FFA restrictions on Phoenix

I heard Ernie Merrick quoted on the National programme lamenting the arbitrary restrictions FFA has imposed on the Phoenix. He said obviously the team play in an Australian competition and has to abide by their rules but it was "ridiculous" that the Phoenix weren't allowed to play home games in the new FFA Cup competition and qualify for the ACL if they win the A League.

It's something I too think is unfair and shouldn't be in place. Imagine if ACFC was not allowed to go to the Fifa Club World Cup, even if it won the O League championship, because that was to be kept for a Pacific Island team?

It's bad enough you're not allowed to play in the A League reserve competition, and NZers are restricted as imports in Australia, but the other restrictions heaped on the Nix are bordering on insulting. Either you're a fully paid up member of the A League or you're not. The Phoenix's NZ investors provide decent livelihoods to many contracted Australian players at the Phoenix, so why this unfair shake of the stick in return? It doesn't happen anywhere else in world football as far as I know.

I agree with Ernie, it's ridiculous. What do you hard core Phoenix supporters think?

Its obviously bureaucratically nonsensical.

But there you go.

WHo has hacked BM's account?

Are you a hardcore Phoenix supporter yourself BM?

I also understand that Australian A League sides can call on any of their NYL players if need be effectively giving them a squad of 39 to choose from but the Phoenix are only allowed to call reserve players into the main team if they're already in the original 23 player squad.

Crikey, how many more arbitrary restrictions does FFA put on the Nix? It simply isn't a level playing field.

Can you imagine if the English Premier League imposed these rules on Swansea. Sure you can win the EPL boyo but you can't be in the European Champions League or even the Europa League.

Your own coach raised the issue on National Radio this evening old boy.

It seems quite deliberate and cynical to me. Is this a case that everyone knows it's wrong but no-one wants to talk openly about it for fear of antagonizing FFA?

It is all part of the original (and ongoing, renewable) permission given by the AFC to the team from another federation to play in an AFC league.

The exemption is based on the fact that Phoenix are classified as an Australian club located in New Zealand, but clearly not 100%....

With the demise of Bin Hamman (who used to bag us constantly) this may be resolved one day to our advantage, if FFA continues to bat for us, since FIFA hasno problem with us. This quote is (via Wikipedia) from a Sepp Blatter interview with Les Murray on SBS TV in 2008:

"It is not the matter of the Confederation, it is the matter of the FIFA Executive Committee... If Wellington will go on play on in Australian League, then as long as Australian league wants to have them and Wellington wants to stay (and) Both association in this case, New Zealand Soccer and Australian Football are happy with that, then we will give them the blessing. The Confederation can not interfere with that."

No, I've always made clear where my football allegiances are but I also watch Phoenix games and take an interest in NZ's only fully professional club. I even cheer when you win A League games, you might like to know. I'm asking serious questions here because I'd like to know what you guys think.

Are you saying these restrictions are imposed by the AFC and FFA reluctantly goes along or does FFA actually like them and uses the AFC to impose them thus deflecting any cross Tasman sense of injustice?

Are you really sure FFA is batting for the Phoenix on this or are they just paying lip service?

All I can say (and others may comment to the contrary) is that I am sure that while the 'Nix remains financially stable and does not require a financial legup from the FFA, it will stay in the A-League. 

This is despite all the usual nonsense spouted by the uninformed idiots on message boards over in the West Island who who say things like "why do we need a NZ team and we can't get Canberra or Townsville or (insert a name here) to have a team?"

The answer is that FFA runs the league on a franchise business model, so a club needs to be financially stable. Those "other" clubs did not have financial stability, while Phoenix either makes money or the owners do not feel they are losing more than it is acceptable to them.

It probably does not answer your question, but then I actually do not know if it was "AFC" or just "Bin Hamman" who was the problem. I do not think the FFA are the problem, as they simply want stable, viable clubs. Phoenix is not taking a spot away from any other viable club, and provides a valid, serious competition to other teams (sure, we have our good and bad years, like everybody else).

We get a rank deal. Can't qualify for AFC as we're based in NZ, can't qualify for OFC as we're based in a aussie comp. Bluddy shambles.

