Split from the Scholarship thread.

If Football isnt a mainstream spot to the media then we dont need the Phoenix to raise its profile because the media are'nt interested in it is that what your saying? 

no not quite, i guess morwe what i was trying to say is that the nzfc will not be a mainstream domestic sport competition in nz for the media to follow. so the phoenix while not playing in a nz mainstream comp are in a good position to do something in terms of raising profile for the game. case and point has to be the backham game, an nzfc team would never be in a position to hold that game while the phoenix are and if you are going to try and tell me that, that weekend wasnt good for the profile of the game then your not willing to compromise.

Barely anyone knew/knows wtf the NZFC is.

But they know who the Nix are.

/thread

I have said in previous posts that is was fantastic and yes you are right a NZFC club would be unable to put something like that on but i hope one day to see 8 Phoenix's playin in an NZ league
it easy so that will never happen? but then whose being negative then?
And again not wanting to be negative but while the Galaxy game was great exposure for our game what was the result? They lost 3 days after Sydney beat them i know it was just a friendly but there was still that oh yeah it was great day but we still lost feel to it

mate rugby cant even support a proffesional domestic competition ( the npc) so sure as hell football is a long way from it.

My point exactly!!!!

[QUOTE=

Someone mentions the media coverage which yes excellent for the Phoenix is non-existent for the NZFC or Regional leagues, Why because the Phoenix take it all and what are they going to report? The Phoenix losing and being bottom of the league so yes the Phoenix are raising the profile of the game but they are not rasing the credibilty of it with there poor results.

 

This presumes that the Phoenix are going to stay bottom of the table for the rest of their existence. If they get into a top position, then by your reckoning they will raise the profile of the game and raise the credibility with their good results.

 

Why do we want publicity or profile? I presume (in the wider picture) that we want it to attract players to expand the playing base, supporters to sell more merchandise, get more bums on seats at all levels of the game, and to help sell TV rights and advertising. It isn�t a straight stand off between the Nix and any NZFC club, it�s probably more important that Aotearoa United get 20 new kids playing the game than Waikato FC loosing a couple of spectators to the Nix.

 

if you lose a domestic National league where are your future A-League players going to come form? Caversham, Central or Melville?

 

I don�t think that having a team in the A League means that an NZFC type competition, necessarily, dies. Look at the basketball example; the Breakers play in the Aussie competition and are televised, the NZ national league is also covered on TV and gets good support. Here in Napier, the Hawks are usually sold out every week. There might be some complaint from a team in the same market as the Nix (like Wellington) but they seem to have found some way to work it to their advantage.

 

I actually don't agree with a franchise national league despite ACFC's success, but accept that a club based league was'nt working.

 

Hard to imagine what alternative there is to that then.

I dont know what Central League was like in 2004 when there was no Kingz or National League but in Auckland most northern League clubs were getting far better crowds than they are now including Central, why maybe because the standard was a lot better with some ex Kingz and National players competing in it, whats my point people will always watch the highest standard
or what they think is the higher standard.

 

I don�t quite get the correlation here. How does having an A League team in Wellington adversely effect the number of spectators at a game in Otago? Are you saying that because they can watch the Nix on TV they are not going to get along to watch their local team now?  I�d think that the majority of spectators at any soccer match in this country (except for the Nix) are there because they are fans of the team, not necessarily of football. Because I can watch Arsenal play on Sky, doesn�t mean that I won�t go along and watch Napier Marist or HB United.

The A-League is a great comp and I enjoy watching it but do you think people would stop watching it in NZ if the Phoenix were'nt in it?

 

I think we wouldn�t get to see it as it wouldn�t be covered on NZ TV without having a NZ in it.

I believe the whole idea of the Kingz/Knights/Phoenix was to eventually raise the overall standard of the game leading all the way to a better national team
maybe i'm wrong about that I just cant see an all your eggs in one basket approach working.

 

I think it is about profile, even the best case scenario would only give us 23? Kiwi players in the Nix. How having a team in the A League improves the sport is through attracting more players, fans coaches, supporters, sponsors etc. It�s a long process and we can�t expect it to happen overnight. 10 year old Johnny decides to play soccer now and switches from rugby because he wants to play for the Nix. His Dad decides to coach his son�s team at the local club and a couple of Johnny�s friends join him. The local car dealership likes what they see with the Nix and not being able to provide sponsorship on a large scale, gives a couple of grand to his local soccer club. This allows the club to put an advertisement for new players in the paper and they get 30 new kids for next season. One of those kids goes to the Under 17 World Cup and gets picked up by Inter Milan  etc etc � that�s how increased profile works.

