WPM 2023/24 Squad Speculation, Confirmation and Mutual Termination

Yeah agree. You want completely separate fan forums.

But I'd like to think that if a fledging Auckland fan group wanted  some help or ideas on how to get up & going, the YF elite would be more than willing to help. Far be for it for me to tell others what to do with their valuable recreational time - but it's definitely in the best interests of the Nix & NZ football as a whole that any new Auckland team be a success. That includes their own fan group to rival and banter with YF.

You want the best day out experience in Auckland and Welly for what will be unique to NZ derby games. Organised fan groups for both clubs will be a huge part of making these games really cool to go to. They could quickly become must attend events for the casuals & curious. Like how the summer Rugby 7s was in it's heyday.

Hopefully not far away on an announcement for the new Canberra & 09 clubs.

Is building internet forums for new clubs still a thing?  

I’m keeping my name on the new forum 

ballane

Mainland FC

Agree with lthomas20
Living in Christchurch means I would be happy to support both clubs and I sincerely hope we do not end up with two different forums to follow; life is too short for that kind of distraction.  And I would miss those of you that might move over to the Auckland club forum.

Your kidding right surly you dont expect YF forum to also hold forums discussing the Auckland team. Maybe one thread slagging them off but if you want to discuss then go to their forums. If im wrong then i would expect a name change for YF.

yeah, there's no way the yellow fever forum should be hosting a rival a league team. There should only be a single thread which is devoted to them, like we have for other teams.

What we do about white noise will be interesting.

coochiee

Yeah agree. You want completely separate fan forums.

But I'd like to think that if a fledging Auckland fan group wanted  some help or ideas on how to get up & going, the YF elite would be more than willing to help. Far be for it for me to tell others what to do with their valuable recreational time - but it's definitely in the best interests of the Nix & NZ football as a whole that any new Auckland team be a success. That includes their own fan group to rival and banter with YF.

You want the best day out experience in Auckland and Welly for what will be unique to NZ derby games. Organised fan groups for both clubs will be a huge part of making these games really cool to go to. They could quickly become must attend events for the casuals & curious. Like how the summer Rugby 7s was in it's heyday.

Hopefully not far away on an announcement for the new Canberra & 09 clubs.

help sure, ideas totally - hosting a rivals forum on your own platform - not on your life. As much as I want a new Auckland team they will be sworn enemies from day 1, and that includes their fans!

It has to be a hostile derby to be entertaining. If Auckland fans are all here and everyone are mates it will deflate the fixture.

Wrong thread everyone

AucklandPhoenix

I’m keeping my name on the new forum 

And your avatar?

coochiee

Yeah agree. You want completely separate fan forums.

But I'd like to think that if a fledging Auckland fan group wanted  some help or ideas on how to get up & going, the YF elite would be more than willing to help. Far be for it for me to tell others what to do with their valuable recreational time - but it's definitely in the best interests of the Nix & NZ football as a whole that any new Auckland team be a success. That includes their own fan group to rival and banter with YF.

You want the best day out experience in Auckland and Welly for what will be unique to NZ derby games. Organised fan groups for both clubs will be a huge part of making these games really cool to go to. They could quickly become must attend events for the casuals & curious. Like how the summer Rugby 7s was in it's heyday.

Hopefully not far away on an announcement for the new Canberra & 09 clubs.

In the best interests of NZF definitely, but the Phoenix are very much a private business and no business wants their monopoly diminished. They hold all the cards over New Zealand-based players and so can drive the prices down as the supply far outweighs the demand, and can easily say 'it's this, slogging away trialling overseas or amateur football'. A second team takes away a bit of that massive power imbalance and gives a little bit more bargaining power to players to have them bid against each other.

I mean, where is Callan Elliot, for example? British window has closed (still a free agent so can still sign and possibly even be registered) and still hasn't popped up anywhere. He might have a few months out of pro football and come back to be a founding player in AKL. Him and Francis de Vries as fullbacks are two full NZ internationals, could do worse.

There are a few NZ players who Auckland might try take off the Phoenix, as well as upper North Island youth players (a lot) who might stay up north. Those are all potentially sellable assets being lost. Eventually they'll get their own academy set up and the Phoenix will also lose a lot of revenue from parents paying for their kids to go to either the 'schools' held around the country or the full academy.