The reserve team debacle is a farce really. And to think we never really heard a peep about it while Herbert was coach.  I seriously hope we can win the league or FFA cup, because then it'll raise a storm when the 'best' A-league team can't play in the Champs league. 

AFC corrupt as FIFA?

We have never needed to be 'bailed' out by the FFA. Multiple other clubs that still exist now have been in the past. 

The other, massive reason why we're in the A-league and most likely always will be? Television rights. The extra broadcaster in Sky does in fact bring in a fair amount of coin for the FFA.

I agree with Ernie, it is ridiculous. The FFA appear to just spend most of their days making up shitty new rules as well as not addressing shitty old rules...

Yeh its a joke. The FFA are just scared. The Nix might become a juggernaut that they can't contain. 

You are right, we are second class citizens but over time the situation is improving.

Some of it is historical, when Aussie were newly in the AFC they were less keen to rock the boat and as the confederation wasn't keen on OFC team in AFC comps the FFA went along with that.  I think that stance has softened with Bin Hamman going so over time some of it may improve.

We do have the benefit that NZers are not foreigners for us, and neither are Aussies.  So that's an advantage.  It is definitely though a problem if we were able to enter the AFC Champions League because all our kiwis would be foreigners - they'd maybe have to change the rules specifically for us.  So there is a proper issue there that's still to be resolved even if we were eligible.

Why we don't get home games in the FFA cup is beyond me, but we are guests in that competition so I guess that's the price we pay.  One additional overseas trip per A-League club is really not a big deal.  Better to be fighting that fight from inside the tent though than outside it.

I bet if you do win the A League in the next two seasons, and I hope you do, and then the reality crashes in that you can't compete in the ACL, all hell will break loose with plenty of Nix supporters. I certainly hope so because I know I'd be up in arms if arbitrary restrictions were ever placed on ACFC by Oceania.

I think it may take that happening for the issue to become prominent.  At the moment it's all theoretical so means people don't care that much.  I'd be super pissed though, I agree

I get your point but maybe the Phoenix have been too quick in the past to accept these restrictions placed upon you and so FFA see you as a soft touch. I think it's time Welnix kicked up a fuss. After all you're employing plenty of Australian players. Reading between the lines of Ernie's public stance I think he thinks so too.

I think we were at first reallly, really happy just to have a club- and then we do get the NZ player rule exemption, which the Aussies don't. The Youth league came up A LOT when Ricki was here. But the club couldn't find a way past it. 

The FSE comes out of an attempt to have a NZ based Phoenix set up. Not ideal, but a work around, like most things in NZ football are!

Question - would we prefer a nix team that qualifies for the ACL and gets home fixtures, but has to count NZ players as imports? Because surely that would be the tradeoff if it ever happens. And I for one would not take that deal.

I'm afraid the light at the end of the tunnel could be an oncoming train....

There are close ties between the Bahrain FA, the Asian Football Confederation and FIFA.

Unfortunately, the President of the Bahrain FA is also President of AFC (since May last year) and on FIFA's Executive Committee.

Salman bin Ibrahim Al-Khalifa is the most powerful man in Asian football, a relative of the King of Bahrain, King Hamad:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salman_Bin_Ibrahim_Al...

Now we've poached Bahrain's national coach, any resentment felt by Sheikh Salman Bin Ibrahim could prove detrimental to the Phoenix.

He seems to be quite ruthless and has been accused of involvement in human rights violations:

http://www.insideworldfootball.com/world-football/...

http://www.insideworldfootball.com/world-football/...

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-a...

If we did qualify for the ACL, kiwis would count as imports in that competition. I doubt we'd be able to field a team or at the very least our squad for it would be paper thin 

I think it is about time the Oceania confederation got swallowed up by the Asian confederation. It would solve so many issues at local league through to A League levels. There'd be no excuses for the FFA to block us from playing in the Asian Champions League should we qualify for it.

Just the way the FFA have gone shy over the Wee Mac business says a lot to me. If the PFA supported Macs situation, you can be sure the FFA have studied it and could have made a clear cut ruling one way or other. but like the Fan section thing, the crap website thing, that shitty Reebok deal thing, the FFA come across as being third world in their way of thinking.

I'd love to see the Nix win the A League if only to cause some squeaky bums on seats at the FFA.

