2016/17 Phoenix Preseason

Well you put out the challenge, I was just responding with what seemed like some good evidence.

 

I don't think you could argue that it was 4-4-2 without wingers against Miramar. Against Stop Out perhaps. 

You can generally tell if a team is playing "a diamond" because the wide defenders get quite high to provide width. Against Stop Out they played that young kid with the hyphenated surname at right back and he didn't leave his own half. On the other side I forget who it was. Width came from the midfield, which is indicative of either an ordinary midfield 4 (with width) or wide forwards. 

Against Miramar Kosta basically ran up and down the right touch line until he came off. He was playing no position other than wing. So I'm not sure how that fits into the 4-4-2 you thought you were seeing?

It is fun to actually be discussing Phoenix tactics and players again though isn't it! 

 

Yeah totally fair. Sorry I wasn't trying to shoot it down, just pointing out that you've never actually seen him do it so I guess we'll see! 

A further thought: he hasn't been trying to do any box to box action during preseason as far as I've seen.

All good. You're totally right he hasn't played that way in HAL. I just think he could.

I know the Miramar game was a bit of a farce in terms of opposition, but he was dropping back a lot deeper than normal and attempting to win the ball in our own half (probably would have picked up a yellow in a competitive game for at least two blatant fouls while doing so).

I would think that ARod and Finkler are the only players in that shape that will stay roughly in those positions. The others will change, WeeMac at times will push into the left channel and Krishna (who likely to start on the left and Kosta on the right) will move centrally with Kosta staying wider on the right and Roly not pushing as far forward. The reverse can happen with Roly pushing in the right channel and Kosta moving centrally, Krishna staying wider and WeeMac a little deeper. Or Roly/WeeMac push forward centrally (and we become a 4222) with Krishna and Kosta positioning themselves on the outside of the FBs looking for balls played between CB and FB to run on to.

4-4-2 diamond but with the two up top more as wingers or wide forwards than strikers and the top of diamond more of a false 9?

I havent seen any of their preseason games but that to me seems a perfectly viable and relatively sensible option given the personnel.

And if you have a quality front 5 (Roly and Weemac CMs, Finkler in front and Kosta and Krishna high and wide) I don't think you employ overlapping fullbacks. They may provide support for getting in crosses but not necessarily the attacking fullbacks that have otherwise been so popular. Then you don't need the extra man in front of the back four as you've generally always got 4 back plus your holding midfielder.

And agreed - nice to have some actual football chat!

With Powell and Appiah :) gone. Surely that means that Ernie is in the market for a striker? and what happens then if/when we sign a quality striker (aka someone who is 1st 11 quality not benchwarming or "one for the future")? If it happens, then does Weemac falls out of the starting 11? as imo he is the weakest player no matter which position he is in - which indicates how strong our attacking mid stocks are! 

Pure speculation, and maybe this is the wrong thread for that (but then again it might not, see Roly as a "box to box" player). but if/when we sign a striker, i think our formation will change so that it is a very fluid 4-2-3-1, with Roly paired with A rod in the middle but in a roaming role (but not box to box, as i agree with smithy) and Gui playing in the pocket behind the striker. 

Sorry Smithy, but I had to laugh at Ballanes response. My apologies but it was funny.

Now Fenton, he is rapidly becoming an enigma. Awesome promjse on his debut, speed to kill and looks like a right midfielder whom could also go down the wing. I feel so sorry for him. The stupid right back experiment has been a huge failure in my opinion. Capped off with the two shoulder injuries. Could or will he ever lIve up to his huge promise? I hope so, he is a likeable guy whom really gave me hope of a successful youth coming through.

The club need to get a specialist RB and a CB. It is glaringly obvious. Now that the european teansfer market is open, I hope this is beings looked at. Player "conversions" rately work with a few exceptions of course.