I just don't believe that hanging on to the Aussies coat tails is they way to do you are never going to develop a football culture all over the country with 1 team in a foreign league that plays 10/11 home games a season all in one city but expecting the whole country to support them we have a National Team and Wellington Phoenix are NOT it

 

Personally I think it is a pipe dream to think that we are ever going to knock rugby off its perch of number 1 sport in this country. That might upset some people here, but I don�t really care if tiddly-winks is our national game, all I want is a decent sport being played to a decent level and with opportunities for our kids, players, coaches, and administrators to go as far as they can with the sport. Either here or overseas.

[/QUOTE]

well said

Yeah the Hawks get good crowds but do the Wellington Orcas or Canterbury Bulls or all the other teams in Bartercard Cup? No they dont
Lets just wait and see eh were it all is in 5 years i know what my moneys on

Now you are just making things up.  Plenty of people will go through other paths but an A-League side means the best of the NZFC have a chance to make a step up to a wider audience and a professional club.  New Zealanders have a nightmare time getting a work permit (or in the A-League a spot as a 'foreign' player) this way we have a chance of finding that spot, and if they shine have them move on like a number of Australians have in this league.

You lead the whiners about what NZ Soccer doesn't do, but refuse to accept that the reason they don't do things is because they have no $$.  We don't have the NZ Government funding 10's of millions of dollars in the game like Australia dioes.

Like everything else the grand idea of 10 Phoenix's in this country is a ridiculously untenable dream.  The top two NZFC sides in this country are personal fifedom's of individuals, not some magical land where they are self supporting.  Every other club haemorrhages money.  It's just that the Westie mafia and the Croatian brigade have the money behind them to buy more titles.  They don't however have the dollars of Terry to run a club of A-League size.

NZFC sides lose money hand over fist (as do A-League clubs to this point), the media profile has actually dropped for the the league and your scheme is that they are the basis for some A-League replica ?  I don't like to bag a man for vision but, sorry Ted, but that is delusional.

Baiter2008-01-16 21:25:09

surely the Warriors are a good thing for league in NZ, so why's the Phoenix any different?

ah but i think teds argument will be they arent, because people arent going to watch bartercard cup. i guess the same argument goes for super 14-npc. maybe trans national leagues in this part of the world because of our economies are a necessary evil

The point about kids taking up the game because of the Nix seems to be a valid one.

I was talking to someone from Wellington today who said that junior registrations are expected to be considerably increased this year. Doesn't that help the game, in the long run.

yep, it sure does !

I can remember in the first few years of the Kingz that all over NZ you'd go places and there would be kids in Kingz t-shirts and strips... it was superb.  Many of those kids are still in the game because of that.

Of course, most of those kids had never gone to watch the first team of the club they played for, but a professional team on TV every week that was New Zealanders taking on Australian sides was something they aspired to.
Hard News2008-01-16 22:53:03

Very interesting posts on this thread - one of the best of recent times.  Thanks "happyted" for your views, I think it has been interesting to get the other side of the argument and I think there is some validity in some of what you say.  Of course, given my post yesterday, I disagree overall - and I like Napier Phoenix's response too.  Ideally, from this football and Phoenix fan's perspective, both competitions would thrive in New Zealand.  In common with "happyted" I loathe rugby as a sport (and for its associated blockhead culture) and would love to see the beautiful game the top sport in NZ. 

ha exactly, it's simple capitalism - the cream rises to the top, and the rest lanquish. Socialism is outdated, and sport has become neo-liberal like every other "market" - it has to

Why havent they booted you off yet?

Cnut2008-01-17 21:01:57

And finally, do NZ Rugby League fans and the gioverning body think the warriors are bad for League? No.

Bring on season two Nix supporters! Serious personnel changes will surely have to made though. This squad will certainly wooden spoon it again next year if it is not substantially bolstered. A second wooden spoon would surely be fatal. Have Nix supporters contemplated the repurcussions of that. I am sure Terry has.

agreed Jag, I'm sure both Ted and Uli will be looking for any reasons to pick fault where they can, however I hope they are prepared to eat their words if and when the Phoenix do deliver on their potential. Its all good to criticise when there are obvious weaknesses but if you can't hand out the praise when its deserved then you need to look at yourselves pretty hard!!

Just as a bit of a tangent (because there's been a bit of complaining in this thread about a lack of support for the NZFC and the Phoenix monopolising the media yada yada yada) if you don't already subscribe to NZF's "Cleansheet" newsletter then you should. It seems to come out every week and always has lots of good bits of info about NZ Football in general, including comprehensive reviews, interviews etc around the NZFC. It's really pretty good and you can subscribe here:

terminator_x2008-01-18 15:26:05

The one thing I would applaud you all on is your enthusiasm. And it is not dissimilar to what the Kings experienced in their first couple of years (although your average crowd is way bigger)

Off the back of that there are a number of opportunities that will present - such as the anticipated junior enrollments and scholarship / academy players.

