Private Football Academies
Normo's coming home
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Thought this might be a good topic for the off season.
What are people's thoughts/experiences with Private fee paying football academies.
I think there are a number of factors that make me very suspicious.
Running a private football academy is always going to be a controversial business.
How do you make money? People paying fees to train and attend on the basis that they can make a career out of the game.
Why then do you have scholars (and almost all do)? Well a cynic would say that you recruit the best players who probably would have made it anyway, Once they succeed you trumpet their success as a result of their work at the academy and then get more fee paying kids. Inevitably the ones who pay fees are the least likely to go on to professional contracts. That creates a tension between attracting players to generate fee income and objectively assessing players likelihood of earning a living from the game (of which history would tell you there are few in NZ).
At least with a club academy you know that you are there because they think you're worth investing in. As you cost the club money to train you in their programme they won't spend money on you if they don't think it's worthwhile.
Kiwis have been getting into the US College system for years without help from private academies. We've also had a number of kids get into youth programmes in Europe, usually off the back of U17 and U20 World Cups. Young guys feature in NZFC sides every week. None of that is extraordinary. To validate programmes I think you need a critical mass of players coming through to the AWs and making a livelihood at professional. Or you actively target US colleges.
Interested to hear other views - maybe on value for money aspects as well
Normo's coming home
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Targeting Rufer here by chance? disco_mart2012-04-12 03:01:06
Supporter world's best and worst football teams: Waikato/WaiBop, Kingz, Knights, Phoenix, The Argyle, The Whites & the All Whites
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No not at all - and there are loads of other private academies doing the same thing. i have actually heard some "interesting" things about our own Ricki Herbert's academy...but interested to hear what others have to say.
The latest one to surface in the media is actually the APFA one in Chch
james dean2012-04-12 04:54:48Normo's coming home
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Private academies are there mostly for one thing, to make money for the owners.
Are they are helpful in developing players abilities yes but by training everyday with a club you will also get better (whether you will improve as much is debatable).
They are basically a business and like any other they need to make profit and as you point out get a few players to make it then you get more business.
Are they are helpful in developing players abilities yes but by training everyday with a club you will also get better (whether you will improve as much is debatable).
They are basically a business and like any other they need to make profit and as you point out get a few players to make it then you get more business.
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The APFA one says it's non-profit.
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The APFA one says it's non-profit.
Yeah I'm interested in that. It has costs but no income - so is it philanthropic or is there a plan to break even in the future? I can't see how it stays "free" forever...non-profit can just mean you take your fees out above the line rather than below it
Normo's coming home
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You can pay to go there but I know of a few guys from my school who got scholarships for it.
Probably just means everything they make goes back into the academy, not the owner.
Probably just means everything they make goes back into the academy, not the owner.
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You can pay to go there but I know of a few guys from my school who got scholarships for it.
Probably just means everything they make goes back into the academy, not the owner.
Probably just means everything they make goes back into the academy, not the owner.
I can hardly believe that the APFA is funded solely from fees, especially if they aren't even charging some of their participants.
There's no mention of what the fees are on their website though, so who knows? In fact, there's very little information on how they are funded or what kind of legal entity they are on their website at all.
Ole Academy definitely relies heavily on community trust funding. Wouldn't be surprised to find that's the case here also.
Is that a good use of pokie money?
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Anything that gets kids more involved in the game and looking to develop their skills more gets my support. If that means mum and dad are paying $X a year/month/session for the perk sweet as. It's no different to parents paying to put their kids in scouts or cadets etc to learn discipline or other skills while getting them out of the house.