OFC will never be disestablished to join AFC

You guys are all missing Bluemagic's agenda. He wants us to be angry and dissatisfied with the FFA's treatment of the Nix because he wants the Nix gone altogether and he wants us to give up on the project. Those Aussies won't give our club a fair shake? Well, screw 'em! Let's all get in behind the ASBP, coalface football, etc!

Don't forget this guy's got one agenda - to make the NZ national league the be-all and end-all.

Do I take it from the replies that The Phoenix are the misfit which just has to accept whatever FFA/AFC dish out in order to be able to field a team in the A League and not have NZers branded as imports. As the McGlinchey saga highlights, FFA doesn't really like us but knows NZ provides an extra market of 4.5 million potential viewers to the all-important TV marketing of the A League. 

So if the Phoenix want their A League license renewed in 2016 then they have to keep their head down, accept whatever arbitary restrictions are imposed on them and not complain. With a member of the despotic Bahrain royal family heading AFC now it's even more imperative to keep below the Asian radar - is that it? If so then I understand, even though like Ernie, I think it's ridiculous.

I think it's imperative we stay in Oceania now and that Oceania not become part of the Asian Football Confederation in any shape or form.

You're wrong Doloras, although I can see where your paranoia comes from. I completely separate this from the domestic national league and don't want to see the end of the Phoenix. I think the Nix are currently good for NZ football although I would like to see a more robust ASBP. I'm just wondering, like your own coach, why the Phoenix have to put up with things no other club has to. If the end justify the means then so be it.

There's an old truism - you're only treated how you allow yourself to be treated. The question is, have the Nix ever really tested the water of standing up to the FFA/AFC and saying you want a fairer shake of the stick? I bet it's discussed behind closed doors at Welnix.

In fairness to what you say Doloras, all this does make me suspicious of just how much FFA really does support the Phoenix. The current FFA footdragging over the McGlinchey saga clearly irritates Ernie Merrick and most probably Welnix. So yes, I think we're foolish to neglect our own national league because in the end it may well be all we have left. It would be a shame, particularly in light of what the current Phoenix are doing in developing young NZ talent, but it's a distinct reality.

Yeah, right. Calling for the end of the Phoenix has been your raison d'être on this forum as long as you've been here. You and your buddies alireggae and "happyted" or whatever his name is who got banned. You've been ginning up the nonsense "rivalry" with ACFC - perhaps because no-one can touch Trillian Trust FC in the actual National League and you get bored, which is why your own forum died.

I wouldn't agree with exactly everything you said there, but that's the slightly negatively biased gist of it, as I see it.  But that doesn't mean noises aren't being made (Ernie being the most obvious sign of that) and efforts behind the scenes aren't happening.  But the AFC issue is a challenge.  Oceania into Asia is already a stretch.   

Some of the other restrictions on us are, imvho, just a case of aussies having other priorities, so we need to advocate hard, but also  the issues are not as simple as people would like to think.  The cost of a Nix side in the youth/reserves competition would be significant in airfares and accomodation.  That's both for aussie sides that would have to travel here and the cost is probably also big factor in Welnix's thinking.  Obviously we would need to stump for that every second week.  Plus player costs.  Through a change of ownership and a couple of years with an owner with his own receivership to worry about, we've not progressed that stuff much in the last three years.  But I'd say with Welnix having reached their conclusions on what is best and worked with NZF for a NZ based solution, the noises Ernie is now making are for compensating adjustments to the regulations.  You progress a step at a time.  

+ I dare say that the aussies have their own challenges growing the game in Aus and while a NZ team in the league is helpful financially for them it would not be so good from an aussie marketing perspective if the Nix dominated aussie sides.  Just look at what australian basketball did to the Breakers when they got too successful - a couple of rules got changed to the Breakers disadvantage.  Same old aussies, looking after themselves.  Everybody fights their corner and we are clearly in a slightly weaker position doing so.

We get to be there only because we offer them a bigger TV market and the aussie vs kiwi thing is probably seen as a useful marketing addition.  Other than that I would say they don't want to be unreasonable, but we aren't their first concern either.  Anything more we get will be the result of careful lobbying, advocating for a fair deal, and a fair bit of proactive work on our part.

There's just no getting past the paranoia with some of you.

