time.
I suppose, if it's developers and not rate payers footing the bill, then some people must just be happy to throw their cash away.
I don't think this tells us anything about the likelihood of Foley's boutique stadium. If anything it's a good thing that he hasn't been brought into this conversation.
The Quay Park proposal is a 50k stadium near Spark Arena which could be scaled down to 20k for smaller events.
If that was a sort of top tier being curtained off arrangement in a way that didn't spoil the atmosphere or how it looked on TV then that could be quite a good solution.
Maybe Foley wants another stadium on top of these ones suggested? One that he owns significant rights in and largely controls access to?
If it’s true they’re looking at signing Krishna, then they must be some folk with sensible planning. Then you look at Bournemouth currently, and how Iraola was kept through an early rotten run. That’s gutsy.
None of the suggestions so far would be ideal for the Auckland franchise. And the Auckland franchise (and the npc rugby) might not only be needed for one or two of the quoted 40 events? Two games against the Nix and any potential finals. Even those derbies might fit in a 15k stadium, that had the ability for extra seating to be added for special occasions?
The Quay Park proposal is a 50k stadium near Spark Arena which could be scaled down to 20k for smaller events.
If that was a sort of top tier being curtained off arrangement in a way that didn't spoil the atmosphere or how it looked on TV then that could be quite a good solution.
Lol it’ll be like Eden Park with one half empty. Fan experience considered in design?
Maybe Foley wants another stadium on top of these ones suggested? One that he owns significant rights in and largely controls access to?
If it’s true they’re looking at signing Krishna, then they must be some folk with sensible planning. Then you look at Bournemouth currently, and how Iraola was kept through an early rotten run. That’s gutsy.
None of the suggestions so far would be ideal for the Auckland franchise. And the Auckland franchise (and the npc rugby) might not only be needed for one or two of the quoted 40 events? Two games against the Nix and any potential finals. Even those derbies might fit in a 15k stadium, that had the ability for extra seating to be added for special occasions?
Krishna has said he'd love to pay for the new Auckland team, not the other way around. But then they haven't even got a coach yet, so no mention of any targeted players.
With the Auckland stadium conundrum. All the main vested parties - NZ Govt, Auckland Council, NZ Rugby, even NZF (if we are talking about one day bidding to co host a mens WC, CWC etc) - want a National Stadium in Auckland with min 50,000 capacity. And they all want it operating with as many tenants & events as possible, so it operates profitably. Any new downtown rectangle stadium of say 25,000 as Foley mentioned briefly, would be threat to a profitable National Stadium if Auckland FC, Blues, Warriors preferred the smaller ground.
And if Auckland FC ever came to host an ALM grand final (or any playoff game), they may really want a ground for 50,000 fans. Here's some videos/photo on how BC Place looks at full capacity open, and then with the upper tiers hidden with giant curtains. Whitecaps & BC Lions the Canadian Football team are the main sporting tenants.
Cant see the current govt spending money on a new stadium at the moment, nor Auckland Council, theya re already investing in Eden park - although it now looks as though NZC are looking for a new home for test cricket, which will mean less sport at Eden park with the rugby looking elsewhere - not good signs for our national stadium.
I don't think a boutique football stadium would find itself in direct competition with a BC Place style lower tier all that much.
Foley's estimate for his stadium was 18,500. Wikipedia lists the BC Place lower tier capacity at nearly 28,000. Too big for the A-League, too big for NPC, too big for Chatham Cup finals etc.. In this senario it looks like Mt Smart and a national stadium would be the ones competing with eachother.
I don't think a boutique football stadium would find itself in direct competition with a BC Place style lower tier all that much.
Foley's estimate for his stadium was 18,500. Wikipedia lists the BC Place lower tier capacity at nearly 28,000. Too big for the A-League, too big for NPC, too big for Chatham Cup finals etc.. In this senario it looks like Mt Smart and a national stadium would be the ones competing with eachother.
