WPM R4 vs Auckland FC | Sat 8th Nov | 7:00pm | RoF / SS1

Smeltz4PM

This high line concept is killing me. We can play reasonably well overall but you try that with inexperienced kids when it requires so much focus and discipline, only for one lapse to give away a soft goal.
You have to assume that if we persist with it we're going to give away a minimum of a goal a game to this tactic, so we then have to find a way to score two or more if we're planning on winning anything 

Buckle in because i dont think they are changing it any time soon.

Nix are second best in xG at at the attacking end, best in xG at the defensive end https://footystats.org/australia/a-league/xg.

High line also gets you chances.  Eze doesn't score that goal if you give Brimmer time to take a touch and get his head up.

Chiefy was told to be more entertaining 1-2 is more entertaining than 0-0.  Another day, Randall has a bad first touch, and Hall allows Piper to score,  it is 2-1

Both goals we conceded, Najjarane closed FDV down from the side allowing FDV to play forward.  FDV does well to play that ball quickly with the right amount of weight, and Randell first touch helps a lot as well.

Also note https://aleagues.com.au/match/a-league-men/wellington-phoenix-vs-auckland-08-11-2025/?tab=match-stats and the passing map.  No passes from Loke->Najjarane, or anyone to Eze.  There is room for improvement

theprof

depending on when De Vries arrived back in NZ, was it 2023? I'm trying to remember who our LB was at the time, was it Kelly-Heald and Sutton? If so we had the spot covered and clearly didn't see the need to add another one.

And also Loke made a cup debut around that time on the left side too iirc.

I think the discussion around signing ex-AWs or mid-career journeymen is interesting.

One, I think we couldn’t afford them mostly. 

Two, as discussed at length Chief underestimated the balance of his squad last year, and a Rogerson or De Vries with experience would have been handy to lead the newer players. We’ve seen this a bit with Piper, Armiento, Najjirine, Mileusnic coming in. All slightly below the level those two were at last season, but improving all the time, fingers crossed.

Three, after Marco and Chico there might have been a gun-shyness around injuries. Heck, it’s continued with Ishige. 

Four, AFC are putting together a squad for the first time so are going to sign available players. As mentioned above we had players in positions. For example, two years ago Supyk had much more A league and international age group experience than Randall. GSR was threatening to be a young breakout star. We didn’t hear much about Luke or Randall or Walker iirc.

Five, I’m sure at some point there was some complacency or that as the professional club players should be knocking down the door wanting to play, doing trials, demanding opportunities. I think maybe Uffie made a comment in relation to Payney perhaps? Compare that to Elliot coming in young, moving position for Rudan so he could get a chance. That mindset has had to change now. 

Six, I have a feeling that although we kept in touch with the guys overseas, if they’d done well enough to get a contract out if NZ, we kind of left them to it and treated them as graduated. 

Seven, most saw coming to the A league a backward step. I feel like the Aussies, say Behich or Tillio, or even Aaron Mooy are happier to yo-yo a bit and keep playing. Say for example Garbett. Most of us didn’t think he should come here just to be playing, but Mooy arguably the better player had a go in the SPFL and returned to WSW and City. It’s that possibly the Ole/Nix culture divide of the past still being a factor? 

Smeltz4PM

This high line concept is killing me. We can play reasonably well overall but you try that with inexperienced kids when it requires so much focus and discipline, only for one lapse to give away a soft goal.
You have to assume that if we persist with it we're going to give away a minimum of a goal a game to this tactic, so we then have to find a way to score two or more if we're planning on winning anything 

To me it is the epitome of Chief's naivety. 
Announce to all and sundry what you will be doing. They can then get ready to expose the weakness in this approach. 
Then stubbornly continue with it when it clearly isnt working because the players arent good enough/experienced enough/the best are injured.
Get a plan B Chief (but dont tell anyone)

The other coaches in the league dont need to be told what we're trying to do. Telling them gives them no additional information.

There's also no evidence that it isnt working, the results to date have been mostly acceptable, and we've arguably been unlucky not to take more from each of the matches we've dropped points, even considering the goals that come from playing aggressively while dealing with major injury disruption.

If you offered me where we are now at the start of the season I'd have ripped your hand off considering where my expectations were.

If anything, his ability to flip in approach 180 between seasons and bring the players along with him speaks to his quality as a coach.

