I would not think so Term because then it would need to be the same for all clubs. It would just be a 'some weeks you'll get good times, others your wont'
Swings and roundabouts..
The thing that has been overlooked in the discussion recently is that the scheduling of the game has NOTHING to do with getting a big crowd at the game. It is all about increasing the TV audience in Australia. 2:30pm on a Sunday afternoon in Australia was not a ratings winner. This is an attempt to improve that. I know we do not like the time slot, but life deals us bum hands sometime.
Tell them they're dreaming if they think that a Sunday 5pm kickoff (Aus time) will get heaps more audience than a 2.30pm kickoff. Perhaps the reason that the audience is low because one of the teams isn't Australian (taking away a large chunk of Australian audience) and the Phoenix last season wasn't (lets face it) the most attractive team to watch (ruling out a large chunk of neutrals).
I just don't buy that there'll be a huge chunk of Strayans who couldn't be @rsed watching a Nix game at 2.30 but will jump at the chance at 5.
1. I'm confident you don't know more about it than FOX do.
2. What do you put the time change down to then? If not TV scheduling?
I don't at all doubt that's why they did it. I do highly doubt though that it will make any significant change to the TV audience. Better playing style by the nix = yes. Change in time = I doubt it.
Of course the later it is on telly the more viewers it gets.
Seen many Rugby games kickoff at 2:30 recently? Why do you think an "early game" of Rugby is scheduled at 5:30 on a Weekend?
Games are not played later in the day because the Crowd enjoy going to watch in the evening, it is solely for the TV rights holders benefit, although of course a number do like the later games, perhaps just not on a Sunday.
We may not like it, but TV calling the shots in this instance.
Of course if we played attractive football and were not last etc etc, we would have more chance of it not being us getting that shitty time slot
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Regardless of teams who are playing, the schedule for Sundays are the same.
2 games = kick offs at 3pm and 5pm Sydney time. 1 game = kick off at 5pm.
Our 7pm Sunday kick offs are the result of being the only game on that day, because Fox Sports wants its 5pm game.
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To say this city will never be able to support a football .team if they dont turn out on a sunday at that time is wrong.
Why is it wrong? Like Greenie said, the city's hardly supporting the club right now, and we haven't even had any 7pm Sunday kickoffs yet. Without the rich guys prepared to lose a bit of money in the short-term the club would have crashed and burned right now.
And that situation will persist as long as attendance at the games is seen as a matter of convenience rather than active support. And that is the big challenge for the owners at the moment.
But that's exactly it - the big challenge for Welnix right now is how to get from 5,000 hardcore fans who always turn up to 10,000 hardcore fans who always turn up. Of course it can be done (so I don't think we need to be quite so fatalistic about how "this city will never be able to support a football team") but I'll bet you anything you like that having more games at 7pm on a Sunday is not, or will ever be, part of the Welnix plan to do it.
This debate isn't even about the hardcore 5,000 (and sure, that group may include a few whingers who have a sense of self-entitlement) it's about the next group of 10,000 - 15,000 "casuals" who only go to every 2nd or 3rd game and who need to be enticed to go to them all. Playing at 7pm on Sunday is not going to convert any of those people.
This isn't a pissing contest. It isn't about finding out who the most hardcore fan is, or rhetoric about whether Wellington "deserves" a football team. It should be about a slow, thoughtful, strategy to build a fanbase around a team. Playing on Sunday at 7pm has no part in that strategy. If it's forced on us, so be it. But people are right to be concerned about it.
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This debate isn't even about the hardcore 5,000 (and sure, that group may include a few whingers who have a sense of self-entitlement) it's about the next group of 10,000 - 15,000 "casuals" who only go to every 2nd or 3rd game and who need to be enticed to go to them all.
Right. So we are back to "total football" and winning again.
Ernie and Greenie - Top 4 position and home fortress record by 22 Dec please.
"Phoenix till they lose"
Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion.