What I think Ted has touched on but has not really been picked up on is that we have sen this all before and the opportunities were not exploited.

Hell you can go all the way back to 1982 when we really did miss the boat on the back of the 1981 Spring bok tour.

The Phoenix have created a ground swell of support and interest and that now needs to be capatalised upon. However, it is not the job of The Phoenix to do that.

The kids rolling up to register at Miramar or Stop Out need to be accommodated at those clubs and the structure / coaching / competitions and pathways available to them.

My fear is that NZF is not in a position to capture this momentum. The quality of coaching in this country is no where near what it was in 1980's and the number of coaches coming through the grades is no capable of meeting the explosion in player numbers.

So the future of the game in NZ rests on the depth of the pockets of just one man and it is not his responsibility. My concern for The Phoenix would be what if Terry isn't there. Maybe he has done such a good job in the first year that third parties would step in but for the game to sit on the whim of one man is frightening.

The development of players doesnt start at Under 20 level. The strength of the game is built from the grass roots up and they have been neglected for way too long.

The Phoenix have presented the game with a profile which in itself is great but the fundamental work hasd not been done on a grand scale for many years and for the life of me I don't see any significant improvment in site.

The structural problems of the game exist with or without The Phoenix. What I have concerns with is the way the club is held up as the panacea for all our problems. Many people are looking through rose tinited glasses because they have had a thoroughly entertaining season and have high expectations for next.

The Phoenix is not necessarliy the answer and it isn't necessarily the problem - what they most definitiely are is a distraction from the facts.

City Fan2008-01-18 17:19:58

A distraction from the facts - come on now, clearly having the Phoneix around has done nothing if not bring the footballing inadequecies in this country to the forefront of everyones minds. I don't disagreee with you, NZFC need to pick up the ball and make a huge effort to continue what the Phoenix ahve restarted as far as passion and interest in football. To say that the Nix distract from that is ludicrous though, they are nothe the quick fix or the long term fix to the gaping hole that is football is the lower "grass roots" of the game - what they are is a professional outfit that is playing entertaining football and helping create a groundswell of attention on the game itself. Which has to be good for the game itself. theprof2008-01-18 17:28:42

Great post City Fan lets hope that the momentum that the Phoenix has created at last galvanizes some to at last look past their own self interest and put football in NZ first.Like you i despair at the endless chances which have not been taken by the game. Maybe im being a little optimistic but lets hope that someone out there sees the opportunity here and is prepared to put money into the game like Terry has.

What i think the Phoenix has done is bring a lot of people like myself who had become disillusioned with football in NZ back in the fold so to speak.They have also brought some who have had no experience with the game before and lets hope just some of them might be in a position to help us take advantage of this opportunity.

Yes my glasses may be a little rose tinted but with football in NZ if they wernt the bloody things would be black.

Ha, when the knights last seasons were struggling for crowds, it didn't made no difference to the NZFC crowds anywhere. Auckland had the players but not the organsation or the crowds or stadium location because football is not a top regional sport there. In fact Team Wellington had the best NZFC crowds and not the two Auckland teams. None of the Aussie league Auckland teams (i.e. Kingz/knights) had the crowds that the Nix are getting even the Kingz first/second NSL season with Rufers are were never up to what the Nix are getting. Had the Kingz started in Wellington instead of Auckland then it may have been better. GeneralIy I found that there are more Football savvy crowds in Wellington than the Auckland crowds over the years only rivaled by Canterbury and even Hawkes Bay and i don't come from any of those regions. Auckland is like always frustrating to follow in any sport because they just fail to deliver according to their potential and too many gloryseeking players rather than journeymen.

Anyway, as with many here, I believe that it is the raising of the football standard for players is the way for our home-based All Whites who would be our regular playing All Whites on international duties rather than the overseas All Whites who are not available. A-league is significantly a higher standard of football whether you like it or not and we need the domestic players to be stronger.

Ideally we prefer the NZFC to be fully Professional and that the NZFC clubs would have more games (e.g 40 game season) and larger squads with plenty of sponsors. but that is not happening for a long, long time.

So having at least one team in the A-league is exposure for the best NZ players to be grabbed in one of the other 5 A-league clubs in a one year contract (the previous champions and minor premiership clubs are in the ACL) with a clause of release unless they are considered as one of the four foreign imports for the ACL. And also exposure to other leagues around the world like Ivan Vicellch going to Roda JC. It is obvious that Ivan's playing has improve remarkably and benefits the All Whites if they get to go to the World Cup final and then that (the world cup success) will bring the crowds in for the NZFC like it did in the 80's and eventually it will lock up more ongoing sponsorship and we go pro. Yes having an A-league team does benefit NZ for the meanwhile. We could similar to the SPL to EPL.