I am not a football tactician so have no comment on the suitability of the high defensive line.  What I do see is a gamble that allowed us to actually score some goals to date, and to lose so far only against the past season premiers. Sure, we played against nine men in the end. But let's not forget Payne, Ishige, Walker (known qualities) were missing.
I also see a more positive mindset, just by having Armiento and Eze our attack is more lively.  I would still like to see some more direct football whenever we hit the opposing team on a break, rather than "transition to attack" and wait for the opposition to get back into its own defensive third, despite us having runners that were begging for the ball to be passed to them.
Contrary to many, I did not see our result against A-FC as a complete disaster ("they could not score against nine men").  I would like to see how we turn out against Macarthur and what tweaking Chiefy employs on the day.

Yeah I don't think the high line is completely the problem it just needs some tweaks. Such as right at the start of the game we don't need to be doing such an aggressive high line right from kick off while we settle into the game and get into the rhythm. Against Brisbane, Auckland and CCM although I think the CCM game they were offside they got a dangerous break straight off kickoff.

 And then the other thing when they're deeper in their half, its fine for the forward and midfield to have higher line of pressing but I think the CB's should be at least 5-10 meters behind half way so even if they do play a long ball over the top the attacker should have a bit less time on the ball with Josh sweeping. 

When the opposition is progressing the ball through the middle, then having quite a high defensive line is good as it restricts the space and will force them to play over but the gap between the line and the GK will be a lot shorter than from halfway so theres more chance of the pass not working.

Nelfoos

The other coaches in the league dont need to be told what we're trying to do. Telling them gives them no additional information.

There's also no evidence that it isnt working, the results to date have been mostly acceptable, and we've arguably been unlucky not to take more from each of the matches we've dropped points, even considering the goals that come from playing aggressively while dealing with major injury disruption.

If you offered me where we are now at the start of the season I'd have ripped your hand off considering where my expectations were.

If anything, his ability to flip in approach 180 between seasons and bring the players along with him speaks to his quality as a coach.

Roar, ccm, and afc all sit above us and we should have taken more points off the ccm and possibly the afc game. Ccm didn't even have a shot in the entire first half against us. Its a pain that injuries are likely already having negative impacts in terms of quality, depth and experience, and for cohesion on defence and attack.

ballane

Simon B

Elemenop wrote:

Auckland have a damn slide. That'd be in the harbour if we had that in Wellington 😄

But we could offer the best half-time blokart races!

Speaking of half-time entertainment I did have a laugh when the first song in DJ Nixie’s set was Bliss.

I wasnt laughing i was friggen annoyed is what i was. Thing is club were told nothing like being welcoming i guess.

Maybe I misinterpreted things, but I assumed Nixie was taking the piss out of AFC by tearing up their favourite song.

Over 2 years ago, Randall had already had a very successful national league spell, been at northern Kentucky University playing in the horizon league  and becoming freshman of the year plus all team selections including US college football all USA 3rd team.
He also played at the u17 World Cup in Brazil, wcq in the ofc and scored at he Olympics (despite under and injury cloud), comparison with supyk seems peculiar

And of course his first professional contract was with Charleston in the USL 

martinb

I think the discussion around signing ex-AWs or mid-career journeymen is interesting.

One, I think we couldn’t afford them mostly. 

Two, as discussed at length Chief underestimated the balance of his squad last year, and a Rogerson or De Vries with experience would have been handy to lead the newer players. We’ve seen this a bit with Piper, Armiento, Najjirine, Mileusnic coming in. All slightly below the level those two were at last season, but improving all the time, fingers crossed.

Three, after Marco and Chico there might have been a gun-shyness around injuries. Heck, it’s continued with Ishige. 

Four, AFC are putting together a squad for the first time so are going to sign available players. As mentioned above we had players in positions. For example, two years ago Supyk had much more A league and international age group experience than Randall. GSR was threatening to be a young breakout star. We didn’t hear much about Luke or Randall or Walker iirc.

Five, I’m sure at some point there was some complacency or that as the professional club players should be knocking down the door wanting to play, doing trials, demanding opportunities. I think maybe Uffie made a comment in relation to Payney perhaps? Compare that to Elliot coming in young, moving position for Rudan so he could get a chance. That mindset has had to change now. 

Six, I have a feeling that although we kept in touch with the guys overseas, if they’d done well enough to get a contract out if NZ, we kind of left them to it and treated them as graduated. 

Seven, most saw coming to the A league a backward step. I feel like the Aussies, say Behich or Tillio, or even Aaron Mooy are happier to yo-yo a bit and keep playing. Say for example Garbett. Most of us didn’t think he should come here just to be playing, but Mooy arguably the better player had a go in the SPFL and returned to WSW and City. It’s that possibly the Ole/Nix culture divide of the past still being a factor? 