The 'derbies' will generate interest, but a winning team is much better in the long run (ie more than one week) for crowds, as has been proven countless times. Even then, would that many people travel down as away support? You might end up dropping a bit of your support with people switching to Auckland.

The Auckland games have always been described as a financial necessity almost and those will likely not be possible any more (playing at 'home' in your rival's city?). The crowds have typically been good for them as well bringing in ticket sales. That might mean you look to 'new' secondary markets for 'home' games, Christchurch or Dunedin the immediate options. The Auckland games were also possibly sponsor-driven? Will that mean they will look towards the Auckland team, having a team play there every other week. 

Christchurch will have shiny new roofed stadium from early 2026, it will be the blinding obvious choice as a future location for Nix to take 1-2 'home' games per season. If the stadium is completed in summer before the rugby season starts, the first ever event at the new edifice could be a Nix game. Expect close to a full house (26,000 permanent seats) if so.

Taking 2 games to ChCh each season could be a chance to explore any commercial opportunities down there. Is there a chance to work in with Slava Meyn, Christchurch United and their academy. From memory they had 3-4 players in the NZ U16 boys wider squad named recently, so their academy starting to produce some talent. Paul Ifill is ex Nix after all, and is a host of Cantabs in the Nix ALW side.

But yes for sure will be a few negatives for the Nix, when a new Auckland team enters. And yipe the biggest one will be the likely loss of sponsor dollars, as some current Auckland based football sponsors look to move their valuable commercial dollars to an 09 team.

But not sure an Auckland team will lead to much in the way of increased wage demands for NZ players. The decreased revenue for the A League as whole the last few years, will dampen any serious threat of that. 

Does the current Weenix Academy have a cap on it's current annual intake? Or do they just take anyone? 

For sure many kids in the upper North Island will now look to an Auckland team as their pathway. But if Weenix have been operating with a cap on numbers, they could now just lower the standard to get in, so still keeping numbers the same. I imagine the female side of the Academy is also expanding as parents increasingly see football as a potential profession for Jane as much as Jack.

Like the end to any monopoly the Nix will have to review everything from top to bottom, strive to do better and possibly have to cut back further on some expenses.

(wrong thread)

Good morning. 

We’re doooooomed! (It’s been over 12 hours since our last warning.)

Now that the NZ regional leagues have wound up. Will we see any NZ domestic players trialling at the Nix?

With a new formation it's not the worst idea in the world to save the pennies and an import slot and bring someone in in January to fill in a gap. We've had a bit of success with January signings in the past and taking a few months off the wage bill might be more affordable than a whole season.

Ryan

With a new formation it's not the worst idea in the world to save the pennies and an import slot and bring someone in in January to fill in a gap. We've had a bit of success with January signings in the past and taking a few months off the wage bill might be more affordable than a whole season.

Even this window, AL gets to register players after many leagues' windows are closed - even Saudi Arabian league. 

If anyone is interested or has been following the sighting of James Bayliss being in and around the Wellington area/trialling/training with the Nix, then I can confirm for you all that he is now back in Australia.

Maybe some trial after the u23 qualifiers? 

Would love to see a local home grown talent have a break out year!

YoungHeartHM

If anyone is interested or has been following the sighting of James Bayliss being in and around the Wellington area/trialling/training with the Nix, then I can confirm for you all that he is now back in Australia.

Gone home or gone to pack?

Ryan

With a new formation it's not the worst idea in the world to save the pennies and an import slot and bring someone in in January to fill in a gap. We've had a bit of success with January signings in the past and taking a few months off the wage bill might be more affordable than a whole season.

Look, at this point we can expect a slow start to the season like the past few seasons. So if our late run of form coincides with a decent import signing, I'll take it

ClubOranje

YoungHeartHM

If anyone is interested or has been following the sighting of James Bayliss being in and around the Wellington area/trialling/training with the Nix, then I can confirm for you all that he is now back in Australia.

Gone home or gone to pack?

Sounds to me to be more like seeing what options he's got over in Australia.

Have asked the question though, so just awaiting the response. I'll let you know when I hear back.

Bullion

Ryan

With a new formation it's not the worst idea in the world to save the pennies and an import slot and bring someone in in January to fill in a gap. We've had a bit of success with January signings in the past and taking a few months off the wage bill might be more affordable than a whole season.

