The Travelling Circus - playing home games around NZ

I think it is entirely performance-based. Wellington crowds and fans only sing when we're winning. Mad buggers like you and me have a little bit more steel in our veins and we hang in there when the going gets tough (although I'm pretty jaded these days), but the vast bulk of the population just want to go and watch a team win. 

I don't think the people in the back office have any real impact on crowd numbers (except for Domey making them up of course). 

I think what the back office can and should be proud of is all of the stuff that they do now that they didn't do before - run an academy, and two full reserve sides, etc etc. It's all really good stuff and the budget of the club hasn't increased much so we really are doing a lot more for the same money.

We once had a whole bunch of quite senior people in the Phoenix office (Konga, Mal, Domey, Ben Thomas, and of course Tony P) but now we've got Schmitty, Gilly and whoever wanders in off the street. So Domey deserves a tonne of credit for getting so much done.

Then where i hatters complaints about how he could do it cheaper coming from?

i.e. If he knew that he could do it cheaper because of these discussions last year, and chose to spend the extra money knowing it would help and support the club, why is he complaining about how he could have done it cheaper knwoing it wouldnt help and support the club?

Yeah agree with your jaded sentiment have to admit it's been a struggle at times to maintain the interest with the shark faced in the real world.

Sadly it's become an addiction not so sure I actually want a cure to be frank

Sometimes I question whether New Zealand is really a sporting nation that we claim to be, especially due to the amount of fair-weather fans we have around. Other than the All Blacks, it seems like crowd sizes have been on the decline across sports codes, (see the Warriors and the Sevens) it's not just the Phoenix' problem. How much can Welnix actually do about it? 

What's the cause of these crowd problems we, as a club under scrutiny from the Aussies, undeniably face? (Don't worry I'll stay relevant to the thread's topic) 

Some blame it on the Travelling Circus, and therefore the Welnix for deciding where the fixtures are played. I agree that an inconsistent home fixture list would demotivate the average Joe from attending. If a television show that intrigues you changes what time/day it airs every week, it would be difficult for viewers to keep up. However, we can't put the blame fully on Welnix, it wasn't their fault that Westpac Stadium was under renovation near the end of 2016. It was probably financially easier to take those fixtures out of Wellington, where they could profit, instead of spending more money on trying to book the Basin, or re-stadium the Hutt Wreck again. If the sponsors insisted two games in Auckland, then at least one of them fell in the time period in which a game at the Westpac wasn't possible. 

Talking about crowd numbers being affected by performances probably belong in the Crowds thread but I acknowledge this is a big part of the issue. Hopefully the WelNix prioritise investing in a good manager to turn around an under-achieving squad for next season. 

Going forward, even as a Wellingtonian now living in Auckland, 12 games in Wellington seem fair. Perhaps next season we should probably stick to one game in Christchurch, one in Auckland and the rest in Wellington, even though I did enjoy the road-trip to regional areas. Perhaps the Welnix would need to negotiate further with local councils on how they will advertise the event, so that they can be assured that they won't be let down by the lack of advertising by the local councils as seen at NP, Hamilton and Auckland.

This season I have benefitted from the Travelling Circus, as I attended a game in NP, Hamilton, Auckland (soon to be 2) and two in Wellington, though I understand the TC has taken away from some core fans who are not willing or able to travel. Unfortunately it is what it is, and I think it's safe to say next season, with the Westpac stadium probably being available for the whole season, and the lack of turn-out at home-away games, we'll see less of them next season. 

I think we all agree that we'd all prefer as many games as possible to be played in Wellington. That's the board's core target fanbase and that's where the crowds should be turning up. The Welnix know more than we do about what the FFA want from us, so hopefully it's not mutually exclusive to achieve both the desires of the FFA and the fans in Wellington. 

It might make short term or medium term sense for the club to do it because of sponsors and FFA demands and councils underwriting games but I maintain that it's doing long term damage to the club. If we exist in 20 years it'll be because there were enough loyal committed fans in Wellington to sustain the club, not because we saved some cash by playing a third of our home games in random towns.

this is the travelling circus thread..

It's a reasonable-sounding theory to say that more games in Wellington makes more 'tragics'. But it's not really supported that well by any facts that I can think of?

And while it might sound catchy to say that we, the committed fans, are the ones who will keep the club alive, it's largely bullshark. Wellington fans have never sustained the Phoenix. The Phoenix has been sustained by Terry's largesse and the Welnix philanthropy.

The weather didn't help in Hamilton, but Auckland and NP have both had nice days so the weather couldn't be used as an excuse there.  I'm blaming a lack of promotion for it.

They've always had public appearances in the past for the non-wellington fixtures.  Now they may well have had something but it wasn't communicated if there was. Surely this isn't hard to arrange, going to a School or shopping mall.  And send first teamers not squaddies that lets face it people prob don't give a stuff about.  What do the players do outside of training and going to the gym?  

Apart from our members night before the season started, what else have us members got?  Despite our memberships saying we get invited to members only events. 