Sorry, this tickled me ... Mooy arguably the better player compared to ... Garbett?

I think Garbett (and Bazeley/AW fans) dreams about being as good as Mooy. Mooy played around 100 games in the EPL!

Praline

Over 2 years ago, Randall had already had a very successful national league spell, been at northern Kentucky University playing in the horizon league  and becoming freshman of the year plus all team selections including US college football all USA 3rd team.
He also played at the u17 World Cup in Brazil, wcq in the ofc and scored at he Olympics (despite under and injury cloud), comparison with supyk seems peculiar

I bow to your superior knowledge! 

However Supyk went to WCs at age group and had interest from Stoke, right? 
It’s tough. Thinking of guys like Jake Pelter, iirc his name correctly or that other lad who had a contract at Blackburn, Cam…Lindsay ? They didn’t end up far ahead. 
Perhaps Randall was ahead at that point, but there was hopes Supyk might develop his own path? 

Silent

martinb

I think the discussion around signing ex-AWs or mid-career journeymen is interesting.

One, I think we couldn’t afford them mostly. 

Two, as discussed at length Chief underestimated the balance of his squad last year, and a Rogerson or De Vries with experience would have been handy to lead the newer players. We’ve seen this a bit with Piper, Armiento, Najjirine, Mileusnic coming in. All slightly below the level those two were at last season, but improving all the time, fingers crossed.

Three, after Marco and Chico there might have been a gun-shyness around injuries. Heck, it’s continued with Ishige. 

Four, AFC are putting together a squad for the first time so are going to sign available players. As mentioned above we had players in positions. For example, two years ago Supyk had much more A league and international age group experience than Randall. GSR was threatening to be a young breakout star. We didn’t hear much about Luke or Randall or Walker iirc.

Five, I’m sure at some point there was some complacency or that as the professional club players should be knocking down the door wanting to play, doing trials, demanding opportunities. I think maybe Uffie made a comment in relation to Payney perhaps? Compare that to Elliot coming in young, moving position for Rudan so he could get a chance. That mindset has had to change now. 

Six, I have a feeling that although we kept in touch with the guys overseas, if they’d done well enough to get a contract out if NZ, we kind of left them to it and treated them as graduated. 

Seven, most saw coming to the A league a backward step. I feel like the Aussies, say Behich or Tillio, or even Aaron Mooy are happier to yo-yo a bit and keep playing. Say for example Garbett. Most of us didn’t think he should come here just to be playing, but Mooy arguably the better player had a go in the SPFL and returned to WSW and City. It’s that possibly the Ole/Nix culture divide of the past still being a factor? 

Sorry, this tickled me ... Mooy arguably the better player compared to ... Garbett?

I think Garbett (and Bazeley/AW fans) dreams about being as good as Mooy. Mooy played around 100 games in the EPL!

😄 I mean Garbett’s already had a Eredivisie career before he shifted his attention to England…

Tbf think Mooy was in Australia at a comparable time in Garbett’s career. But yeh…

Remember when we had
Coveny 
Smelz
Old
Lochhead
Barbarouses
Christie
Brown
Paston
Moss
And added Bertos and Draper the following year.

mjp2

Remember when we had
Coveny 
Smelz
Old
Lochhead
Barbarouses
Christie
Brown
Paston
Moss
And added Bertos and Draper the following year.

At that time the early Nix were very comparable to current Auckland. Both building an A League club/squad from scratch, and neither with a proper Academy setup.

Bertos and Mulligan.  Draper made his only appearances in season 1.  

I love the the high line. After last years horrible performances every game has been exciting. We are scoring goals and creating chances and picking up points.
The issues for me about the high line are its execution. Because of injuries we have never had the same back line in consecutive games. A new tactic takes time especially when you are dealing with young inexperianced players.
If we can regularly field our best 11 then we will be ok. In the meantime I am enjoying the ride.

the high line with James running things at the back is way more effective than having Hughes and Sheridan running things. Add to that Loke instead of Payne.
It's right to expect that these professional footballers can do better, but also you have to remember they are in there early 20's and are gonna make mistakes.

We are 4 weeks into the season, so we need to give the kids time to execute the plan whilst under actual gameday pressure - it will come. Hopefully James and Payne arent out for too long.

I don’t know too much about the high line but I do have a question for those more tactically astute if Chief is playing it correctly.

Obviously the offside line is crucial.

The major issue I see with it is the second goal that AFC scored. 

