R25 vs Adelaide Sunday 30th 3pm

Just a selection for you only support winners out their 

Well its true isn't it? We are in a spoon race. On the other hand if we win our remaining 2 games and a few results go our way we sneak into the playoffs...that'd take a minor miracle though!

Ummm... that post of mine was from this time last year Blew.

Every player starting on Sunday has a deal into next season except Steyn and Timmins.  Our backups have shown up as not being good enough, we lose and the fan base says it's ok, they're only backups.  Not sure I agree with the logic.

I mean Lia, Manny, Hernandez, Steyn, Cunningham, Moss, Dura, Siggy and Brockie played on Sunday.  Forget who is missing, that was basically our pre-season locked in core team right there.  

We have lots of pretty bad players playing currently so it's not surprising that we're a pretty bad team.  

BTW - where does Muscat get in the team next year?  We really jumped the gun re-signing him.  He is bordering on thuggish

Yeah, that's scary. You have to wonder about some of our re-signings. It does seem like a chance for a bit of a clearout has been missed. I can only imagine that Ernie's gambling on young players improving and breaking into the first team, making some of those old timers into bench warmers. If Ridenton, Rufer, Boyd, Fenton, Caira, Brindell-South and even Adams develop well then we might have quite a different starting lineup by the end of next year. That's a hell of a gamble though. Fenton, Boyd and maybe Caira are the only ones who might start in a full strength team at the moment.

I don't think it's Ernie gambling, think it's more of a reflection of the mandate he's been given by Welnix - build a squad on the cheap focused on Kiwi youth and try to make them compete for a top 6 spot. Not exactly inspiring.

I'm not sure what your point is Blew2? 

I'm there every week just like you. I'm frustrated that we're so shit, and I'd like to watch a winning team. But I'm there anyway, watching, just like you.

If you're happy with what you're seeing then that's awesome. I wish I was drinking your Kool Aid to be honest.

If you're trying to say that I'm some sort of sub-standard supporter then you're a fool. Because I do my bit, and have done for years and years and years. I'm perfectly entitled to be frustrated that after the Worst Season Ever (last season) we looked really promising for a bit this year but have actually ended up with Second Worst Season Ever. 

Don't make the mistake of thinking that handing out a few programmes at the gate makes you superior to me. If you want to trade volunteer war stories I've definitely got a few to chuck in there. 

The bit of your post I don't get is the shirt photo at the end. Someone explain that to me?

Teflon Ernie?

Again: its 'social work' (says GM).

Ernie does have to take responsibilty with the resigning of players. 

As much as it pains me the senior players are not of a sufficient standard to warrant resigning. It was time to let them go 2 seasons ago.

No supporter is any better than the person next to them. That some of us have been there for most, if not all the games just shows that on current form, we are glutens for punishment. Should we are happy when we are winning and pissed off when we are not. In true traditional fashion, if we are going to go down, we like to see our team go down literally fighting. I think this is also Siggies ethos.

I keep referring to it but that bus trip to Napier showed to me, heart and soul that Nix fans are a loyal bunch there through thick and thin but still retaining tbeir sense of humour. Sometimes it is very dry, others it is very cynical, but it still exists. I love it.

I think Blew thinks he's in the RBB.

Muscat is still probably our best LB (maybe even RB too but Fenton and Boxall are decent there)

By signing Muscat and Lia is the team improving?

Wow. I never thought I would see this forum question the signing of Muscat.

People really do have short memories.

Its not about the past, it is about the present and the future. We all have our favourite players but we have to accept that they are not getting any younger and they are getting a little slower. We can thank them for their past efforts for sure but there cimes a time when a day has to be called.

So despite being solid at LB and RB this year, he is still rubbish?

I think people are judging his whole season on how he has gone in the DM role. Hence the short memory comment. Its much the same for Lia. He has played well when he has not been a DM but apparently its a rubbish season from him.

It lacks objectivity.

Pffffft Lia and objectivity.... Since when do they get mentioned in the same post!

JV - for me its about signing players that would improve the team. Ive seen Muscat for a few years now and dont believe his signing will improve the team and or he will improve further. Manny is good at more than one position, maybe not master.

We all dream of signing a team of superstars. Unfortunately a Salary Cap and owners who will not sign a marquee preclude that. 

We dont want superstars we want competent footballers.  Lia, objectively speaking, honks like a field of geese.

I'm with SJ on this. Because of the salary cap, you have to pick your poison around certain positions.

