Tony P to pull plug on Phoenix Oly-Whites

121 replies · 2,025 views

almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

And for some more context:

NZ's group games at the Olympics are:

7 August v China

10 August v Brazil

13 August v Belgium

The A-League season starts 4 days later on 17 August. Admittedly, if Smeltz and Lochead are at the Olympics they will pretty much miss the whole pre-season cup (from 20 July to 6 August) but I know where I'd rather they were getting themselves match fit. And with China only being 4 hours behind NZ I really don't see why they even have to miss a league match. FFS, Chris Killen has flown out from the UK and played with less recovery time.

Of course, NZ could pull off a miracle and go through to the quarter finals at the Olympics (16 August), semis (19 August) and final (23 August). Our boys would then miss two A-League games but on the other hand the country would be going nuts and even the poison dwarf from TVNZ would have to be impressed.

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

What's the deal? Last 1st round game on 13th August (Shanghai). Fly out on the 14th (morning). Back in the evening (10 hour flight). Virtually no jet lag - its a 3-4 [hour] time difference. By the 15th - you're as fit as a daisy. What's the problem? Misses some of the preseason in cold damp WLG? A couple of weeks running around in the sticky Asian heat - now that's what I call real training.

PS: See the Termy post on the previous page. Better.

Stevo2008-05-22 22:19:53

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

We have to repay the faith the NZOC put in us. If we don't release players the Olywhites want then we are undermining their efforts, and although I'd be disappointed, if we qualified next time around it would be fair for the NZOC to not let us go.

To be perfectly honest, I'd rather Lochhead went ahead of Elliot. I know Elliot is a good player, good enough to play in the Premier League, but how many games has he played recently? He's ridiculously injury prone and we are going to need two quality defenders (Nelsen and Lochhead) when we play Brazil and China.

Everybody is talking about how this will so adversely effect the Phoenix, but I seriously doubt there will be serious ramifications at all.
loyalgunner2008-05-22 17:54:03

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Stevo wrote:

What's the deal? Last 1st round game on 13th August (Shanghai). Fly out on the 14th (morning). Back in the evening (10 hour flight). Virtually no jet lag - its a 3-4 time difference. By the 15th - you're as fit as a daisy. What's the problem? Misses some of the preseason in cold damp WLG? A couple of weeks running around in the sticky Asian heat - now that's what I call real training.

Thanks for that Stevo......I've changed my mind....send them!

Smeltz and Lockhead are good enough players to slot back into the Phoenix setup under that time frame. I originally thought they were missing two games.

Mind you I would feel a whole lot more comfortable about it all if we had signed Porter or another gun striker. Looks like there will be quite a load on Shanes shoulders this season.

For those thinking that the country will be fixated with the Olympic football forget it...it will be only us football nutters. May be if the Olywhites play off for a medal the media will notice but in reality they will be raving on about Marc Todd and the rowers and shotputters etc

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Ronaldunno wrote:

Good to see you've changed your mind Ronaldunno. Nice one.

Gotta disagree about the above quote however. It's the Olympics and these games are going to be played on free-to-air prime time TV. Lots of folks who would never normally watch football are going to have a look, maybe for the first time. And a lot of them won't even realise it's basically an U23 team, they'll just see NZ at the Olympics. The Olympics is certainly the only time I would watch any of the other sports you've mentioned.

Admittedly, if there's a clash with Valerie Vili biffing the shotput we might have to accept second-billing.

terminator_x2008-05-22 21:16:50

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I wonder what Smeltz and Lochhead would prefer to do?
Presumably go to the Olympics.

If they can be back in time for the first A-League game then let them go.

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

someone's just put up on the fronytpage that Killen will be released by Celtic for the Olympics - so Smeltzy is now (presumably) more likely to be with the Nix for pre-season etc

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

tigers wrote:

someone's just put up on the fronytpage that Killen will be released by Celtic for the Olympics - so Smeltzy is now (presumably) more likely to be with the Nix for pre-season etc

just get Killen, Nelson and Elliott in there

I think a lot of people will be interested in out Olympic games. The whole should they/shouldnt they go thing raised the public awareness

Feverish2008-05-22 22:17:40

Founder

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

(I posted this as part of a post in another thread, but figure i should post it in here instead,since its more the proper place to give my opinion!)

As for releasing our players,it does kind of suck we wont release them,people on this forum will fume at blackburn if they wont release nelsen,but at the same time are quite happy with our decision not to release any of our players...that doesnt seem right does it?

Having said that,from a phoenix point of view,why should we release our players who arent even going to play due to the big 3 from europe being available? (if they are)

I am clearly torn on this issue. For me it comes down to what you think is better for NZ football, the phoenix doing well,or the oly-whites having a proper full squad to choose from so they can do well and the underage players get the experience of playing with their overage pros

Allegedly

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

International football eats club anyday.