I'm going to be controversial here, what's the point in having an academy if the nix don't get the licence extended after this period?  Maybe it's better to can it altogether and focus on the first team. Don't get me wrong, Welnix have made huge strides in giving us a reserve team, a youth team but it will count for nothing if we don't survive the next 3 years.   How many of these guys are realistically pushing for a spot in the first team?

I'm interested to hear others thoughts.

cos metrix

Is this what you guys call being fans? Just constantly asking what special treatment you can get?

Hatter doesn't want games out of town because it doesn't suit him. You want them to bin the Academy because you don't get enough sponsor event invites?

And you think that's the sort of fan that is going to be the future of the club? Amazing.

If it was about special treatment I would have gone a long time ago.  I'm saying there is a disconnect between the club and fans.  Not all fans are on a first name basis with the back room staff there so we don't know the ins and outs and can only call it as we see it.

I'd rather not bin the academy, but if a sacrifice has to be made for the club to survive then perhaps it needs to be considered.

I go to every weenix match and every Phoenix match despite the weather and poor results, I think I'm the kind of fan the club needs.  

You know this isn't working when even Andy Harper mocks it with the name "Magical Mystery Tour"..

I dont want or expect "special treatment or invites", all I want is games in Wellington and for the club and us fans to make more effort in bringing along new or ex fans back to Westpac and fewer games travelling around on the Magical Mystery Tour.

I also didn't say we have sustained the Phoenix, because I would argue relying on owners sinking money in isn't sustainable. WelNix themselves have stated they want to break even and have bandied about the 10,000 crowd figure as a break even point. With more TV money and a cheaper stadium deal that might drop but the general gist is you need a certain number of people turning up on average Evey home game to break even. The travelling circus games look to be hitting diminishing returns now, at a much faster rate than the Wellington crowds have dropped. So Wellington needs to turn up. Yes, winning is the best way to increase crowds but I don't think a business model which requires constant on field success is sustainable either. Therefore, you need to grow the base of people who will turn up week in week out regardless of results or weather or whatever else.

For me this has also been an ongoing failure of Nix marketing to not focus on the "tribal" nature of football fandom and the fact that the Nix are "our" team.

It's amazing how right you think you are Smithy. But, you are wrong.

You have said how great the weenix, the academy,  et al is, & that Welnix should be applauded for that, & that is your opinion. 

But not everyone has come from a background of running an academy & being very active followers of youth football, New Zealand Football, Wellington football, etc., like you - & good on you for doing that, but that is irrelevent to the subject of the TC.  I support the Phoenix not a NZ domestic team, not a youth team, so all of the other teams (& the expenses that they incur) are a drain on the resources of the club that I am a member of. 

Wellington Phoenix are the ONLY domestic club that have to pay NZF to play in the SS Premiership. As I am not a follower of the Phoenix in the domestic league, I view it as an unnecessary expense, for the team I follow - the A-League one, the one that was here at the beginning, the one we all sing our hearts out for (when we're winning!). The one that Yellow Fever was founded for.

My opinion is different to yours, & I respect your opinion, but, when you start making up things like "Hatter doesn't want games out of town because it doesn't suit him" it proves you haven't got a clue what my motivations are, & it proves that you don't offer the same respect for other peoples opinions. 

The casual punter that we need to come back to supporting the Phoenix, probably will come back if we are winning, but we are not winning, so something needs to be done about it. 

The TC is not working, the attendences prove that, the marketing is not working as there appears to be very little of it being done. 

Before the start of the season, it was published, by the club, that " we are determined to give you something to shout about, so get in early and sign up for a season ticket." They were certainly correct in that statement, but once again, the fans are shouting & it appears that no-one is listening! 

Before the start of the season, it was published, by the club, that " we are determined to give you something to shout about, so get in early and sign up for a season ticket." They were certainly correct in that statement, but once again, the fans are shouting & it appears that no-one is listening!

I refer you all to my rant about the game plan on the Sydney match thread. Sadly it is not the rant I like to give or enjoy giving but from my perspective, it is an accurate assessment of what is happening on the field.

Now if the tactics were something different and the football exciting and results better, then I am sure I would be ranting in a much more positive way.

If the club appeased anonymous posters on the forums we'd be starting Appiah. 

Ummm this is factually correct, as told to me by someone who "resides in Phoenix Towers". 

No other team pays an entry fee apart from the Wellington Phoenix, " because our youth players are professional & no one elses are" 

Ever since he left I've been Appiah.

Back on topic please!

It may be the case that the WeeNix have to pay more to enter (I genuinely don't know if they do), but all teams have to pay the entry fee.

You emphatically stated I was wrong & then tried to justify yourself by making a comment followed by ("I genuinely dont know if they do")

Why not find out? 

(And please get back on topic!)

All teams pay an entry fee as per 4.5 of the regulations http://www.nzfootball.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/201...

Last figure I saw was 65K. and Teedubs defiantely paid it. 

I emphatically stated you were wrong. I stated that all teams pay an entry fee. 