Eden Park can't afford to lose the Blues. If EP is knocked down and replaced by a downtown waterfront stadium of similar 50,000 capacity, the new stadium owners (sounds like it's favoured it would mostly be a private investment model having to fund itself with as many days booked as possible) - will want as many tenants & events as possible. So they will want the Blues, Warriors & Auckland FC. The Auckland NPC team they won't care, the NPC crowds these days are too small be to important.
If any new Stadium lower tier is 25,000 but Auckland FC crowds only average 15,000 that won't matter. What will matter to all the stakeholders is Auckland FC are a valuable paying tenant of the new stadium.
I'm sure all of this is being explained to Foley. As much as he might like a more boutique 25,000 capacity stadium - he's likely being told that in the better interests of NZ as a whole a 50,000 capacity stadium similar to a BC Place is realistically the best option. Of course he may just say fudge it I'm a billionaire I'll build what I want, but that approach would piss off sectors of the Auckland community.
A downtown 18,500 rectangle ground in Auckland, as well as a centrally based profitable 50,000 National Stadium (Eden Park or wherever) would be great. But unfortunately the former puts the latter at risk of being a 'white elephant'.
I don't think a boutique football stadium would find itself in direct competition with a BC Place style lower tier all that much.
Foley's estimate for his stadium was 18,500. Wikipedia lists the BC Place lower tier capacity at nearly 28,000. Too big for the A-League, too big for NPC, too big for Chatham Cup finals etc.. In this senario it looks like Mt Smart and a national stadium would be the ones competing with eachother.
Eden Park can't afford to lose the Blues. If EP is knocked down and replaced by a downtown waterfront stadium of similar 50,000 capacity, the new stadium owners (sounds like it's favoured it would mostly be a private investment model having to fund itself with as many days booked as possible) - will want as many tenants & events as possible. So they will want the Blues, Warriors & Auckland FC. The Auckland NPC team they won't care, the NPC crowds these days are too small be to important.
If any new Stadium lower tier is 25,000 but Auckland FC crowds only average 15,000 that won't matter. What will matter to all the stakeholders is Auckland FC are a valuable paying tenant of the new stadium.
I'm sure all of this is being explained to Foley. As much as he might like a more boutique 25,000 capacity stadium - he's likely being told that in the better interests of NZ as a whole a 50,000 capacity stadium similar to a BC Place is realistically the best option. Of course he may just say fudge it I'm a billionaire I'll build what I want, but that approach would piss off sectors of the Auckland community.
A downtown 18,500 rectangle ground in Auckland, as well as a centrally based profitable 50,000 National Stadium (Eden Park or wherever) would be great. But unfortunately the former puts the latter at risk of being a 'white elephant'.
An A-league mens and womens team will give us nearly 30 new events maybe. Plenty to go around. For decades now consortiums have been pitching a new downtown stadium - I don't think they were banking on an Auckland A-League team to make it viable. I'm sure with everyone at one stadium you would eventually run into scheduling problems also.
A new Auckland downtown Stadium, which was last looked at really seriously pre the 2011 RWC, was always discussed prior as a replacement to Eden Park, so capacity 50,000 plus. Discussion about building something around 18,500 has only come up because Foley mentioned it. Again he may not have fully understood the different dynamics to the whole broader Auckland jigsaw, when he made his comment.
AAMI stadium in Melbs hosts VUC, Melb City, Melb Rebels (Super Rugby) & Mel Storm (NRL). They make the scheduling work with 4 teams. No cricket. NZ Cricket need to find an Auckland home for themselves elsewhere if EP is knocked over.
Oh and with no offence intended I don't think ALW games which might attract 3,000 max in Auckland after the initial novelty, are really the type of fixtures (similar NPC rugby games), that stadium experts say contribute to that 30-40 event annual target to breakeven/turn a profit. As mentioned elsewhere Auckland's ALW team are likely to be playing mostly at Kiwitea St or similar. Foley builds his 18,500 stadium he'll be keen to woo the Warriors & Blues as fellow tenants.
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