Even this window, AL gets to register players after many leagues' windows are closed - even Saudi Arabian league. 

yeah, but because there less games after January the players should be cheaper and hopefully for in our budget.

It’s a bloody concern when we are talking about the advantages of signing people in January based upon our thread bare squad at the moment

ClubOranje

YoungHeartHM

If anyone is interested or has been following the sighting of James Bayliss being in and around the Wellington area/trialling/training with the Nix, then I can confirm for you all that he is now back in Australia.

Gone home or gone to pack?

Confirmed the trial, but for obvious reasons won't disclose next moves. 

Firmly in Australia for now. 

We have 10 games before January even opens ffs. That's close to 40% of the season.

If we are sitting dead last with no wins by the time January comes (which if I am brutally honest is not even that unlikely), we're not just gonna be saved be a couple of sugar hit signings. Time to stop being ridiculous just hoping things that fortuitously happened for us in the past will happen again. 

We definitely don't have the weakest team in the league currently. But I think for this season the expectations shouldn't be too high with how the squad is shaping up and if we exceed them great but I think if this season we see an exciting brand of football being played with clear direction where its going and there's a few youngsters that breakthrough and look like promising first team players for years to come it'll be a success. As for next season we should have at least 2 visa slots open up and maybe even another 2 if we don't resign Kraev and Zawada. So if we have a good bunch of youngsters coming through and 5 visa spots to play with the next season could be a very exciting one may just have to endure a bad season to have a great one.

I think the attraction of this season is going to be how the Kiwi players come through. 

We’ve got some veteran Kiwis who might be giving their last spell of magic possibly in Kosta and Payne. Can’t see them looking for any big move ahead, but still may have a lot at A league level. 

Then we’ve got stalwart Kiwis in Rufer, van Hattum and Sutton who definitely could given the right circumstances jump a level and head to Europe or elsewhere. (And Elliot???)

And then there’s the new boys- headed by the known in Surman and Paulsen, but Conchie, Kelly-Heald and the rest of the academy boys any of whom could prove to be more than ready. (In fact, I think we’d have done better last season if Paulsen had been given more senior team minutes. But that’s as may be.)

And we’ll be watching Old, still a young fella- in fact ridiculously only 21, but with seemingly bags of professional experience and a nagging injury. Someone who has the skills if the body allows.

To be honest that’s most likely where the enjoyment is going to come from for me. Last season I thought we should definitely be aggressive and focused in trying to win a Premiership. 

This season it seems possible goals might be hard to come by at first as the new style beds in. But already in the cup competition we have had some youngsters announcing their arrival as Paulsen previously did. I think it’s guna be a fun season, but I don’t expect this team to challenge for the Premiership. Get into the post season with a run of good form though? A home final of some kind would be amazing and beyond my expectations. Have to wait and see on that, but it’s not outside the realms of possibility. 

Looking forward to this season. Guna go and put all my expectations for achievements on the women…! 

AucklandPhoenix

It’s a bloody concern when we are talking about the advantages of signing people in January based upon our thread bare squad at the moment

i didn't say it was an advantage, just not a bad idea. Most teams are in this boat, Rudan was having a winge about it and the pod said that roar only have three foreigners

lthomas20

We have 10 games before January even opens ffs. That's close to 40% of the season.

If we are sitting dead last with no wins by the time January comes (which if I am brutally honest is not even that unlikely), we're not just gonna be saved be a couple of sugar hit signings. Time to stop being ridiculous just hoping things that fortuitously happened for us in the past will happen again. 

I mean, sure, have concerns about squad depth and quality, but there is no need for the doom and gloom. It's a "watch the spend" kind of season. Along with a host of other clubs we haven't splashed big time on marquee players or big name locals. Since the CCM success last season the club seem to have moved away from chasing the big spending model and more onto a development of youth. That takes time and this could be the first of many "low budget" seasons while we work towards buidling and developing youth. 

Think part of the reality is that with the new Auckland team, there is going to be added competition (and wage inflation) for those more fringe All Whites players. So it makes sense to try get in front of that a bit by blooding some younger players this season.

theprof

lthomas20

We have 10 games before January even opens ffs. That's close to 40% of the season.