However I understand where you are coming from Ted, we do need a stronger NZFC, however we need to find financial security first and that can only be done by the relative successes in the A-league by the Phoenix and the All Whites on the international stage. Its a long and winding trip but after those successes then we can strength up the NZFC to the standard of A-league and create a stronger cycle of success.

Personally I like to see two more teams from Canterbury and Auckland in the A-league, this is possible. A dream would be having about 16 fully professional franchises in the NZFC with a home and away minor premiership competition and then a split of the top 8 and bottom 8 teams in the 2/3rd of the season for competitive development into two divisions (rather than having an aussie playoffs but giving more games for the players with a new competition altogether) and then using the final placings of the season for both division as seedings lots for the end of the season, 16 team knockout tournament with group stages. This will enable enough games (44 league + 3-6 knockouts (plus O-league games for top team)) for every team and keep the football players ready for competitive international duties. This would give three covet domestic competitions with a hard professional tempo as well as setting up players for practice in different international format competitions. I cant see the o-league as being as expansive but having a quadrangular tournament the top of three NZ A-league side having a playoff with the NZFC minor premiership winner, division one side winner and the knockout winner to determine the o-league representative is mouth watering.

Eventually the difference between the A-league sides and the NZFC sides would be the players salary it is comparble to SPL and EPL but it would be better since the A-league and hopefully NZFC would be a better competition format design than the existing SPL and EPL format.

Anyway thats my thoughts.

You seem to have the wrong end of the stick.  The Phoenix were created to play in the A-League, they were not created in a vacuum and then had to decide what competition they were going to join.

It is simple really, Terry Serepesos spotted an opportunity to fund a team playing a sport that is struggling in this country in a progressive and well marketed competition.  Your suggestion that he should have spent millions of dollars to set up a professional club to play in an amateur competition is ridiculous for a number of reasons.

First of all the return on his substantial investment would have been so small he would have been hemorrhaging millions every season.  At least by playing in the A-League the Phoenix have the potential to cover most of their expenses over the next couple of seasons.

Second, how many top New Zealand players do you think would have been happy to return to play for a professional club in the NZFC?  Not many, certainly not players like Shane Smeltz or Tim Brown.  That would leave three imports (who would not be anywhere near as good as Daniel or Felipe, unless they were offered huge sums to accept a career dead-end), and then the cream of the players already playing in the NZFC.  Which would have the result of making the NZFC even weaker and more lop-sided.

Thirdly, the profile of a club playing in the NZFC does not have anywhere near the potential impact that a team taking on the top teams from Australia can have on the profile of Football in this country.  The Warriors are a great example.  If the Warriors did not exist, then how much exposure would Rugby League get in this country?  Before you bring up the demise of the Bartercard Cup again it is worth noting that inter provincial League in this country is dying due to incompetent administration and direct competition from Rugby Union, which is an excellent warning to the administrators of Football in this country.

Fourth, there is already a competitive NZFC team in Wellington.  NZ Football would not accept a second Wellington team when the NZFC was established, why should that change.  Team Wellington already gets reasonably good support from the clubs and hardcore supporters in Wellington, and now with support from the Phoenix they are starting to have some good results.  Why should Terry focus on the NZFC when he can have a team play in the A-League, and as a side-benefit help Team Wellington to improve at the same time?

The only possible reason for anyone to make the effort to establish a professional team in the NZFC would be to gain an easy ticket to the Club World Championship.  That however is a different argument, which has been covered elsewhere on this forum.

As said in a previous posting the Phoenix have been a distraction. All the positive things about the club are correct - they have entertained they have done well to achieve what they have in the short time available. Supporters have turned up in greater numbers than ever before.

But NZF have forrgotten their bread and butter and look at the mess the game is in domestically.

That is not the fault of The Phoenix but it should be a great concern for all football followers here in NZ.

The entire board should resign along with the CEO

That's correct but it has nothing to do with the Phoenix, the two are not codependent.   

Exactly, this is what we have been trying to get through to certain people who seem to beleive that the Phoenix are responsible for football in NZ.

I think we all agree. The Phoenix are not responsible for all football in NZ - development - pathways and all the rest.

What has happened though is both the board of NZF and the executive clearly have believed that the future of the two were inextracably linked.

The out come is neglect of the domestic game

Hell The Phoenix could field a team with no kiwis in it. If that is there best chance of success then go for it. Players ultimatley need to be selected on ability not birth right.

The Phoenix are a private enterprise and if what is good for them is also good for NZ football that is a coincidence not a pre-requisite.

I want the phoenix to succeed as much as anyone but my greatest concern is NZ football and the people at the top have got it dead set wrong.

Where is the post calling for the heads of all to roll?

http://www.yellowfever.co.nz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4393
Have you read this City Fan?