What the Phoenix could learn from the Warriors

What the Phoenix could learn from the Warriors

6 years ago the Warriors set themselves the task of becoming a development club.  They knew that the raw talent was there in NZ and set about harnessing it.

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the sooner we can implement youth teams and feeder teams into the club, the better. Ideally they need to be playing in the NYL if possible- get the travel factors into them early, and also keeping them playing at the right standards. It will be a while before this happens.

The positive is that the new owners seem to have this as quite a big aim to do, so hopefully we do get some youth initiatives launched

I think there are 2 things - 1 the club needs to work closely with the federations and NZF at a more junior level to identify talent. james dean2011-09-29 00:29:10

Also, one of the key things is that we are never going to be able to attract the best Australians across the tasman.  So to win the comp we rely on getting lucky (because it often is about luck) with imports or have the best kiwis at the club.  Right now the best kiwis are out of our price range so we need to do more to develop our own.

Pre-match haka.

JD

The Mariners did something this year that even draw praise from Fozzie... essentially our coaching staff have set up the training for our local association rep sides...

On a larger scale ... the Nix could develop training methods and plays to be sent to senior youth coaches ... maybe even hold some coach training .... if you could develop coaching systems developed by professional coaching staff for NZ coaches to follow ... that would be a huge start...

The Mariner partnership http://www.ccmariners.com.au/default.aspx?s=aleague_newsdisplay&id=40344

It would also need a different attitude from the various bodies. The Warriors schemes are heavily funded by the NRL,the NZRL and the ARL. None of the equivalent organisations are going to pay for this for the benefit of the Phoenix.

The FFA won't find NZ development. NZF won't fund Aus development and can you imagine the uproar if Capital football funded somehing for the Phoenix?

There's still the small issue of movement between grades (International Transfer between "reserve" team to first team squad etc) which as it currently stands does not look like f*cking off in a hurry unless Oceania Confederation collapsed and is taken over by the AFC.

In saying that, I don't think that you will get too many arguments from many on here about developing Yoof in the right environment.

Apples and oranges.

Gifted youngsters playing rugby league hope to play in the NRL.  Gifted youngsters playing football might want to do a stint in the A-League to put themselves in the shop window, but if they can skip it out and go directly to bigger and better things, they will.  A brilliant youth development system might result in a kind of Ajax on the South Seas set-up, but it won't create a beautiful Warriors.

How about a coach willing to play yoof?

Well said

The NRL is the elite rugby league competition in the world. The A-League is not and never will come close to being the elite football competition in the world.

Looks like there is no avoiding them though. In terms of quality, pie-in-the-sky idea is that the more quality signings A league clubs make, the better the league becomes, especially its reputation. Not only COULD that have an impact on patronage through the turnstyles, but also convinces clubs and national bodies such as NZF/AFF that more investment is needed.

A lot of it depends on what other clubs are doing too.

Or we could be like Stoke City and get interest free loans from our parent gaming website company.mikecj2011-09-29 10:51:46

Kiwibank?

Well, setting up a good development system is not cheap but could pay for itself if we are able to sell our most talented players.

Probably the biggest benefactor of this would be NZF/All Whites.

If over the long term the cost of the development system is less than player outgoings it would be a benefit to the Phoenix. Which I think would be a long way away as the reputation of HAL/NZ players is not that high.

It could also help the Phoenix be competitive in the HAL if there are a 'generation' of talented youth in the first team that doesn't reflect the salaries they are on, ie they are on/just above youth contracts due to experience but offer ability above their salaries, which gives us a competitive advantage over other teams.

In all honesty, I don't think a development system is that important for the short-medium term, a reserve team so players get games is what we need at most. Revenues are not high enough, there is a salary cap in the league and it is too risky relying on having to sell players.

The main difference for me is that the NRL is the epitome of rugby league. If it wasn't for the cash players can get playing in the english competition the NRL would be the only league in the world players actually take seriously. Young rugby league players dream of winning the NRL grand final, playing and training with their heros and the best players in the world is a distinct possibility, and they queue up to play in the NRL u20 comp or reserve grade in the hope of being noticed by a top grade coach/scout.

The A League is still finding its feet in terms of worldwide recognition, marquee players such as Fowler, Kewell etc are helping, but as it stands a young player probably has a better chance of making a career out of football by playing in a lower division in Europe or, dare I say it, the US.

So my question is, what is the point of pouring even more money in to the club by setting up a development team when players are merely likely to use it as a stepping stone to get to Europe?

Don't get me wrong I'd love to see some sort of development pathway for players who are "better than" our own domestic league I just struggle to see how nix overlords can make it financially viable. Perhaps such a team needs to be propped up by NZF?