Maybe we should adopt the spinning wheel midfield attack? It is one where your midfielders and forward constantly interchange and rotate in such a way that the opposition defence dont know who it is they should be marking. Basically, they move around and then take up positions in the empty or open space. It can cause confusion unless they decide to play a zonal marking system.

i think essentially we are all talking about the same sort of system but with slightly different terminology and tweaked details, but we expect no traditional centre forward or wingers, width from attackers rather than mids or fullbacks, and a compressed midfield operating narrowly behind the attackers. Finkler will play further forwards than Roly and A-Rod and/or Lia will be DM(s). If we struggle to breakdown tight defences we will bring Watson on to play the traditional 9 role. 

How well it works is probably massively dependent on Kosta and Finkler adjusting to the system (Burns did , Sarpong didn't) and on the quality of defender we can bring in. No point having this fancy midfield if we are conceding heaps and struggling to play out from the back.

Yep i think you're basically spot on with that summary.

I didn't see the Mar game so I'm basing that mostly off of the way they set up against Stop Out. The Right Back not getting forward in that game I think was more indicative of the player being very cautious of his own accord as opposed to the system not allowing him. As evidenced by Gulley being very attacking from Left Back in the second half. The formation is really quite fluid, in that it changes between a diamond and 3 up front depending on the personnel and situation of the game.

Will Watson get a look in for a starting role. At the end of least season he was our most effective attacker.

If he did start, how would that change our set up?

          Watson

Krishna          Kosta  (Looking for flick ons and knock downs when through balls have not been played.

          Finkler             (The link man to the front three)

A - Rod        Bone    (Lia to be DM back up with McG who can cover here and the top 4 as well.)

Doyle and RB to provide width.

I haven't put McG into the starting line up because for me he has been disappointing, lack of goals and assists and needs to earn his starting spot again.

Of course none of this matters if we don't see Watson as a starter. (De Vries would be the perfect signing to complement our current thinking and expected price range)

Good that is the best formation for the nix.

 

If you move your two forwards to the wings and push your 10 into the 9 that is a 4-3-3!!!

I'm not sure about that. I'm fairly certain you had Kosta and Krishna as centre forwards in an earlier post? While we/Ernie might call Kosta a forward I think you'll find him pretty wide, basically a traditional winger. Width from attackers exactly as you say. That's not a 4-4-2. But anyway.

What all this chat does highlight is that we don't really have much of a squad. Krishna is our only established goal scoring option. We have an over-supply of midfielders who like to attack and a shortage of midfielders who are capable at defending. Riera quitting must just about be Ernie's worst-case-scenario for this off season.

I can see an extensive role for Watson this campaign. Krishna I predit will be famine or feast. He's got a hot streak in him but I can't see him carrying a team to the top 4. 

where Fentons career is at 

That's a terminology thing though. Formation diagrams and position names don't necessarily say a lot. It's how the players execute the roles on the pitch. I had Krishna and Kosta as attackers in a 4-4-2 diamond, or 4-1-2-1-2, but that just means they would be the most advanced players on attack, not that they would be CFs as such. Unless you would call the role Burns and Krishna played the previous season a centre forward. Like you said, if you call the middle guy dropping back in a false 9 then it's a 4-3-3 but it doesn't actually change anything other than the label you put on it.

I guess we do disagree on how wide though. I can see them starting widish and drifting in, rather than hugging the line, basically because Ernie has shunned width on attack for at least 2 seasons and I can't see that changing. It seems like an ideological position for him to not have wingers.

Agree that it does feel damn good to be talking seriously about our selections and tactics again though!

So let's play Roly at CB then?

thought experiment. 

Kosta scores about one every four games which is a pretty good return for a winger, most importantly when he was played as a wide forward at the roar he was at one every 2.75.

He is much more prolific than Burns was when he came here.
So I'd say Kosta is definitely an established goal scorer.