I want the best X (I don't know the squad size) amount of players eligible to play for New Zealand in the squad.........

Pure Genius2008-05-23 00:08:44

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Stevo wrote:

PS: See the Termy post on the previous page. Better.

Because were going to get gold. DAH!!!

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Pure Genius wrote:

International football eats club anyday.

I want the best X (I don't know the squad size) amount of players eligible to play for New Zealand in the squad.........

But, and this is the crucial difference, the Olympics are a youth tournament. Eligible players can go regardless of club opinion and in the press release, Tony P mentioned that we have three in that category - though Hard News indicated they may ultimately not get selected?

Overage players are different. That's why the clubs have a say.

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I'm going to totally disagree with most people on this forum, its only a youth tournament, it won't be televised here in NZ and you can't expect the Phoenix to stump up 4 or 5 players for the team so they are 4 or 5 players short for the first 1 or 2 (depending on who you talk to) league games of the season.

Those first 2 games are at home for the Phoenix and I'd be spewing if 4 or 5 first team players were unavailable because they are with the youth team at the Olympics.

Someone made a comment earlier about Blackburn not having to release Ryan Nelson. Thats correct and the Phoenix don't have to release anyone either but they are already losing draper and Costa and we're calling them selfish for not releasing 2 more?? sorry but thats complete bullsh*t.

Fitz

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Is Killen a first choice player for Celtic? If he goes to the Olympics, he will miss Celtic's first Champions League game, being the first leg of the third qualifiers on August 12/13. I'm surprised if Celtic are agreeing to release a first choice player from that match.

Good news for those wanting Nelsen - Blackburn are not in this year's Intertoto. Aston Villa got it. Now it's just the Premier League start date of 16 August that needs to be negotiated. Will that be a long enough gap? (Assuming NZ don't get past the group stage.)

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

SiNZ wrote:

Is Killen a first choice player for Celtic?

Nope.

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

SiNZ wrote:

Is Killen a first choice player for Celtic? ï¿½

I thought this was a rhetorical question when I started reading your post SiNZ...

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

If Killen is going then there is no point taking Smeltz...why have two out of your three seniors up front as strikers. You need to balance the team with a senior midfielder and defender. Personally I would take two senior defenders....when you are up against Ronaldinho you will need to have a very well organised defense. Sure hope Nelson can make it. He will give the the defense a bit of steel and composure!

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Well Killen has been released to play by Celtic so that means Smeltz won't be going. I think we can afford to let Lochhead go and should if he's needed.

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Sorry Tony P, everything you've done til now has been great, but you didn't come across well on TV news the other night.

I'd much rather Phoenix did well and Smelt and Lochead were playing here, but to deny two players the Olympics? Ask the players what they would rather do. There was also the underlying threat that "if the players miss training and pre-season then their spots in the Phoenix would be in doubt" which made me uncomfortable.

I might have missed something, and sorry if it's been mentioned, but have the Phoenix pulled the pin on Troy Hearfield going as well, or is it just the automatic first team kiwis being denied?

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Royal wrote:

but have the Phoenix pulled the pin on Troy Hearfield going as well, or is it just the automatic first team kiwis being denied?

The Phoenix have no say on Hearfield. He is not an overage player.

Do people keep forgetting that the Olympics is a youth tournament.

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Stevo wrote:

PS: See the Termy post on the previous page. Better.

If that's the case... definitely send them. Would be crazy not to! Why would they miss any league games, assuming they don't get injured?

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

As I understand it you can only have three over-age players in your whole squad so if Chris Killen is going it certainly reduces the likelihood that Smeltz will get picked. As another poster pointed out it would make sense to spread the over-agers throughout the team.

If Nelson and Elliot are unavailable though, who knows?

I think Chris Killen is the man, by the way. The fact that he is not a regular first teamer at Celtic makes it even more impressive that he wants to front up at the Olympics rather than stay in the UK at a critical time to fight for a place in the Celtic first team.

Hopefully the Phoenix will allow Smeltz and Lochead to show the same sort of passion and commitment to their country, if required, and recognise that those are the same qualities that make them good players for the club.

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Isn't the season over for Celtic?

a.haak

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Yes, but the Olympics are at the beginning of next season.

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

yes but the olympics isn't being held tomorrow are they

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

true that :P Thought it was next month for some reason.

a.haak

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

That's Euro

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I think we should be picking the best team possible and those players being allowed to play.

It might not make a difference as far as results go, we are probably on a hiding to nothing, but as far as attitude goes, I like to think country is ahead of club. lets give it our best shot with the best possible players.