Random question, do the academies (club or independent) need NZF or federation approval/certification?
gings2012-04-12 18:48:56
Random question, do the academies (club or independent) need NZF or federation approval/certification?
gings2012-04-12 18:48:56
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A good subject
I have no problem with them. If nz football were doing the job then they wouldn't exist. Obviously they are not
There is a market and no doubt if they were poor academies they would die
I also wouldn't guarantee that ricki will shoulder tap the best 8 young ones for the Phoenix and besides you need 11 players for an all white team
If my child had potential then I wouldn't hesitate to pay someone to realize it
AucklandPhoenix2012-04-12 19:05:10
I have no problem with them. If nz football were doing the job then they wouldn't exist. Obviously they are not
There is a market and no doubt if they were poor academies they would die
I also wouldn't guarantee that ricki will shoulder tap the best 8 young ones for the Phoenix and besides you need 11 players for an all white team
If my child had potential then I wouldn't hesitate to pay someone to realize it
AucklandPhoenix2012-04-12 19:05:10
Auckland will rise once more
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I have no problem with them. If nz football were doing the job then they wouldn't exist. Obviously they are not
Jeez, if you've ever been to a CF info evening all you hear is "why is CF offering coaching? All CF should be doing is the draw every week, blah blah blah".
OK, that's a slight exaggeration but there's plenty of people who think that NZF should cut costs to participants by staying out of "non core" activity like coaching.
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NZF's Whole of Football Plan has just established Federation Talent Centres - effectively football "academies" that supposedly provide a pathway to national age teams for the cream of the crop. If this makes for technically better footballers and improve the game - great - AND THAT IS PART OF NZ FOOTBALL'S ROLE, VIA THEIR FEDERATIONS; but it's a long term game so we couldn't really judge it for 5-10 years IMO.
Judging from the fees I've heard bandied around these contribute significant income to the federations.
Apparently NZF is in the process of setting up an accreditation system for the private academies - APFA, Ole, Wynnrs, Ricki Herbert, Shane Rufer etc etc; which of course those businesses may or may not choose to pursue.
Regardless (private or "official"), they all rely on parents paying in the hope of that elusive professional contract - the dream.
Judging from the fees I've heard bandied around these contribute significant income to the federations.
Apparently NZF is in the process of setting up an accreditation system for the private academies - APFA, Ole, Wynnrs, Ricki Herbert, Shane Rufer etc etc; which of course those businesses may or may not choose to pursue.
Regardless (private or "official"), they all rely on parents paying in the hope of that elusive professional contract - the dream.
Kotahitanga. We are one.
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The thing I would focus on as a parent is actually the quality of the coaching that you're receiving.
Who out of the coaches in the various academies has coached at or within a professional set-up? For example, one of the coaches at the Ricki Herbert academy is his son who is 22. The other is another young guy from Auckland who seems to have played a bit of National league football.Now they may be decent coaches, but without any experience in a professional setup I struggle to see how either is in a position to judge which players have the ability to go on to professional football.
This applies equally to Federation or NZF academies as well.
Normo's coming home
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The thing I would focus on as a parent�is actually the quality of the coaching that you're receiving.�
�
Who out of the coaches in the various academies has coached at or within a professional set-up?� For example, one of the coaches at the Ricki Herbert academy is his son who is 22.� The other is another young guy from Auckland who seems to have played a bit of National league football.Now they may be decent coaches, but without any experience in a professional setup I struggle to see how either is in a position to judge which players have the ability to go on to professional football.
�
This applies equally to Federation or NZF academies as well.
I think one of the NZ Football Talent Centre coaches in Nelson will be Nelson Suburbs player/coach Ben Wright. Ben is 31 years-old and has played at the highest level in Norway and in league one and two in England. Also scored against Chelsea in a Champions League game. So he has at least PLAYED at a professional level and in a professional setup.Luis Garcia2012-04-12 23:26:07
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The thing I would focus on as a parent is actually the quality of the coaching that you're receiving.
Who out of the coaches in the various academies has coached at or within a professional set-up? For example, one of the coaches at the Ricki Herbert academy is his son who is 22. The other is another young guy from Auckland who seems to have played a bit of National league football.Now they may be decent coaches, but without any experience in a professional setup I struggle to see how either is in a position to judge which players have the ability to go on to professional football.