Genuine opinion: FTFFA
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This debate isn't even about the hardcore 5,000 (and sure, that group may include a few whingers who have a sense of self-entitlement) it's about the next group of 10,000 - 15,000 "casuals" who only go to every 2nd or 3rd game and who need to be enticed to go to them all.
Right. So we are back to "total football" and winning again.
Ernie and Greenie - Top 4 position and home fortress record by 22 Dec please.
Yes and no. Winning should certainly help to mitigate against the Sunday night games being a big wash-out. But regardless of whether we are winning it will be interesting to see how the Sunday night crowds stack up against the other days/times. If the average crowd is lower on a Sunday night that's still lost fans/revenue for Welnix.
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This debate isn't even about the hardcore 5,000 (and sure, that group may include a few whingers who have a sense of self-entitlement) it's about the next group of 10,000 - 15,000 "casuals" who only go to every 2nd or 3rd game and who need to be enticed to go to them all.
Right. So we are back to "total football" and winning again.
Ernie and Greenie - Top 4 position and home fortress record by 22 Dec please.
home fortress?
All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight
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No disagreement from me.
But if we take the view that the 7 pm time slot was not Welnix's first choice (maybe their Hobson's choice), then the hook for the next 10-15k tranch of supporters is our winning record and (possibly) our super, attractive football (in that order).
And of course the weather.
We certainly can't count on face painting and bouncy castles for these games.
"Phoenix till they lose"
Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion.
Genuine opinion: FTFFA
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This debate isn't even about the hardcore 5,000 (and sure, that group may include a few whingers who have a sense of self-entitlement) it's about the next group of 10,000 - 15,000 "casuals" who only go to every 2nd or 3rd game and who need to be enticed to go to them all.
Right. So we are back to "total football" and winning again.
Ernie and Greenie - Top 4 position and home fortress record by 22 Dec please.
home fortress?
I have heard of this phrase before. It sounded good.
"Phoenix till they lose"
Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion.
Genuine opinion: FTFFA
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This debate isn't even about the hardcore 5,000 (and sure, that group may include a few whingers who have a sense of self-entitlement) it's about the next group of 10,000 - 15,000 "casuals" who only go to every 2nd or 3rd game and who need to be enticed to go to them all.
Right. So we are back to "total football" and winning again.
Ernie and Greenie - Top 4 position and home fortress record by 22 Dec please.
home fortress?
I have heard of this phrase before. It sounded good.
Disagree. The phrase "home fortress" is a big part of the problem. Sounds too unwelcoming. Casual fans to don't want to have to swim across a moat full of crocodiles and possibly have boiling oil poured on their heads just to get into the stadium.
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You're thinking of home castle.
They would only have to negotiate a wooden structure with a few sharpened stakes. Piece of p!ss if you are a native American Indian.
Edit: "Home fortress? Suck on that General Dis-Custard. This is how we big horn it mate."
"Phoenix till they lose"
Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion.
Genuine opinion: FTFFA
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And as an aside. I went to the Harlem Globetrotters thing on Monday night. 7.30pm start (it actually started a bit after that), 9.45pm finish. TSB arena about 80-85% full (guessing around 3,000 people). An absolute army of kids attending, some of them as young as 3-years old. And hundreds of them stayed courtside to get the autographs well after I left the Arena around quarter to ten.
So excuse my scepticism that no family in Wellington would ever even entertain the idea of attending a football game kicking off at 7pm on a Sunday in the middle of summer holidays.
One off opportunity to see the Harlem Globetrotters though. It would be like if Manchester United played an exhibition game at the stadium at 7pm on a Sunday. It would still sell out.
And the Phoenix play Sunday 7pm games every week?
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No but they play 10 times a year. Compared with the Harlem globe trotters who play here once every 10 years at a guess.
Allegedly
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This isn't a pissing contest. It isn't about finding out who the most hardcore fan is, or rhetoric about whether Wellington "deserves" a football team. It should be about a slow, thoughtful, strategy to build a fanbase around a team. Playing on Sunday at 7pm has no part in that strategy. If it's forced on us, so be it. But people are right to be concerned about it.