If we are sitting dead last with no wins by the time January comes (which if I am brutally honest is not even that unlikely), we're not just gonna be saved be a couple of sugar hit signings. Time to stop being ridiculous just hoping things that fortuitously happened for us in the past will happen again. 

I mean, sure, have concerns about squad depth and quality, but there is no need for the doom and gloom. It's a "watch the spend" kind of season. Along with a host of other clubs we haven't splashed big time on marquee players or big name locals. Since the CCM success last season the club seem to have moved away from chasing the big spending model and more onto a development of youth. That takes time and this could be the first of many "low budget" seasons while we work towards buidling and developing youth. 

This is a common mischaracterisation of the Mariners - yes they have brought through some standout young players (Farrell, Triantis, Nisbet, and the Kuols), but their approach is more what I describe in the ballpark of moneyball. Those young guys have done superbly in their system and helped contribute to success, but the real reason they did so well is through signing a lot of undervalued players (Jason Cummings, Brian Kaltak, Sam Silvera, and foreigners such as Nkololo and Tulio). 

lthomas20

theprof

lthomas20

We have 10 games before January even opens ffs. That's close to 40% of the season.

If we are sitting dead last with no wins by the time January comes (which if I am brutally honest is not even that unlikely), we're not just gonna be saved be a couple of sugar hit signings. Time to stop being ridiculous just hoping things that fortuitously happened for us in the past will happen again. 

I mean, sure, have concerns about squad depth and quality, but there is no need for the doom and gloom. It's a "watch the spend" kind of season. Along with a host of other clubs we haven't splashed big time on marquee players or big name locals. Since the CCM success last season the club seem to have moved away from chasing the big spending model and more onto a development of youth. That takes time and this could be the first of many "low budget" seasons while we work towards buidling and developing youth. 

This is a common mischaracterisation of the Mariners - yes they have brought through some standout young players (Farrell, Triantis, Nisbet, and the Kuols), but their approach is more what I describe in the ballpark of moneyball. Those young guys have done superbly in their system and helped contribute to success, but the real reason they did so well is through signing a lot of undervalued players (Jason Cummings, Brian Kaltak, Sam Silvera, and foreigners such as Nkololo and Tulio). 

And the Phoenix haven't done that? A lot of recent import signings have been hits and not-known names Kraev, Zawada, Ball, Davila, Steinman, etc, and then locals like Lewis, Piscopo, Devlin. Our problem is more of keeping these players or not having enough of these players during the same year other than that 19/20 season.

It'll be interesting to see if the Mariners be competitive this season after losing so many of those players and if their new 'moneyball' signings work out as that's always the risk as you see it with many teams, especially in the top 5 leagues where teams will have a good couple years from good scouting and youth development but once they lose those players and a few of their replacements become duds they'll slip back down. (Speaking from experience as a Leicester City fan)

wilbaker

lthomas20

theprof

lthomas20

We have 10 games before January even opens ffs. That's close to 40% of the season.

If we are sitting dead last with no wins by the time January comes (which if I am brutally honest is not even that unlikely), we're not just gonna be saved be a couple of sugar hit signings. Time to stop being ridiculous just hoping things that fortuitously happened for us in the past will happen again. 

I mean, sure, have concerns about squad depth and quality, but there is no need for the doom and gloom. It's a "watch the spend" kind of season. Along with a host of other clubs we haven't splashed big time on marquee players or big name locals. Since the CCM success last season the club seem to have moved away from chasing the big spending model and more onto a development of youth. That takes time and this could be the first of many "low budget" seasons while we work towards buidling and developing youth. 

This is a common mischaracterisation of the Mariners - yes they have brought through some standout young players (Farrell, Triantis, Nisbet, and the Kuols), but their approach is more what I describe in the ballpark of moneyball. Those young guys have done superbly in their system and helped contribute to success, but the real reason they did so well is through signing a lot of undervalued players (Jason Cummings, Brian Kaltak, Sam Silvera, and foreigners such as Nkololo and Tulio). 

And the Phoenix haven't done that? A lot of recent import signings have been hits and not-known names Kraev, Zawada, Ball, Davila, Steinman, etc, and then locals like Lewis, Piscopo, Devlin. Our problem is more of keeping these players or not having enough of these players during the same year other than that 19/20 season.

