Phoenix Ownership - Rob says FTFFA

Points 1 and 2 are controllable, point 3 well we are trying to play more attractive football (whatever that may be) - do aesthetics supersede results? And even if we are playing aesthetically pleasing football relative to the HAL and even winning, how much does the overall squads lower ability, compared to top 5 Euro leagues, affect the product on offer? I'm sure there may be some the Phoenix can't sway purely on this basis.

Parking and public transport, Nix will need to work better with the regional council/public transport providers and the stadium. Though with parking deals for season ticket holders, not sure what can be done for others and not sure how many parks are available if discounted heavily and demand increases to match.

The 'Nix get through to the next time Sky have to renew the HAL licence, and whoever gets the licence in NZ from then has a bit more skin in the game and look to get a better return on their investment and do more promotion.

???? Citation needed. The RoF is the best-served sports venue in the country for PT, probably even better than Eden Park.

Perhaps another issue is that so many football fans in Wellington are expat Brits, who judge everything as "shite" or "pish" compared to their fond memories of Back Home.

I know. I am assuming "EPL snobs"  don't read the Yellow Fever forum.

But then LeighboNZ came along and stuffed that theory up!

However, even LeighboNZ mentions supporting Dover Athletic, who are definitely a lower standard than the Nix.

So did you used to go and watch Dover LeighboNZ? If so, what's the difference between supporting an EPL team and doing that, and supporting an EPL team and watching the Nix?

Not having a go, genuinely interested (don't think you're a snob by the way, just short-hand for people who like football, watch the EPL but aren't interested in going to watch the Nix).

Considering the stadium is near the business and parliament ends of town there should be plenty of free city parking around on a sunday night for the game. I've never had an issue parking around the end of featherston st by the stadium.

Ive asked this question many times myself. I have worked with 2 people in particular over the last 2 years, 1 a Spurs fan who was heavily involved in wellington girls football development, and another who supports Sunderland, who has a son who plays both football and futsal (futsal at rep level) - but neither of them ever supported the Nix, maybe went to about 2-3 games between them during the time we worked together. And i never even got an answer from them why they would never bother.

You can park for $5 reasonably close too if you don't mind walking 5-10 minutes - the Wilson parking building in Stout Street for instance is where I parked on Sunday.

Only lived there as a 10 year old so that meant sod all to me regarding pre-conceived ideas.

No citation needed. Ever tried to get a kid who needs the bathroom along the concourse, onto a train (without toilets) that won't wait, that stops at EVERY stop and then still have a drive home?

More accessible parking means a shorter walk, the carpark generally clears quickly and traffic is low flow once onto the urban motorway.

Best served just highlights the poor infrastructure in place at most of our venues.

The 'Nix should have a 'match day' page on their website highlighting how to get to the ground/parking/public transport deals/what can be brought into the stadium/chants link to YF etc. and on/just before match days getting this info out there again in social media. 

Though parking is a luxury and pretty good in and around the ROF compared to football stadiums around the world.

Because it's easy to get a great atmosphere of a ground like The Crabble with room for about 6000. You'd be surprised at the level although I have only been to 2 or 3 games as an adult in the early 2000's when I was back over there for 6 month (I think I jinxed them and they got relegated from conference).

double post. Opps

Well why would they want to see their team losing live when they can do that in the comfort of their home?

Yeah, that's what I think would make a big difference is a stadium better suited for football and not as big as ROF. 

So is it just an atmosphere issue then? You also mention the travel in another post but that would also be a problem with many EPL grounds. I've been to lots and they aren't all easy to get to.

I've also watched a decent amount of Conference football myself back in the 90s and I'm not convinced the standard is anywhere near the A-League.

Still not quite understanding why the Nix would be so far off the radar for some people.