This applies equally to Federation or NZF academies as well.
I think one of the NZ Football Talent Centre coaches in Nelson will be Nelson Suburbs player/coach Ben Wright. Ben is 31 years-old and has played at the highest level in Norway and in league one and two in England. Also scored against Chelsea in a Champions League game. So he has at least PLAYED at a professional level and in a professional setup.
Is he actually any good?
If so has anyone from Canterbury/Wellington or even the Nix appraoched him to play/coach etc?
Supporter world's best and worst football teams: Waikato/WaiBop, Kingz, Knights, Phoenix, The Argyle, The Whites & the All Whites
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The thing I would focus on as a parent is actually the quality of the coaching that you're receiving.
Who out of the coaches in the various academies has coached at or within a professional set-up? For example, one of the coaches at the Ricki Herbert academy is his son who is 22. The other is another young guy from Auckland who seems to have played a bit of National league football.Now they may be decent coaches, but without any experience in a professional setup I struggle to see how either is in a position to judge which players have the ability to go on to professional football.
This applies equally to Federation or NZF academies as well.
This also raises the question....does being an experianced ex pro footballer necessasily make you a good coach?. Obviously having played the game at a good level would help but there are plenty of great coaches who did not play at a high level.
For example there seems to be an automatic assumption that Greenie should move into coaching at the Nix...probably with the academy. He is a good pro footballer who has a B license however how do we know he will be a good coach? He appears to have had very little coaching experiance. Logic would suggest that there are plenty of guys who have experiance coaching NZ sides at FIFA age tournaments who have a far greater knowlegde of NZ youth football and would do a great job.
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surely for Greenie to get his b coaching certification he'd have to have shown some ability to coach? Fifa aren't exactly handing them out at parties are they? And to be fair, is there any other coaches in the NZ setup with the same certification?
Queenslander 3x a year.
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surely for Greenie to get his b coaching certification he'd have to have shown some ability to coach? Fifa aren't exactly handing them out at parties are they? And to be fair, is there any other coaches in the NZ setup with the same certification?
True
However if the club has a coaching position I would hope they would be professional and advertise the job. What would happen if say the likes of a Mulvey??? the GC youth guy applied? You don't know whats out there until you advertise.
If after they have interviewed the applicants they decide that Greenie is the best then thats fine by me. Otherwise it just looks like "jobs for the boys". You really need to appoint the best if you want your organisation to progress.
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Given greenie has probably already interviewd and is technically on the roster as a coach and player there shouldn't be san issue with his getting just a full time job as a coach. If there was another role going then I'd expect it to be advertised.
Queenslander 3x a year.
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zinidane - i agree 100%. I would also add that coaching and developing youth players is v different from coaching seniors
Normo's coming home
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surely for Greenie to get his b coaching certification he'd have to have shown some ability to coach? Fifa aren't exactly handing them out at parties are they? And to be fair, is there any other coaches in the NZ setup with the same certification?
True
However if the club has a coaching position I would hope they would be professional and advertise the job. What would happen if say the likes of a Mulvey??? the GC youth guy applied? You don't know whats out there until you advertise.
If after they have interviewed the applicants they decide that Greenie is the best then thats fine by me. Otherwise it just looks like "jobs for the boys". You really need to appoint the best if you want your organisation to progress.
They did advertise the job on seek and trade me earlier this year.
http://www.radiolive.co.nz/Wellington-Phoenix-assistant-coach-role-advertised-on-Trade-Me/tabid/506/articleID/25460/Default.aspx
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Undoubtedly though - there are some great things being done. At the risk out brown nosing I point to Smithy and 2nd bests tornadoes programme which is run in with completely transparent goals and gives plenty of opportunities to the kids without making any outlandish promises.
Normo's coming home
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I totally disagree with the whole "ex pro player = top coach". I've seen top ex players struggle to effectively coach 10 year olds.