Randall is just in his own half at the defining moment when the pass is made and so can never be offside. 

Now if one of your opponents has pace and one of your opponents can weight a pass, surely in this scenario you are shipping a goal every game by having all defenders in the opposition half?

In some games you are going to be absolutely flogged.

Now I don’t know if it still qualifies as a high line (maybe it does maybe it doesn’t) but surely you want the defenders one metre back from the half way line to negate this issue? 

In that scenario the goal is not scored. 

I think that is one of the errors Chief is talking about, unless you have a pacey defender who can match or catch the winger or someone really good at intercepting a pass from the midfield then sitting on the halfway line makes little to no sense.
No doubt their coaching team will have them watching each goal and identifying where they should have been to avoid it in future.

wilbaker

Yeah I don't think the high line is completely the problem it just needs some tweaks. Such as right at the start of the game we don't need to be doing such an aggressive high line right from kick off while we settle into the game and get into the rhythm. Against Brisbane, Auckland and CCM although I think the CCM game they were offside they got a dangerous break straight off kickoff.

 And then the other thing when they're deeper in their half, its fine for the forward and midfield to have higher line of pressing but I think the CB's should be at least 5-10 meters behind half way so even if they do play a long ball over the top the attacker should have a bit less time on the ball with Josh sweeping. 

When the opposition is progressing the ball through the middle, then having quite a high defensive line is good as it restricts the space and will force them to play over but the gap between the line and the GK will be a lot shorter than from halfway so theres more chance of the pass not working.

Chiefy will probably have the tweaks all sorted out around the last game of the season ...and then no doubt some press conference where he talks about the season that provided a lot of learnings....

Yes, its dumb having your defenders in the opposition half.
I watched Barcelonas last game....they are copying Chiefys high line LOL.
Four times their high line got caught out in first 30 mins resulting in 2 goals, half time score 3-2 to Barcelona match ended 4-2.
Great fun to watch. Its going to be an exciting season at the Nix. Someone is going to thrash us but we will also trouble lots of teams. We wanted action and we are getting it.

AucklandPhoenix

I don’t know too much about the high line but I do have a question for those more tactically astute if Chief is playing it correctly.

Obviously the offside line is crucial.

The major issue I see with it is the second goal that AFC scored. 

Randall is just in his own half at the defining moment when the pass is made and so can never be offside. 

Now if one of your opponents has pace and one of your opponents can weight a pass, surely in this scenario you are shipping a goal every game by having all defenders in the opposition half?

In some games you are going to be absolutely flogged.

Now I don’t know if it still qualifies as a high line (maybe it does maybe it doesn’t) but surely you want the defenders one metre back from the half way line to negate this issue? 

In that scenario the goal is not scored. 

The halfway line doesn't really matter because given time and space, every pro player can play a pass to someone making a run. Thus the most important part is the pressing, to make sure attackers can't turn and play that ball. 

If you're a good defensive unit, when the press is weak and attackers have time to face goal and look for a pass, you should be dropping off.

The problem is if you're anticipating this too much you're widening the space between you and your pressing midfield, giving attackers different kinds of space and opening the possibility that a pass into the strikers will totally circumvent your midfield.

Calling the tactic a "high line" is a bit naive, and even pointing too many fingers at the back 4 is wrong too. Both goals came from midfielders not closing down quick enough.

Yeah but you want to be able to step out on those not making a run and being at halfway gives you nothing

austin111

Yes, its dumb having your defenders in the opposition half.
I watched Barcelonas last game....they are copying Chiefys high line LOL.
Four times their high line got caught out in first 30 mins resulting in 2 goals, half time score 3-2 to Barcelona match ended 4-2.
Great fun to watch. Its going to be an exciting season at the Nix. Someone is going to thrash us but we will also trouble lots of teams. We wanted action and we are getting it.

Chiefy said that in one of the interviews at the start of the season, that he saw Barcelona do that and thought "why not Phoenix".

Bullion

Nelfoos

The other coaches in the league dont need to be told what we're trying to do. Telling them gives them no additional information.

There's also no evidence that it isnt working, the results to date have been mostly acceptable, and we've arguably been unlucky not to take more from each of the matches we've dropped points, even considering the goals that come from playing aggressively while dealing with major injury disruption.

If you offered me where we are now at the start of the season I'd have ripped your hand off considering where my expectations were.

If anything, his ability to flip in approach 180 between seasons and bring the players along with him speaks to his quality as a coach.