I stated that I don't know if the WeeNix pay more than others, which is a seperate statement to the one stating that all teams pay the entry fee.

It's on-topic, as you use #alternativefacts to back up your opinions on the Travelling Circus. By stating that your "facts" are wrong (which they are in this case), it makes your opinion look less valid, which was my intention.

You're right. I don't have a clue what your motivations are. But I respect any opinion that's well thought through and supported by at least some evidence.

Let's revisit where we disagree, for the viewers at home:

You said: The TC is not working, the attendances prove that.

I say: attendances don't prove that. Attendances are poor for many reasons, of which the TC is an insignificant one. That's all I'm saying. It's just not worth the amount of rage you guys are feeling for it. If we have 2 or 3 or 4 games around the country doesn't actually matter (in terms of crowds or results).

You said: Wellington Phoenix are the ONLY domestic club that have to pay NZF to play in the SS Premiership.

I say: Bollocks. Here is the programme of Eastern Suburbs (see page 5) where the Chairman talks about the ~$100k entry fee. My understanding is that it's $65k to enter and $30k towards the TV coverage. Most SSP clubs will have public accounts, taking a quick look at the last two sets of TWs they show line items of $65k for "Entry Fee". Those two sets predate the TV deal.

That's about it really.

I haven't actually said that the Academy/Reserve thing is wonderful. I've said that the Phoenix are doing a lot more with a lot less. Is that for the better of the club? I haven't really thought about it to be honest. 

It's a complicated question because some of the Academy/Reserve costs are funded from gaming machine money so if they vanished so would the cash; it's not like that cash can be immediately redirected to marketing. But maybe some of it could, I'm not sure. I guess it's inarguable that the club's focus would be entirely on the first team, and maybe they need that.

You said in an earlier post that if the Welnix want to make a success of this team they need to spend more money. You're right. There is no substitute for good players. Bargains are a risk and this season has demonstrated that like no other. Tasked with pulling together a top 4 team on a bottom 4 budget Ernie bought us players who just haven't done the business. 

Once upon a time we picked up the captain of the winning team (Dura) and a proven goalscorer from the Championship (Iffs). Can you imagine us buying the equivalents now (say Galekovic and Chris Wood)???

That's the special sauce. He who spends, wins. The TC is just a distraction.

Not sure where things have gone to shark but much prefer the earlier days of the fever. Sure as hell didn't seem to be the disconnect there seems to be these days. Think there are a few of us like Hatter who first and foremost are Phoenix fans first and anything after that is just an add on.

All teams pay a fee to NZF which, as Patrick correctly points out, covers the cost of Travel etc. 

Wellington Phoenix are the only team in the league , according to my source, who pay a fee to play, due to them having professional players. 

The Weenix are not part of the Traveling Circus, because NZF pay for their travel costs. (According to item 17 of the regulations) 

Back on Topic please. 

I think everyone in the Fever would consider themselves a Phoenix fan first and then to enjoy the games with mates and to sing and drink they are part of the Fever.

Ha. Nothing much has changed. I remember getting cakes to take the forums offline in Season 1 when we lost a game and there was just non-stop angst. Pretty sure you were one of the ones complaining then too :)

All these things have happened before, and all of them will happen again. Fans will keep buying season tickets.

As posted by Patrick earlier, the $65K Entry fee covers cost of travel etc. And I presume the Phoenix pay that, as well.

But, and this is where you need to pay attention to the detail, I said "Wellington Phoenix are the ONLY domestic club that have to pay NZF to PLAY in the SS Premiership" & in a later post I stated that this was due to "us having professional youth players"

I have no reason to doubt the source of this information, & as I dont take a great deal of interest in the SSP, I don't really care what it costs to participate in it, unless NZF are charging the Phoenix extra, over & above what it costs everyone else!

Wonder if Lowry would have performed so well this season when he's filled in if he didn't have a half dozen SSPrem games to play in.

Another point in regards to the TC. If we played all our games at Westpac, that would give all the new players time to adjust and get used to the quirks of Westpac with the turf, the swirling wind and the 4 seasons in 1 day. by moving around the country 4 times it is 4 less chances of them assimilating to those very conditions and using them to an advantage.

You are conveniently forgetting about "us having professional youth players"

Why would that command an extra entry fee? Not saying you are incorrect, but it's the first I've heard of it, nor can I find anything about it in any documents I've sifted through. So am genuinely curious about it.

I don't really think it's overly relevant to the TC though. I can't imagine any additional entry fee would be that substantial that it'd make a huge difference to the first team, or mean less games taken on the road. 

In fact as 2B mentions above it helps our first team by giving fringe players game time. It also adds value to a season ticket by giving fans entry to an additional 9 games of football per season. 

yes. because it wasn't in your original post about it. Your original statement is clearly wrong based on NZF reg. I think we can all agree that.

Your clarifying stated might be correct. More than likely it is given your source. 

Regardless, having a reserve side is clearly beneficial in keeping some players match fit and developing younger players. That ends up benefiting the first team. And I've seen no evidence that it is taking resource away from the first team.