If we're talking about rhetoric, then this is a pretty cheap, populist example of it. If we are serious about having a professional team in this city, we have to get to the point where kickoff times do not matter. People have to care about going to watch the Phoenix play, and not make that decision based on when the game starts. That does require a strategic plan, but not one based on cheap populism and screaming high murder everything something that a portion of fans don't like happens.
I fear this could be a losing battle, and the sense of entitlement and whining from a good portion of the fan base is certainly not helping.
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No but they play 10 times a year. Compared with the Harlem globe trotters who play here once every 10 years at a guess.
So you're saying that people will go to some games and not others? How's that really different to any other season?
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So you're inferring that 7pm sunday time slots will actually increase attendance at other time slots?
I think some people may do that yeah, if they say they only ever go to one or two games specifically a season, theyre likely to just choose a night with a better time for them. Nothing lost, nothing gained.
However I imagine a lot also decide on an individual basis. In which case, they'd see the time as inconvenient and say 'ah well maybe I'll go another time, theyre on 9 more times this year. In which case that is a loss. When they make a comparison with a side that plays here once every 10 years however, they'll think its inconvenient, but then weigh it up with the fact it'll be another 10 years until they can see them again - if ever.
Allegedly
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This isn't a pissing contest. It isn't about finding out who the most hardcore fan is, or rhetoric about whether Wellington "deserves" a football team. It should be about a slow, thoughtful, strategy to build a fanbase around a team. Playing on Sunday at 7pm has no part in that strategy. If it's forced on us, so be it. But people are right to be concerned about it.
If we're talking about rhetoric, then this is a pretty cheap, populist example of it. If we are serious about having a professional team in this city, we have to get to the point where kickoff times do not matter. People have to care about going to watch the Phoenix play, and not make that decision based on when the game starts. That does require a strategic plan, but not one based on cheap populism and screaming high murder everything something that a portion of fans don't like happens.
I fear this could be a losing battle, and the sense of entitlement and whining from a good portion of the fan base is certainly not helping.
I enjoy playing football. I enjoy playing football a lot on a Saturday avo. Not so much at the random times we have these days like 7pm sat night or 8pm Wednesday. I'd prefer to be doing other stuff ( possibly cutting shapes at electric ave). With the changes in the game brought on by turf I don't feel I am entitled to sat avo games, but I will be avoiding games at other times if possible. The end
End of the day Sunday night is pants for getting on the gas
Founder
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This isn't a pissing contest. It isn't about finding out who the most hardcore fan is, or rhetoric about whether Wellington "deserves" a football team. It should be about a slow, thoughtful, strategy to build a fanbase around a team. Playing on Sunday at 7pm has no part in that strategy. If it's forced on us, so be it. But people are right to be concerned about it.
If we're talking about rhetoric, then this is a pretty cheap, populist example of it. If we are serious about having a professional team in this city, we have to get to the point where kickoff times do not matter. People have to care about going to watch the Phoenix play, and not make that decision based on when the game starts. That does require a strategic plan, but not one based on cheap populism and screaming high murder everything something that a portion of fans don't like happens.
I fear this could be a losing battle, and the sense of entitlement and whining from a good portion of the fan base is certainly not helping.
Is that really necessary if we simply just not have terrible kick off times?
We will never get to a point where kickoff times don't matter. There isn't the population for it, nor the culture (especially with so many people having Sky), and there is a lot of competition with other sports - if one sport starts having 7pm kickoff times, sport fans will just spend their money going to watch another sport that is at a more acceptable time to them.
It's not so much a sense of entitlement or whining, as it is a genuine concern for what the crowd numbers will be for these games. I'm expressing my concern and on a personal level the kickoff time doesn't overly bother me.
As you suggest, a culture for kickoff times like this could theoretically be developed. But it'd require times like this to be the norm for a long time across a number of sports, not just the Phoenix. Even if this did happen, it'd still hurt crowds a lot in the short term.