Roar, ccm, and afc all sit above us and we should have taken more points off the ccm and possibly the afc game. Ccm didn't even have a shot in the entire first half against us. Its a pain that injuries are likely already having negative impacts in terms of quality, depth and experience, and for cohesion on defence and attack.

True, but for the CCM game we did not win because of the injury-inducing CCM style of play, not just because of Payne doing his shoulder ahead of it.  Loke was a very good fallback option for Payne's position.  Us not having sufficient number of people built like a brick sharkhouse on the field did not help us on the day, as much as not having a ref with more common sense in charge of the game.  
Good footballing spectacle comes not just from watching the "entertaining niggly confrontations" but from from watching skillful players doing amazing things with the ball, where the skill does not rely on brawn. There are other sports I can watch for that. Skillful playmakers need to be protected against borderline thuggery from the opposition. 

The ability of the goal keeper to read the game when playing a high line is also essential. 

Oly has a way to go in this regard.

MetalLegNZ

The ability of the goal keeper to read the game when playing a high line is also essential. 

Oly has a way to go in this regard.

Only 24, so whilst he's had plenty of good experience at youth levels etc, he's still young-ish for a keeper.

MetalLegNZ

The ability of the goal keeper to read the game when playing a high line is also essential. 

Oly has a way to go in this regard.

Valid point, as is people saying that the issue is the execution and not the tactic. But Chief knows the players he has. Josh sweeping - not his strong point. A very inexperienced set of defenders both individually and collectively - maybe just give them an extra yard and don't count on being let off the hook by marginal VAR offside reviews

The thing with the high line is players must be 100% focused for the whole match. First goal conceded after 28 seconds because Najjarine didnt press De Vries and he got time to get his head up and pass over the top and unfortunately young Loke didnt keep the line. Not dumping on a youngster but it shows what can happen if you are not focused from the get go.
Second goal line was too high and Randall was still in his own half when the pass was made so impossible to be offside.
The cause of both goals very fixable

coochiee

mjp2

Remember when we had
Coveny 
Smelz
Old
Lochhead
Barbarouses
Christie
Brown
Paston
Moss
And added Bertos and Draper the following year.

At that time the early Nix were very comparable to current Auckland. Both building an A League club/squad from scratch, and neither with a proper Academy setup.

Yep, that was the point.

austin111

The thing with the high line is players must be 100% focused for the whole match. First goal conceded after 28 seconds because Najjarine didnt press De Vries and he got time to get his head up and pass over the top and unfortunately young Loke didnt keep the line. Not dumping on a youngster but it shows what can happen if you are not focused from the get go.
Second goal line was too high and Randall was still in his own half when the pass was made so impossible to be offside.
The cause of both goals very fixable

Agreed, none of this is the same as last year which seemed very broken. There is a very clear plan but with certain injuries we are now relying on young players to be switched on from the get go and to maintain that for a full 90, which isn't something they may have had to be in recent times or ever. It will come, this is all good learnings for the team. 
4 games in 5 points, 1W 2D 1L, not our worst first month, and we've looked competitive in all of those games.

I’m making a huge generalisation here and I’m sure lots of counter-examples immediately spring to mind, but this is one of the reasons I find the women’s game so entertaining to watch.

Simon B

Mainland FC wrote:

Good footballing spectacle comes not just from watching the "entertaining niggly confrontations" but from from watching skillful players doing amazing things with the ball, where the skill does not rely on brawn. There are other sports I can watch for that.

I’m making a huge generalisation here and I’m sure lots of counter-examples immediately spring to mind, but this is one of the reasons I find the women’s game so entertaining to watch.

I was surprised myself how totally engrossing the Womens World Cup was.

THe womens game over the last few years has been excellent viewing. Less BS, less diving, less professional fouls, less macho posturing and very entertaining.
Living in Europe i get to watch lots of mens football. Its always a shock dipping back into the AL after the long off season.
The AL is like a combat sport with players getting smashed and coaches ranting on the sidelines. The irony is that the the AL wont become a better spectacle until you protect the smaller playmakers.
At the moment thugs like Steele get away with ending the season of playmakers like Ishigi

Is it just me or was the Steele/Ishige incident that resulted in his injury one of the most innocuous of fouls in that game? Haven't gone back and watched the replay or anything but it seemed more like an awkward coming together than anything else.

imanixsupporter

Is it just me or was the Steele/Ishige incident that resulted in his injury one of the most innocuous of fouls in that game? Haven't gone back and watched the replay or anything but it seemed more like an awkward coming together than anything else.

In my mind it was an orange challenge