It'll be interesting to see if the Mariners be competitive this season after losing so many of those players and if their new 'moneyball' signings work out as that's always the risk as you see it with many teams, especially in the top 5 leagues where teams will have a good couple years from good scouting and youth development but once they lose those players and a few of their replacements become duds they'll slip back down. (Speaking from experience as a Leicester City fan)

The Phoenix used to do that. But our recent record isn't so impressive - only 1 player transferred in last season outperformed expectations (Zawada). Kraev got massively overhyped first half of the season then flattened out in G/A second half of the season, and I say that as somebody that likes him as a player. Whether people want to hear it or not... Uffie lost his touch. 

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lthomas20

wilbaker

lthomas20

theprof

lthomas20

We have 10 games before January even opens ffs. That's close to 40% of the season.

If we are sitting dead last with no wins by the time January comes (which if I am brutally honest is not even that unlikely), we're not just gonna be saved be a couple of sugar hit signings. Time to stop being ridiculous just hoping things that fortuitously happened for us in the past will happen again. 

I mean, sure, have concerns about squad depth and quality, but there is no need for the doom and gloom. It's a "watch the spend" kind of season. Along with a host of other clubs we haven't splashed big time on marquee players or big name locals. Since the CCM success last season the club seem to have moved away from chasing the big spending model and more onto a development of youth. That takes time and this could be the first of many "low budget" seasons while we work towards buidling and developing youth. 

This is a common mischaracterisation of the Mariners - yes they have brought through some standout young players (Farrell, Triantis, Nisbet, and the Kuols), but their approach is more what I describe in the ballpark of moneyball. Those young guys have done superbly in their system and helped contribute to success, but the real reason they did so well is through signing a lot of undervalued players (Jason Cummings, Brian Kaltak, Sam Silvera, and foreigners such as Nkololo and Tulio). 

And the Phoenix haven't done that? A lot of recent import signings have been hits and not-known names Kraev, Zawada, Ball, Davila, Steinman, etc, and then locals like Lewis, Piscopo, Devlin. Our problem is more of keeping these players or not having enough of these players during the same year other than that 19/20 season.

It'll be interesting to see if the Mariners be competitive this season after losing so many of those players and if their new 'moneyball' signings work out as that's always the risk as you see it with many teams, especially in the top 5 leagues where teams will have a good couple years from good scouting and youth development but once they lose those players and a few of their replacements become duds they'll slip back down. (Speaking from experience as a Leicester City fan)

The Phoenix used to do that. But our recent record isn't so impressive - only 1 player transferred in last season outperformed expectations (Zawada). Kraev got massively overhyped first half of the season then flattened out in G/A second half of the season, and I say that as somebody that likes him as a player. Whether people want to hear it or not... Uffie lost his touch. 

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Yeah our recent signings have been more miss than success but its still following the same policy of targeting undervalued players? That was my main point you can do this strategy and it's not always gonna work. Which you may see the same for Mariners this season with some of their new signings.

I think it wasn't just recruitment, it was also Uffie's stubbornness with the 4-2-2-2. I think a lot of teams had us worked out. Similar with how teams had worked out Sydney FC's formation (Corica started using it in 2018, 4 years later, teams worked them out and they ended 8th). We saw signs of teams having worked us out in the 2021-22 season, but we still didn't change. 2019-20 and 2020-21 season was good but the problem was that Uffie was not flexible. Who knows some players may have flourished under a different set up. 

Having said that, the positive thing is that let alone us, other teams don't know how we will set up. A breath of fresh air.

To get back on track with squad stories. I live in Upper Hutt.  Working from home today so went down and watched training for 10 minutes at lunchtime.  What i could see close up was a shooting drill with about six or so that included both Zawada and Kraev, both looking very sharp.  With the European transfer windows now shut, and them still here is very heartening news.

The goalkeepers working were Duncan and a young chap.  I do have to say that Duncan did look very sharp as well.  I know he has become a bit of a whipping boy on these pages, but he looked ok to me.

I've compared Uffie's first squad in 2019/20 with Chiefy's first squad. I've tried to compare players with their most similar equivalent and said which player is better.