You're a long way from the game in the stadium, the atmosphere is rubbish apart from the hard work of the YF and the football and franchise just feels...forced...I find it hard to explain why I'm not a follower but there are plenty of aspects that could make a big difference. People talk about parking etc...I've got no problem $30 parking, public transport or walking on bloodied stumps for something I truly want to see, but again, this isn't about regular attendees, it's about making it as easy for the part-timers as possible because like it or not, they hold the future of the club in their hands. Remember, it's not a fan here that is already sold on the 'Nix. I'm an admitted fence sitter as to whether I care or not and those are the things that would make a difference to me. As to why I'm here? LFC thread, Fantasy NFL thread and anything Premiership related...I'll take my silver spoon and sod off.

NZ is not a football culture. For more than a few, its a game for poofs that are soft where they all hollywood and kiss each other.

Relaxing and getting pissed in the sun is though but that's hard to do when you beer round requires a mortgage and the team you've come to watch got their moves from Benny Hill.

Fair enough. Out of interest, have you ever attended a Nix game with a 10k + crowd which, for me, is when the atmosphere starts to feel a bit more like it (including any of the play-off games when its been pumping)? Have there been games when you've thought "yeah" rather than "nah"?

YF, doing Nix qual research since ages ago.

Off the top of my head I'd guess that aside form ABs tests and the 7s the only events which have got more than 30,000 in at the RoF in the last 12 months were both football - the WC qual vs Mexico and the Football United double header. Even accounting for travelling fans there's obviously plenty of people in Wellington who will attend football games under the right circumstances but who don't regularly go to the Nix. There must be some way to connect with them?

Even as it stands our average attendance is more than the Lions but less than the Hurricanes, but not substantially less. Considering that Super Rugby is the best "club" rugby competition in the world, and in theory this is a rugby-mad country, quality of product on show actually might not make much of a difference to crowd sizes. Winning obviously will, but outside of that maybe the key is the sense of occassion. Phoenix games need to generate that more perhaps. How, I'm not so sure...

Yup, certainly been to the odd game where I've thought, this is fun...only to be let down the following few home games. The question is, for those 10k+ weekends, what went right? Why did we get those numbers?

Didn't exceed 10k last season (13-14), once the season before (12-13 was 12k) which was first game of the season on the back of 4th and decent finals campaign the season before. The season before (11-12) that cracked 13k twice (rd 19 and 21), I think there may have been some promotions as well as the Nix winning 4 in a row (3 of which were in Oz, rd19 was 3rd win on the trot and rd21 we lost).

Pretty sure the 12k in the first round of 12-13 was ADP's first HAL game. Probably a big factor.

there was a 14k vs Adelaide in season 1 where anyone who bought a ticket to the Galaxy game got a free ticket to the Adelaide game. 

My theory:

Football becomes an experience when a big crowd makes the effort. A big crowd which just sits there isn't much better than a mid-size crowd with a large "active support" base.

New Zealand doesn't have the culture of "making an effort" in sports fandom. There is a strong culture of treating people who jump about and shout as lunatics, troublemakers or poofs. (I'll never forget that look of stony hatred on the Indian fellow who don't me to sit down and shut up at one NHS game).) We are expected to just sit there and cheer when our team scores. Sometimes we hold up banners if we're feeling like daredevils.

Leighbo likes going to see Dover Athletic (who, I'll assume, aren't even a full-time team) because 6000 people turn up and make an effort.  I'll bet dollars to donuts that the Nix could play Dover off the park; but 6000 Dubrovnians chanting and singing make the difference.The only way that your average Kiwi punter will do that for a round-ball team is if they're owning the Aussies on a weekly basis and they want to copy those cool kids in the YF.

I note that no-one else has picked up on Leighbo's use of the terms "forced" and "franchise". As a Wombles supporter, I wouldn't call my worst enemy a "Franchise" if he was molesting my cat; but I get what he means. WPNX est. 2007 - no "roots in the community".