It's that sort of negative logic which sees young kiwi coaches lose out to foreign older coaches for no real reason. It's like "he's Brazilian, he must be a good player!" or "He's a pom, he must know the game"
Speaking as a young coach it is hard to gain traction in the game due to age, despite the fact I've been coaching for years. I've turned up to pre tournament coaches meetings and had the typical older coach in the corner make a crack along the lines of "Sorry kid, this isn't a players meeting!" - Joke was on him when we put 5 past them the next day
It's that sort of negative logic which sees young kiwi coaches lose out to foreign older coaches for no real reason. It's like "he's Brazilian, he must be a good player!" or "He's a pom, he must know the game"
Speaking as a young coach it is hard to gain traction in the game due to age, despite the fact I've been coaching for years. I've turned up to pre tournament coaches meetings and had the typical older coach in the corner make a crack along the lines of "Sorry kid, this isn't a players meeting!" - Joke was on him when we put 5 past them the next day
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'sorry kid this isn't a players meeting'
without knowing anyone involved that kind of thing really grates me, so glad your lads spanked his!
without knowing anyone involved that kind of thing really grates me, so glad your lads spanked his!
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The thing I would focus on as a parent�is actually the quality of the coaching that you're receiving.�
I think one of the NZ Football Talent Centre coaches in Nelson will be Nelson Suburbs player/coach Ben Wright. Ben is 31 years-old and has played at the highest level in Norway and in league one and two in England. Also scored against Chelsea in a Champions League game. So he has at least PLAYED at a professional level and in a professional setup.
�
Who out of the coaches in the various academies has coached at or within a professional set-up?� For example, one of the coaches at the Ricki Herbert academy is his son who is 22.� The other is another young guy from Auckland who seems to have played a bit of National league football.Now they may be decent coaches, but without any experience in a professional setup I struggle to see how either is in a position to judge which players have the ability to go on to professional football.
�
This applies equally to Federation or NZF academies as well.
�
Is he actually any good?�
�
If so has anyone from Canterbury/Wellington or even the Nix appraoched him to play/coach etc?
I think injuries have called a day on his playing aspirations. He's a target man that has a pretty good finish. He plays well with Gagame Feni alongside him. But coaching Nelson Suburbs looks to be his first real coaching gig. So he's kind of in that transition. I have heard Canterbury had been sniffing around, but fingers crossed he stays in Nelson for the next two years anyway.
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surely for Greenie to get his b coaching certification he'd have to have shown some ability to coach? Fifa aren't exactly handing them out at parties are they? And to be fair, is there any other coaches in the NZ setup with the same certification?
True
However if the club has a coaching position I would hope they would be professional and advertise the job. What would happen if say the likes of a Mulvey??? the GC youth guy applied? You don't know whats out there until you advertise.
If after they have interviewed the applicants they decide that Greenie is the best then thats fine by me. Otherwise it just looks like "jobs for the boys". You really need to appoint the best if you want your organisation to progress.
They did advertise the job on seek and trade me earlier this year.
http://www.radiolive.co.nz/Wellington-Phoenix-assistant-coach-role-advertised-on-Trade-Me/tabid/506/articleID/25460/Default.aspx
If Greenacre was being brought in from the outside I'd be more inclined to agree with JD and Zinidane.
Qualifications are an important part of the picture, but so is the fact that Greenacre is a known quantity at the Phoenix. Knowing that someone will fit into the culture is a huge factor when recruiting.
Ricki Herbert is also qualified up the wazoo, so should be in a good position to judge whether a candidate has the goods from that perspective or not.
The fact is, Ricki likes to run a tight ship and puts a lot of weight on attributes like loyalty. If he thinks Greenacre fits the bill then that's who he'll appoint.
Anyway, this is probably a tangent from the discussion of private academies.
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surely for Greenie to get his b coaching certification he'd have to have shown some ability to coach? Fifa aren't exactly handing them out at parties are they? And to be fair, is there any other coaches in the NZ setup with the same certification?