Uffie inherited 7 players in 19/20 and recruited 16. Chief inherited 13 and has signed 4 (including 2 academy players).

Screen Shot 2023-08-27 at 10.19.13 PM.png 186.72 KB

As you can see, this season's squad is much, much weaker. The only better players in 23/24 for me are Payne > Fenton (although this is very debatable), Rufer now > Rufer then, Conchie > Brandon Wilson and Zawada > Hooper.

Biggest downgrades for me are: 
- 2 back up CBs -> No one 

- 2 back up RBs -> No one
- Steinmann and Devlin -> Pennington and Al-Taay
- Davila -> Kraev
- Taylor -> Wootton
- Cacace -> Sutton
- Ball then -> Ball now

To help us out I’d say two things:
1) our opponents are also fairly much uniformly weaker as well. 

2) Kelly Heald and Surman are not necessarily worse. Surman is faster than Devere for starters. Sutton hadn’t made a break through at this time and was used very sparingly. 
Sutton could be a key player for us now, but for injuries. He’s not Cacace, but he’s also a very good attacking FB. He kept McGarry out as the better player.

Also hoping Kosta and Kraev can lift their performances. If you’d asked us in Uffie’s first season about Sotirio, we here wasn’t a lot of trust in him. Kinda like OVH now tbh. 

Pennington/Steinmann is an interesting one as Matti wasn’t charged with many attacking duties. And we haven’t seen Pennington and Conchie operating together. I think we view Matti through tinted glasses,  with Taylor behind and Hooper ahead. 

Unfortunately I’d also say Fenton then was worse than Payne as a RB? Zawada better than Hooper? Very kind. Fenton had up and down form, but was much better going forward and getting back than Payne imo. 

martinb

To help us out I’d say two things:
1) our opponents are also fairly much uniformly weaker as well. 

2) Kelly Heald and Surman are not necessarily worse. Surman is faster than Devere for starters. Sutton hadn’t made a break through at this time and was used very sparingly. 
Sutton could be a key player for us now, but for injuries. He’s not Cacace, but he’s also a very good attacking FB. He kept McGarry out as the better player.

Also hoping Kosta and Kraev can lift their performances. If you’d asked us in Uffie’s first season about Sotirio, we here wasn’t a lot of trust in him. Kinda like OVH now tbh. 

Pennington/Steinmann is an interesting one as Matti wasn’t charged with many attacking duties. And we haven’t seen Pennington and Conchie operating together. I think we view Matti through tinted glasses,  with Taylor behind and Hooper ahead. 

Unfortunately I’d also say Fenton then was worse than Payne as a RB? Zawada better than Hooper? Very kind. Fenton had up and down form, but was much better going forward and getting back than Payne imo. 

Good shout that the league as a whole is weaker this season, I agree with that. I also agree that LKH vs Sutton and Surman vs DeVere are very close and I reckon an argument could be made for both.

Fenton definitely an up and down player but yeah tbh he had a great season in 19/20 and probably was actually better than Payne now.

Zawada is definitely better than Hooper for me though. Hooper has better pedigree and more talent but he was old, a bit immobile and injury prone. Absolutely magic player but Zawada is one of our best ever (even if he can’t score a brace).

Friar Tuck

I've compared Uffie's first squad in 2019/20 with Chiefy's first squad. I've tried to compare players with their most similar equivalent and said which player is better.

Uffie inherited 7 players in 19/20 and recruited 16. Chief inherited 13 and has signed 4 (including 2 academy players).

Screen Shot 2023-08-27 at 10.19.13 PM.png 186.72 KB

As you can see, this season's squad is much, much weaker. The only better players in 23/24 for me are Payne > Fenton (although this is very debatable), Rufer now > Rufer then, Conchie > Brandon Wilson and Zawada > Hooper.

Biggest downgrades for me are: 
- 2 back up CBs -> No one 

- 2 back up RBs -> No one
- Steinmann and Devlin -> Pennington and Al-Taay
- Davila -> Kraev
- Taylor -> Wootton
- Cacace -> Sutton
- Ball then -> Ball now

tbf, Payne was first choice RB in 19/20. Fenton started the season at RB but after 4 games never played again until the covid restart which I think Payne was suspended for breaking lockdown protocol and Callan Elliot overtook Fenton in that period.