I think you're right and the Breakers are a worthy point. But the Breakers and Warriors still aren't subjected to the same level of arbitrary restrictions that the Nix are put under. In fact I don't think the Warriors face any. I think it's really interesting that Ernie has come out publicly with his frustration at FFA footdragging over McGlinchey and the lack of FFA home games. This could be the start of more advocating for a fairer deal. I doubt he'd do this without at least Welix's blessing.

All this has wide implications and involves the AFC now headed by a Bahraini who probably hates our guts after stealing Hudson.

The Phoenix didn't steal Hudson though? I think anyone who is involved in football knows enough to know that national Football Associations aren't run by the professional clubs in the country.

I'm not so sure on that. If the Bahrainis are pi**ed at NZF (which they possibly/probably are) and wanted to stick the boot in, it wouldn't take too much for them to work out that as the only pro team in NZ, the Phoenix are pretty critical to NZF. So when they see the contract extension come across the desk of the AFC... well, who knows...

You  as a " huge ACFC fan " would of course , know this as a fact ....

There was an article with a direct quote from Blatter who said AFC have no say in the Phoenix future with the A-League, and that FIFA would support any move from FFA to extend a contract. Im pretty sure if it were up to AFC - we wouldn't exist today. That Qatari POS hated us.

Just the way I see it, from a background somewhat familiar with getting things done in challenging reasonably large multi-interested-party governance environments.  

NRL is financially stronger in Aus I would think, though you would think football is closing the gap, and the Warriors have proven themselves to be mid-table fodder that are entertaining but only threatened once in ten years and did the decent thing and collapsed in the final.   But yes, it's interesting they seemingly are financially strong enough to do the full scale reserve side thing across Aus/NZ. But I think they use the NZ competition for their third level development side? Not sure about the last bit. Basketball in Aus probably fairly desperately needed another financially strong club to get their competition up in size and NZ is lucky to have the brilliant supporters that the Breakers have.

But the Breakers and Warriors do not have the FIFA confederation complication affecting player eligibility.  And that is the remaining big deal once we sort out the best reserve side solution.  We play in a big international game and that brings those added complications.

By comparison, rugby has the whole SANZAR politics and that means they get a dumb competition that does not even have everybody playing everybody else, because of the conflicting ambitions of the countries about the number of teams they want to get in the competition.  

So compared to that rugby issue, FIFA is an even bigger beast with many more countries and powerful personalities involved.  So you can only imagine the goings on.

Things take time when you are dealing at the big table and there are a lot of different interests that need to be reconciled and/or bludgeoned into submission.  Plus I think we stalled through the last couple of years of Terry and the year of Welnix coming on board, so a lot of things that might have got sorted are still getting addressed.  But it seems good progress is happening with NZF and Ernie is leading with his chin on the next issues to get fixed.  You do work behind the scenes but making a bit of embarrassing noise now and then can help.

With FIFA and FA we are probably turning up with a popgun, as NZ often does internationally, so we'll be appealing to equity, fairness, blah blah blah to make progress.  And we'll have to do most of the heavy lifting raising issues and proposing solutions ourselves to move things ahead.

But we got a team in the A league and are building on that so, go Welnix.

Hopefully that Bahraini doesn't become a thorn in our side, but we are a year or two away from winning the league and forcing that issue methinks and have plenty to sort out in the meantime.  There may be an opportunity to do the guy a favour at FIFA level between now and then.

I thought the rumours were that Hudson was head hunted but in actual fact he quit and applied, the rumours were that he also applied for the nix so it seems like he was looking to leave Bahrain for at least a year.

I still reckon the best way forward is for the OFC and AFC to do a deal for the OFC's half a world cup spot to be put into the final stage of Asian qualifying. Then AFC nations would know they'd never have to playoff against south or central American opposition again. As part of the deal OFC players could count as AFC players for the purposes of ACL squad restrictions. Basically an MOU which closely affiliates AFC with OFC without merging the two. For age group,women's and club world cups the qualification pathways could remain separate. And realistically, the ACL player restricition changes wouldn't have much impact at all outside allowing the Phoenix to enter the comp and maybe a handful of island players to get pro gigs in Asia.

I think that deal would benefit both parties. Whether FIFA regs would allow it, I don't know...