So, right now, the YF are composed of those people who're prepared to come and support a "franchise" team with "forced" roots (i.e. those constructed in the last 7 years from bits and pieces of other fandoms) in a big empty stadium while hostile rugbyheads look at you like you're wearing a NAMBLA t-shirt. They are the hard core. And they won't accumulate a following around them without big wins. And that following won't attract people used to overseas footballing culture - like Leighbo - until it feels more like a "community" thing rather than a "few dozen maniacs" thing.

Tl:dr; chicken. Egg.

Actually 18,345

There is some correlation between ppg and crowds:

yep mostly has an effect at the end of the season. A few graphs in the crowds thread (or maybe it's earlier this one?)

Copy and paste from last year - 'I have a really good idea about getting crowds back - it's called winning games'. And I think we have the squad to do it. No-one I've run into has said otherwise after watching last Sunday night. 

I mentioned this ages ago the same sense of bewilderment, when I got on the train for the last AW's match at the stadium and was gobsmacked by the amount of people getting on the train all in AW gear who I'd never seen at a Nix match.

The EPL , La Liga, etc brigade is easy. You can come across as knowing a lot about football and supporting a cool team by putting no effort into it whatsoever. 

Think about it. You can strut about in your replica Barca/Arsenal top. You get all your information from the internet on how a team performed and what tactics, formation was used. You can then repeat this as if it was your own to your mates at work. 

I know a guy at work who is like this. Goes on about "the spurs" and knows f*all about the sport, even though he plays for an amateur team. The only time he is interested in the Nix was when they are in the play offs or the Football United tour. Then he is keen to get cheap tickets. In fact I know several people like this. One guy regularly goes to Europe and goes to places like the Nou Camp and always makes sure he gets to see a big team but has not been to a live Nix match for 3 or 4 years.

We need to be asking these people, who would take in 3-4 matches a season back in 2007-2009 why they don't go now and what would make them go?

It's just all to easy for kiwi's to go "nahhh I'll  give it a miss today", (done it myself), and sit at home with cheap beer, not needing to herd the kids anywhere and watch it on the telly. It requires no effort. It's not even about winning so much, it's just going to a large sporting event is too much hassle when Sky and New World can meet all your needs without you having to leave the house. 

Also lets face it. The Ring of fire, even though I love it is a piss poor football venue. Unless you have Steve Austin like vision it's a bit rubbish and that's why we've actually enjoyed some of the smaller venues on the road trips.

If you know people like those above you need to be asking them why they no longer go to matches. Maybe someone can come up with a survey monkey? I'll look into later myself if no one else wants to.

The most common reason people have given me for not going is quality.

This.

Honestly. I got home and there was 107 new posts in this thread, and I read everyone of them. If you got back theough the last 4 or 5 pages there are "This!'s" by BWTCF left, right and centre.

This has been one of the best threads/discussions I have ever read on these forums. So much constructive debate. So many varied points of view, ideas, and contributions, and most of it without flame wars.

Smithy, Dale, News etc. Please make sure we draw the last 5 or 6 pages of this thread to the attention of of the club. Not all of it is right, not all of it is doable. But it is a must read IMHO.

I honestly believe that Terminator X is bang on. The nut that needs to be cracked is that huge latent football interested population - that plays and/or watches football on TV, that comes to the All Whites games, and the Football united games, and FILLS Westpac for those, but DOESN'T come to the Nix.

The BIG question is "Why?".

Answer that, and change the answer and we'll have 10,000 season ticket holders and crowds of 12 - 17,000. 

THAT is where the answer lies.

I think the targeted research that Termy mentions is absolutely required. We need to figure out why those people come to the All Whites Games, come to Football United, come to the Nix when they are in the playoffs, but won't commit and invest in the club?

What are the barriers to them buying in and committing?

Whatever the hell the answers are, they need to be embraced to break those barriers down.