For us, we can choose to dump Lia and Muscat and sign upgrades or as you put Dino 'masters of their position' but in doing that, all you are doing is taking from one hand and putting in the other. We sign replacements for those two whom are upgrades, and theoretically cost more than this gun striker we speak of getting with Ifill + Stein salary does not happen cause you have had to pay extra elsewhere. Can you see how this works?

The keys to this league are

1: Developing your own players. Sign them as youth on 3 year deals and develop the shit out of them. Yes they may go elsewhere but if they are cheap and do a job, you have money for elsewhere. You can probably get away with another 2 year deal at improved terms but still at a reasonable salary level unless they are a flat out superstar. The Phoenix have just started that last year and this year so its only starting to show some benefit (Boyd and Ridenton, Fenton injury aside) CCM have built their club on this.

2: Find imports that are cheap. This is a little more tricky because then you get guys that are aging and can't get a deal in their own league. Thus you become a retirement league. You need to avoid this or you get Emile Heskey.

3: Find players that you know will do a job, balanced out with what they are paid and keeping them knowing the devil you have, rather than the one you do not. Muscat is the type of player that if we were to release him, I reckon at least 4 other teams would want him at a minimum and he would play decent minutes in those teams as well.

Where we are handicapped.

1: We don't have a youth league to be able to pick the cream of the youth. We kinda have to pick the best of what we have from the various environments.

2: Imports coming to NZ are going to chose AU first. Ifill was almost at CCM. I understood Stein was recommended to come here. Where did we get Smith from. Its not easy to get imports to NZ. Ricki had that problem and the DM signing we were touted to have never arrived (and we got Riera)

3: Aussies don't want to come here and the ones that do, you have to pay over the going rate to do so. What was it that Ernie said last year that he had a couple of players lined up but they wanted more to come here that the club could not justify.

I'm not saying its perfect, and I'm not saying the Phoenix have got it right but when you are in a salary capped league, its bloody easy to say lets toss Leo, Lochhead, Lia, Muscat but in some of those cases, you are better off having them because you know exactly what you are getting vs taking a punt (should we go through that list?). The end result is that there may not be the ability to improve. I note that some folk have noted that because of the amount of signings we have on the books for next year, there is no chance for improvement. Do they think good cheap players grow on trees and are beating a path to the Phoenix en masse? Yes we have to look and there is up to 5 spots to do so measured up against the available cap space we have left so its not all doom and gloom but some of these issues have been issues for a long while in the history of an NZ team in the NSL/HAL.

Ok, who in the A League at the moment would you have in a Central Midfield role . 

Once you have that list start then ask will they come to Wellington, Can we afford them, 

Already your list will be very small, but perhaps cast the net wider? Then ask how many midfielders have come to the A league and played in midfield for any club that have been much use? Then ask Will they come to Wellington , Can we afford them.

You will then probably say Riera has been great and was found locally yes you are right but he really is that one in a thousand find, like an Ifill. Only the most ardent ACFC fans will tell you they knew he was a "dead cert".

But nahh I guess it is much easier to say he just honks 

Jeff, I know we will never, ever agree on Lia:)  In fact, there are times when I think either you or I live in a weird parallel world and watch a different Phoenix, and a different Lia.  Your one who's "reliable and durable", and my one who is very shite...

Guess quite a few of us live in a weird parallel world then, huh? Where we give players the benefit of the doubt, try and constructively criticise when it's warranted and and praise where it's due, rather than hating on them no matter what they do. Takes all sorts.

Oh Jaggy Pulease, you big softy.  I've long given up listing my criticisms of Lia in structured cohesive fashion.  Jeff is probably overly familiar with them I'm sure....

Like I said, takes all sorts. :-)

10-4.  Group Hug time :)

I'm Scottish, I don't do hugs.

A wise man said to me the other day that "attracting A League players to Wellington is really hard. You have to pay them more than they're worth."

Another wise man said to me at lunch that Brisbane (as an example) have the same sort of issues with squad depth as we do. Lots of kids etc. I didn't argue because I don't have the same memory for players and squads that this sage fellow does. 

But I've checked, and I don't think that's right...

By my count, our squad has (in rough terms) 10 kids (players under 23) out of 25 players (40%). Brisbane's has 7 out of 35 (20%).*

*Sauce: Wikipedia and some really quick counting/maths.

Good post JV.

I think the thing I'd add is that in a salary capped league versatility is a great attribute for a player because it means you can cover injuries and allow your manager to play a variety of tactics. For that reason I'm happy to re-sign Muscat because he can play as a fullback on either side and a DM as well, at least to a generally adequate level. Lia on the other hand has only looked decent in one role. That's why I've questioned his re-signing before - but i understand the "better the devil you know" argument.