It'd be interesting to see if the Hurricanes, for example, played a game at 7pm on a sunday, to see what the crowd turns out to be, and how that stacks up against your assertion that not getting a crowd for that kickoff time = not being able to sustain a team. I'd suggest the crowd would be poor for them too, and you can hardly say the Hurricanes aren't sustainable as a team (even if they do suck). On the other hand, you could be right and they'd get 20k to the game regardless. It'd be interesting.
Allegedly
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Can anyone point to games in the A league that have started at 7 on a sunday in Aussie.Not finals either.
GET YOUR SHIRTS OFF FOR THE BOYS
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can't kids stay up one night a month to go to a game of football? A couple of games are in school holidays so that shouldn't be a problem at all. I remember being about 10 years old and being taken to the Wellington XI vs QPR game at the Basin reserve, which a quick google search shows me was a Tuesday night and probably kicked off at about 8pm. I turned out ok (although I had to repeat that year at intermediate).
I saw Stoke City at the Basin Reserve (1973, Sunday night in May). I think it f*cked me for life but we were hard in those days.
Anyway I do agree that it shouldn't matter, but it will be the parents who make the call. If my kids were younger it would be a line call.
"Phoenix till they lose"
Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion.
Genuine opinion: FTFFA
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This isn't a pissing contest. It isn't about finding out who the most hardcore fan is, or rhetoric about whether Wellington "deserves" a football team. It should be about a slow, thoughtful, strategy to build a fanbase around a team. Playing on Sunday at 7pm has no part in that strategy. If it's forced on us, so be it. But people are right to be concerned about it.
If we're talking about rhetoric, then this is a pretty cheap, populist example of it. If we are serious about having a professional team in this city, we have to get to the point where kickoff times do not matter. People have to care about going to watch the Phoenix play, and not make that decision based on when the game starts. That does require a strategic plan, but not one based on cheap populism and screaming high murder everything something that a portion of fans don't like happens.
I fear this could be a losing battle, and the sense of entitlement and whining from a good portion of the fan base is certainly not helping.
I think the key point there El G is that "we have to get to the point where kick off times don't matter". I agree 100%, but we're not anywhere near that point yet.
I don't know why you keep going on about "self-entitlement and whining". The people doing that are sufficiently engaged with the Phoenix that most of them are going to turn up anyway, so they aren't really relevant to the discussion. The people we should be worried about don't have any sense of self-entitlement at all, because they don't even consider themselves Phoenix fans yet. It's these people the Nix needs to be reaching out to with an appealing product which in my opinion shouldn't include Sunday 7 pm kick-offs if at all possible.
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As Tegal said, how would the Hurricanes go at 7pm Sunday...
I can answer that because no NZ team plays their games at home on a Sunday evening because...... *drumroll* it's a shit time slot.
In fact, I'm tring to think of any team that plays Sunday evening in NZ. Not the Breakers or Warriors, pretty sure ANZ Netball teams don't, Super 15 do not. I guess there is a reason for it.
As Smithy said, this is FOX, FOX and FOX. They will give two blind fucks about shit crowds in Wellington because they are paying the bill and in their world, viewers, not turns style clicks, are what counts.
As an aside to this E G, do you think Sunday 7pm slots will attract more/less/the same crowd?
Grumpy old bastard alert
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Yes I have zero doubt they have played Sunday but have they played Sunday 7pm?
Interesting re: netball. Playing devils advocate, is that because its the only slots left open to them after the 16 league and rugby games?
Grumpy old bastard alert
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Netball played indoors in arena's of 2-3000.
Supporter For Ever - Keep The Faith - Foundation Member - Never Lets FAX Get In The Way Of A Good Yarn
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So we all agree that 7pm kick offs are entirely designed to make money (through TV). Here's some pretty good discussion on exactly why this needs to be avoided from Simon Barnes in the Times which articulates my position far better than I ever could. There is no doubt in my mind that playing at 7pm Sunday makes a Phoenix match, in his words, "slightly less great".