Funnily enough, for me I find it hard to support a team in England or the rest of Europe when I have absolutely no connection to them at all. Neither of my parents nor any of my grandparents were into football, I've never lived in Europe, and there's no obvious reason to support any team. I kind of follow Inter because I did as a kid but I'd be lying if I said they really meant much to me. The other club I supported as a kid I grew to hate when I got a bit older and learnt more about them and their fans (not naming names, not important for my point). The Nix, on the other hand, are in my backyard. I see the players in my local supermarket. They represent my city and I van go to games and see them live and get emotionally invested in them. The fact that are only a few years old doesn't put me off - it excites me. The legends are being written, not recited. Maybe I'm unusual for feeling this way but I'm sure I'm not the only one?

feel exactly the same way CT. 

That is exactly how I feel. I tried to support Leeds as a kid, but there was nothing really there and after the Nix came along I realised that there was no way I could claim a team from somewhere I'd only visited when I was 10. All of those clubs with 100 years of history were once anonymous little teams with no gravitas behind their name. I was at the birth of a team from my city, playing professional football, and that was and is very exciting to me. The Lancastrian factory workers of the 1880s may not be remembered by name in their clubs' histories, but without them those histories would not exist today. We are part of the history, in fact a proportionally bigger part than a fan going to the games of a 130 year old club.

Edit: I would like to add something of a defence to ex-pats who don't get behind the Nix. It might not even so much be the history of their hometown club they care about, it might be the history of the town and their family and what that means to them. My first ancestors in NZ arrived in Wellington in January 1840. If you include my great-great grandfather, who was born on the boat and had his birth registered in Wellington, I am in the sixth consecutive generation to be born in and spend most of my life in the Wellington region. Wellington is my home in a way I imagine it is for a lot of Leodensians who support Leeds United, or Dubrovnians that support Dover Athletic. If they move to New Zealand, it might not really be the lack of history behind the Nix, it might be the lack of connection to Wellington that they feel they need to get behind the team, whether they know it or not.

I just noticed the new headline from Domey. The answer is easy David, give us a winning team and fans will come out. It isn'tr rocket science. And if you think moving to Auckland is going to get you 10k crowds every week, well all I can say to that is can I have some of what you are smoking?You have a proven history with the Knights and the Kingz that Aucklanders are just the same as us. They come out to a winning team only. One off games are not a guarantee of a regular decent turnout.

Get a winning team!

Also to those twits whom are EPL addicts or still living on the memories of Bobby Charlton and Bobby Moore - take a nice big reality pill and wake the hell up. This is the A League, it might be 10 years old but it is still in it's infancey. I might be wrong but I bet those of you who think like this are not regular attendees at Westpac. Probably arm chair fans slagging every touch off. Try being positive, proactive and get down to Westpac and get behind the team. Obviously Man United fans are not used to supporting a struggling team, but make the effort and come down and watch. Stand up to be counted.

Sadly, for Phoenix and football fans, the only long-term way that crowds will be increased to the level Welnix want/expect is the Phoenix winning consistently and featuring in the top four for most of the season and qualifying for home play-offs.
The Warriors and the Breakers highlight the nature of people living in NZ to follow success and events. The Warriors have a surge in attendance when they put together a winning sequence The Breakers had a huge increase in support after they won their championship, maintained that level with a three-peat, then shedded support with a losing season.
A short-term tactic to increase support would be to sign an ageing EPL player on a marquee basis. A couple of years ago I was amazed by the amount of interest that was generated amongst my friends by Emile Heskey playing in Wellington compared to their lack of interest in Del Piero    

Feel the same CT,that is the reason i havnt missed a game in Wellington.The chance to get behind a Wellington team and hopefully be a part of the journey in creating something lasting.Its also the reason i get pissed off with the Welnix guys at times when they make their stupid statements about taking it away.How they expect people to buy into the hype when you hear continually them talking about taking it away.

We get told all the time about the growing football community in Wellington yet we dont see that backed up with attendance at games.Its those people we need to start attending games,pointing the finger at so called casuals expecting them to turn up when so called football supporters dont is  a waste of time.The person who solves that problem should get lifetime membership.