True
However if the club has a coaching position I would hope they would be professional and advertise the job. What would happen if say the likes of a Mulvey??? the GC youth guy applied? You don't know whats out there until you advertise.
If after they have interviewed the applicants they decide that Greenie is the best then thats fine by me. Otherwise it just looks like "jobs for the boys". You really need to appoint the best if you want your organisation to progress.
They did advertise the job on seek and trade me earlier this year.
http://www.radiolive.co.nz/Wellington-Phoenix-assistant-coach-role-advertised-on-Trade-Me/tabid/506/articleID/25460/Default.aspx
I think you will find this is the assistant coach job. Greenie can't do this job because A-League regulations say you have to have an A licence to be an A-league assistant coach...Greenie only has a B licence. That is why the club keeps saying "we would like to find a role somewhere for Greenacre"
From my understanding the club will at some stage in the off season announce who has got the advertised assistants role.
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ok so who in NZ has an 'A' licence? if there is such a person then I'd hope they'd get a good look in, my understanding is that Ricki is one of a very few that hold their 'A' licence and coach in NZ - he may be the only one?theprof2012-04-20 11:12:30
Queenslander 3x a year.
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ok so who in NZ has an 'A' licence? if there is such a person then I'd hope they'd get a good look in, my understanding is that Ricki is one of a very few that hold their 'A' licence and coach in NZ - he may be the only one?
He has UEFA's pro licence. The highest coaching qualification in UEFA. The A and B licence are lower coaching licences.
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ok, so who holds an 'A' licence in NZ then?
Queenslander 3x a year.
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And how do the UEFA licenses relate to NZ?:
And how does NZ relate to Oceania?:
And how does UEFA relate to Oceania? (they look the same but are they?).
Do any of these licenses have a publicly available register of license holders?
Do they get a certificate, or a badge, or a special hat?
As a parent enrolling my child in a coaching course, or a potential employer of a coach, how do I know they have the qualifications they say they have?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_managers_and_coaches_who_have_qualified_for_the_UEFA_Pro_Licence#Coaching_diplomas
I'm currently looking at a way to do my UEFA/american/asian coaching quals online as they seem to hold more sway both locally and overseas. the NZ quals are really only valid here...even Australia ignore them largely
I'm currently looking at a way to do my UEFA/american/asian coaching quals online as they seem to hold more sway both locally and overseas. the NZ quals are really only valid here...even Australia ignore them largely
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Yeah can't get NZ licence recognised in AUs or anywhere else.
UEFA, FFA > NZ
UEFA, FFA > NZ
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Yeah can't get NZ licence recognised in AUs or anywhere else.
UEFA, FFA > NZ
2B, you probably know more about this stuff than most - isn't it the case that if you've played at pro level you pretty much get the UEFA B licence without having to do anything? Or you get skipped a big part of the course?UEFA, FFA > NZ
Normo's coming home
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Not sure about that sorry. It think your ability to get accepted into a course is much easier if you played at a high level.
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And how does NZ relate to Oceania?:
IIRC Senior level 3 is equivalent to level b OFC
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Yeah can't get NZ licence recognised in AUs or anywhere else.
UEFA, FFA > NZ
2B, you probably know more about this stuff than most - isn't it the case that if you've played at pro level you pretty much get the UEFA B licence without having to do anything? Or you get skipped a big part of the course?
UEFA, FFA > NZ
During my research on the UEFA badges it appears that having played at a satisfactory level allows you to skip certain modules, thus making it easier to get.
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Yeah can't get NZ licence recognised in AUs or anywhere else.
UEFA, FFA > NZ
2B, you probably know more about this stuff than most - isn't it the case that if you've played at pro level you pretty much get the UEFA B licence without having to do anything? Or you get skipped a big part of the course?
UEFA, FFA > NZ
During my research on the UEFA badges it appears that having played at a satisfactory level allows you to skip certain modules, thus making it easier to get.
So don't get too excited about UEFA B
Normo's coming home
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