"Money is actually pretty useful stuff. You can do a lot of good things with money. You can buy me a drink, you can save the rainforest, you can send my nephew, Luke Sellers, out to Africa with the charity Cricket Without Boundaries to coach cricket and foster AIDS awareness.
Money is morally neutral. It is not the root of all evil, but love of the stuff brings more evil into the world than most things.
And money is sport’s eternal problem. Sport wasn’t invented to make money, sport was invented to bring joy. Which it does, despite everything, for the people who watch and the people who play. The first people to play sport didn’t demand money and no one takes up a sport to get rich. The money comes later: later in history, later in every sporting biography.
It’s about priorities. Should the power people in sport seek to make great sport? Or should they try to make as much money as possible? There is a catch in this question because great sport tends to make great money.
But then comes the next question: should you go with the scheme that makes sport slightly less great, but makes quite a lot more money? Classic example, the chief executive’s wicket: piles of runs, labouring bowlers, second-rate cricket — but hell, it brings in five full days of revenue, so it’s a no-brainer, right? Actually wrong.
And this is a principle that can be found across sport.
Tournaments that last for endless weeks with endless dull and meaningless matches, golf at the Olympic Games, perverse television-friendly scheduling (the US Open in tennis), too many competitions, too many matches, distorting sports for television (the penalty shoot-out), forcing top players to play too much, and on and on.
It’s then a small step into corruption. If money matters so much, if it’s sport’s duty to make money, if sport’s raison d’être is money, if sport really is nothing more than another business, another money-opp, then you are duty bound to help yourself. Are you not?
A sporting administrator’s job is to use money to create great sport. Alas, all over the world, they get it precisely the wrong way round. And lose the sport, lose the joy."
Normo's coming home
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Nothing on the box tonight. Is this likely tonight?
Auckland will rise once more
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In The Zone V63 is out now. Check it out at yellowfever.podomatic.com & Itunes bit.ly/YFZone
This week the Pod outlines plans for Fever Party Bus V2, chats to Andy Smith and Giovani Fernandes from the APFA after becoming an official youth development partner of Wellington Phoenix FC?, and chuckles at Harry Kewell's predictable return to the Hyundai A-League?. The return of the international segment covers New Zealand A again Jordon, Australia's precarious qualification position, and the latest from CONCACAF. While locally, big names bow out of the Chatham Cup? in Round 2.
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The Fever Bus is coming!
Yays or Oh Noes! (I am yet to decide which one it will be!)
"Ive just re-visited this and once again realised that C-Diddy is a genius - a drunk, Newcastle bred disgrace - but a genius." - Hard News, 11:39am 4th June 2009
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Did Dale forget Spoonley was at the Nix or did he just word it badly?
Founder
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Brockie was replaced by Koevermans, another striker. He has been out for the last year or so with a knee injury. They have a couple week gap in fixtures and their next reserve game to be played on artificial turf, it was the only chance for him to get some game time under his belt. It still was strange for Brockie to be subbed, as Nelsen probably should have taken off a winger and pushed Brockie over. Still wouldn't have stopped the defensive stuff up that let the union score.
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NZ Football need this cat in the office. Dura would be a Kiwi in no time.
If only NZF had some way to make time go backwards like in the gif...
Jeez some people gotta ruin the fun. You suck.
Edit - I do a good enough job of making myself look like an idiot without you assisting.
End of an era. Vinnie - It's over.
If anyone cares for my inane babbling follow @iluvnix17 on the Twitter.
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NZ Football need this cat in the office. Dura would be a Kiwi in no time.
If only NZF had some way to make time go backwards like in the gif...
Jeez some people gotta ruin the fun. You suck.
Edit - I do a good enough job of making myself look like an idiot without you assisting.
Twas an attempt at a gag, apologies.
Yellow Fever - Misery loves company
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And while I'm at it - boxey no CL club is going to check the weekly schedule that the home team is in fact wearing their home kit - it's taken as a given. If you think clubs have time to scour over every piece of crap that comes across their desk then think again. It's the friggin minor leagues not the EPL.
Founder
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