They also have a youth team competing in the Australian competition I should add

Also they straightened out the tongue of their emblem which was supposedly contributing to their run of poor performances.

Change name to NZ Phoenix, change club colours to black and white, hire an australian coach and we're there!

The Mad Butcher = ?? Junior822011-09-29 12:46:52

NZ Kiwis.  When going in for chest-beating nationalism, make sure to turn it up to 11.

Transfer issues. Though a few U20 players are being looked at in ASBP,and TW in particular due to them being geographically closer.

I think it's working as it should be. Short of having a Phoenix side in the Australian youth competition like the warriors do.

Do the Warriors fans have chant sheets?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT9efcIadws

its hardly a new model - developing young talent has been the focus of most football clubs all over the world for a long long time. Some are better at it than others. Instead of pumping John Hart go and speak to Curbishley. Feverish2011-09-29 14:37:45

Pumping John Hart. Now there's an image.

1. I specifically mention the warriors because they are in a similar league and location to us. Their development model has been shown to work so I would rather look at their model than overseas. This isn't about technical stuff, it's about how their infrastructure works for a single team representing the country.

2. It may be every kids dream to play in europe but right now that really isn't happening. Even going through the states hasn't been that successful - for all the guy who've gone to college that there are only 2 in the MLS is pretty poor. So the current pathway isn't really working.

3. The warriors do get money from NZRL - but NZF have shown that they will fund Phoenix programmes, they paid for the ASB challenge series. You'd just need to show them some value to the national body - a quid pro quo of sorts. As for the federations, again you'd need to show some value to club or federations for developing players. Perhaps reward clubs financially for producing players that get into development squads etc?

4. There re plenty of other threads to muck around in, J82 etc. Enough with the gags already...

There are also plenty of other threads discussing this topic. Keep the laughs coming J82

Not working? Didn't we just get our best World Cup result EVER? As much as I hate to say it, perhaps allowing our young gun players to develop overseas is a good thing. I'd love to see more young NZers in the A League but is that really whats best for them? Maybe using it as a stepping stone to overseas is the way to go?

Interestingly, of those who have played for the All Whites in the last 18 months, 17 out of 31 ply their trades outside NZ and Australia.

I guess the point I'd make is that of guys who have gone through the current system only Chris Wood, Boxhall, Dan Keat and Craig Henderson are now overseas.  The other overseas players either did it themselves or were trained by another association.

Marco? Kosta?

The stat was 14 play outside NZ and Australia.  But yes I forgot Kosta. But he's playing in the russian second division, Henderson still hasn't played a game for Mjalby in Sweden and Keat is an MLS reserve.  Guys may want to play overseas but it's not been that succesful so far. james dean2011-09-29 22:44:15

At this point, I recommend taking a moment to wonder if you just got over-excited with the Warriors result went to pushing their model without due consideration.  This sort of exuberance happens all the time, even to the best of us.

If that's not sufficient, these four points are not compelling.  Nobody is granting you (1) free of charge.  A team playing rugby league in New Zealand is in a very different place to a team playing football in New Zealand, because the peak level of competition is differently located for the two sports.  This continues to be the problem at (2): the Warriors model is not about exporting semi-finished talent half-way around the world - what relevance does it have to the Phoenix?  With (3), we step from an unwieldy comparison to a strange implication - that NZF isn't already investing in youth football.  Clearly, the Phoenix are seen as one pathway (of many) for the development of NZ footballers, and can expect co-operation from the national body on those terms.

And (4), while technically true, is just waiting for a punchline.

Ok Stripes - bigger picture for a moment.  Are you saying that the Phoenix should not worry about youth development?  Or are you saying that an integrated youth development model like the warriors have is not possible for football? 

Bigger picture?  Until the 'next Marco Rojas' is coming through the grades in multiples every season, there isn't all that much to invest in.  This suggests that the Phoenix should leave youth development (at least in New Zealand) for several more years.  NZF has made a big investment in the earlier stages of footballing development, and the candidates from that need time to come through.  Until then, carry on picking up MLS rejects.

Now, if we were talking about the importance of developing ties with the far superior Australian infrastructure - that's something the club should do.  If there's no room in the Y-League for a Wellington-based, mostly New Zealand national, team, then ask to become the Capital Cities Freakshow and base the kids, mostly Australian, in Canberra - still playing in the Wellington Phoenix strip.

JD I think there is one thing that hasn't been mentioned that you might want to consider. Jeff Vader2011-09-30 10:52:59

Jeff you make some very interesting points and raise an important subject. Do TW have the potential to close the gap on Waitak and ACFC and turn the Big 2 into a Big 3, given their location with regards to the Phoenix and the ability that may have in being able to attract quality players?