Some of the thinking seems to be that the Phoenix are doomed if Smeltz is not available, so what will happen if he is sick or injured during the season, we have to have faith in the other players at some time

Killen hasnt played much for Celtic lately, hasnt even been picked on the bench, but he will still be fit and an asset to the team, I'd like to see him and Smeltz up front in the tournament

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Smeltz wont be going if Killen goes, though..

a.haak

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

As Chris Killen says:

ï¿½Iï¿½m wrapped and buzzing that Iï¿½ve been given the opportunity to go to the Olympics ï¿½ itï¿½s a great competition.ï¿½

ï¿½I love playing for my country and whenever a game comes up, Iï¿½m the first to find out if I can get back.ï¿½

To deny the players the chance to go to the Olympics might make sense from the club's point of view but it doesn't seem like very holistic man-management to me. If you stifle a player's ambitions that will eventually translate to their performances on the field. And simply waving their contract in their face and telling them to toe the line isn't going to make them feel any happier.

If Smeltz and Lochead are picked they will get back from the Olympics four days before the start of the A-League absolutely buzzing - surely that's got to be good for everybody?

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

valeo wrote:

Smeltz wont be going if Killen goes, though..

And if Killen and Smeltz play up front, how much game time will the young blokes who need the experience get?

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

terminator_x wrote:

If Smeltz and Lochead are picked they will get back from the Olympics four days before the start of the A-League absolutely buzzing - surely that's got to be good for everybody?

So if NZ go into the final group game with a chance of progression.... or is that possibility being completely discounted?

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Critical_Lemon wrote:

And if Killen and Smeltz play up front, how much game time will the young blokes who need the experience get?

Maybe some time as substitutes, we need credible displays, the likes of Henderson, Draper and Costa have year ahead of them, any time and mere involvement in the camp or the tournament would be a huge learning curve for them.

How's my driving? - Whine here

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

SiNZ wrote:

terminator_x wrote:

If Smeltz and Lochead are picked they will get back from the Olympics four days before the start of the A-League absolutely buzzing - surely that's got to be good for everybody?

So if NZ go into the final group game with a chance of progression.... or is that possibility being completely discounted?

Good question, but it seems highly unlikely we'll get through to the next stage.

The way I see it, if that does happen even those Phoenix fans who didn't want them to go will be getting excited. Come on, you'd have to have a heart of stone to not think that would be a great achievement - the rest of the country would definitely be getting into it and the absolute worst case scenario is they miss two A-League games (and for that to happen we'd have to make the final). Even getting knocked out of the Olympics in the semis on 19 August would see them home for the second A-League game of the season on 24 August.

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

The underlying assumption I struggle with is that Smeltz and Lochhead can miss pre-season games, go to the Olympics and come back a few days before our first game (assuming we don't make it past the round robin) and slot straight into the starting 11 like they were never away. Sorry, I don't think so. The pre-season games are all about building combinations - Lochhead has never played with Durante, McCain or Gao - that I'm aware of. Assuming we sign another starting striker Smeltz will need game time with him to develop the combination. Don't forget they will both come back buggered (hopefully not injured) - assuming they get 2 if not 3 starts.

I guess it comes down to;

- your priorities - noting we have released the under 23 players selected my priority is Nix first Olympics second for over 23 players.

- your assessment of the risk / reward of releasing over 23 players. For me the risk of lost combinations and buggered or injured players is not worth the short term reward of doing a little better than we might otherwise have done at the Olympics.

Tough call for Tony but it's his call to make.

He dribbles a lot and the opposition dont like it - you can see it all over their faces. (Ron Atkinson)

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Ronaldunno wrote:

If Killen is going then there is no point taking Smeltz...why have two out of your three seniors up front as strikers. You need to balance the team with a senior midfielder and defender. Personally I would take two senior defenders....when you are up against Ronaldinho you will need to have a very well organised defense. Sure hope Nelson can make it. He will give the the defense a bit of steel and composure!

I would rather see two central midfielders in the squad than two defenders. A solid back line is great, but if the midfield is average they will give classy players like Ronaldinho enough time and space on the ball to tear any defense to shreds.

The Olympics should be first priority for our players. It is a shame that Danny Hay has been given this ammunition and gets to be right about it.

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Interesting debate with good points on both sides.

The bottom line, however, is that Danny Hay is absolutely correct - NZ Football has to come first for the overall good of the game. There isn't enough of these opportunities for NZ to pick and choose.

Even from a Phoenix viewpoint, surely the experience gained by Smeltz and Lochhead playing in a quality comp against quality opposition is only going to improve their long-term game. Surely of greater value than some meaningless preseason games - they have sufficient familiariity with most of the squad.

And as for the injury argument, we all know players can get injured at any moment be it at training or nightclubbing, the cottonwool argument doesn't wash.

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Simon Elliot has been released by Fulham (sauce) so that might make he more available/less available, depending on how he goes about getting a new club.

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

i think that will help his availability for the oly whites enourmously

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almost 18 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

No it doesn't. If he joins a new club he would be reluctant to leave them in the first few weeks of being there..

a.haak

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