I think we will end up being 4-3-3 in defence, 4-2-2-2 in attack like we were in 14/15 when we were playing really good. The Leopold Method did an article about our formation here http://leopoldmethod.com.au/wellington-phoenix/

Finkler goes into the Wee Mac role on the image, Kosta replaces Burns and then we push A-Rod into Riera's role, Roly into A-Rods spot & Wee Mac into Rolys role.

Joey Katebian, 40 goals in 40 games for Melbourne youth??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joey_Katebian

 

I've never seen Roly even look like a good defender. And you do get chances to defend when you're a midfielder.

It's odd that he was signed as DM and CB cover, Ernie did unearth a gem.

The problem is, however, that Rolly isn't a good playmaker. He can beat a man, looks good with the ball at his feet, and can shoot from range, but doesn't have the vision to set up goals.

Rolly needs to play behind Finkler in the midfield. He can take the ball, beat a player, and pass to Finkler. And because he can beat a man, and score goals from distance he has to be marked heavily, which frees up Finkler as well.

If Ernie lets him shoot

What about this. 

          

                                Moss

                      4 man defensive

                             Roly 

           McGlinchey       Finkler 

 Kosta                      Fiji              Rogerson 

Could we take another look at a back 3? Bold but gives us options for our plethora of D/C/AM's and wingers.

We don't have enough defenders, and I doubt we will be able to sign two A-League quality CBs, if you mean to play with 3 CBs (another to start, plus one on the bench). Assuming, of course, Fox can continue his run of A-League quality-ness. Also, back 3 generally takes players away from the midfield, because it ends up becoming a 5 at the back with wing-backs. If you want a back 3 with more options for the midfield, then your left and right sided defenders get drawn too wide, and you end up with huge gaps right through the middle of the park and/or two central strikers being marked by one defender.

What about a 4-4-2

thanks. I needed a giggle

I would be pleased if Ernie does away with the wing backs. This has been tried over many years with poor results. How many times have we seen a goal scored against us only  to see wing backs way up the field trotting back when then damage has been done? Many times they go forward ahead of the ball  but are hiding behind opposition players with no angle provided to receive a pass.

Then when they do get forward and recieve the ball  in an attacking position, often they have no impact . No problem with fullbacks getting forward but perhaps over lapping and catching the opposition defence off guard by making the run late when they do not expect it. Also by making runs from behind the  ball they can drop back quickly if the ball is lost.

Wing backs are fine if you play two DM's as they can slot into the centre and let one of the CB's push out wide to cover, or alternatively shut down the space themselves.

Our biggest issue was we lacked any real cohesion and movement so we got caught flat footed and teams pushed through us. We defended so much, because we didnt know how to attack.

With Barbs we should always have a willing runner up top looking for the ball and less pressure on Roly as well to find space.

 

There's a good point there. In signing Finkler and Barba we should have more dangerous outlets to attack through, which straight away makes it harder for opposition defences.

Yes. The wingbacks are needed to create width and overload up front. If one wingback moves forward you turn into a 3 men defence with a more defensive midfielder screening in front. If Kosta does an attack on the right side you want the wingback moving forward to give an option far right. Kosta could either dribble straight into the box, pass right to the winger for a cross or into the middle for some Finkmagic. This is a nightmare to defend because you need two defenders alone to stay with Kosta, this hopefully creates space for our attacking midfielders. I hope we switch faster from defence into attack, this was nightmarish slow last season. I was surprised how quickly they moved the ball last week against Miramar, one touch football. I thought also the opening passes from the CB could be improved, more like that long ball from Siggy last year which lead to a goal. They play often to people who can't process the ball into a meaningful way.

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Yes. The wingbacks are needed to create width and overload up front. If one wingback moves forward you turn into a 3 men defence with a more defensive midfielder screening in front.

Sounds good in theory but unfortunately has been a failure in recent seasons.

Bring back Boxall

I wholeheartedly endorse this

Only Two months and 21 days till it's not pre-season any more. Fudge that's a long time.

You not feeling the #MagicOfTheFFACup?

Get hyped!

When do they head off to China? Must be soon.