Still a lot of footy to play - so worrying about goal difference seems a little premature to me - and CCM and grinding out 1 - 0 wins at the moment and seem to have lost some of their goal scoring form.
I really enjoyed the game yesterday - was played at a much higher intensity than recent games with the NIX even pressing Adelaide at times.
I'm not sure who posted it, but the fact that 10 out of the 11 players on the field towards the end of the game were kiwis is huge - we can't underestimate the value the NIX have in developing NZ football.
Surman I thought had a decent game with a couple poor moments - but I also wonder if they were perhaps a sign of his increased confidence (getting caught on the ball). There was one play early in the game in the corner where he faked the clearance and the defender slid right past him and he dribbled forward beford hitting a 30m diagonal ball to one of our midfielders. It was impressive play from a CB. I wonder, if he is beginning to feel more comfortable at this level, at this pace that he can carry the ball forward etc??
I agree with Rufer, he was not that good yesterday, but he comes from a high footballing standard, nothing to worry. We had some issues with playing out of the back and holding the ball under pressure for big patches, I’m not sure if that was our fault or Adalaide be to good.
This league is tough, anyone can challenge anyone else regardless of where they are in the league. Adelaide are a decent team and they showed that they can keep figting. So can we. It wasn't our best performance - mistakles were made and they lead to goals, Rufer's pen was clear, their second came from a lack of comms at the back and noone clearing the ball, that occurred a couple of times and we were lucky. Losing Zawada pregame was disruptive but the boys showed we can still score goals without him. Stoked to see OVH poach one, althouogh he took it off Ball who also needs to poach one. Some of the comments I've seen in this thread about the gmae being horrid and dire surprise me, especially when the same comments are said about us griding out draws or 1-0 wins. 5 goals were scored, there was plenty in attack, the noise was great and we won! What do you want, 5-0 drubbings each week? This isn't EA sports with the cheats maxxed in your favour! With 6 rounds to go we are top, leading CCm by 3 points. We have a positive GD of 12 (second behind CCM on 13). We are mid table for goals scored (33), but we have the best defences, goals against (21) - when have we ever had the best defence in the league? We have conceeded fractionally over 1 goal per game! This season is by far our best EVER!
Geez I forgot that Kraev was cm from a brace and an assist himself!
Especially that travela shot was important (as well as amazing) because it picked us up after we conceded the pen and jerkoff or whatever his name is celebrating in front of the Fever.
The Newtown fair was on yesterday as well and there were loads of people at that. Nix advertising/marketing is not good. The team don't seem to do any public appearances. No fun videos of the team are posted from what I can find. There doesn't seem to be much engagement. It is disappointing. Marto
InsulinMachine
loyalgunner
I missed the crowd figure and it's not on stuff. Anyone know?
7,200
Thats really really poor. Top of the league, at home, nice day, 9 results (10 now, yes!). c'mon Wellington you can do better then that, and so can you Nix marketing.
The Newtown fair was on yesterday as well and there were loads of people at that. Nix advertising/marketing is not good. The team don't seem to do any public appearances. No fun videos of the team are posted from what I can find. There doesn't seem to be much engagement. It is disappointing. Marto
InsulinMachine
loyalgunner
I missed the crowd figure and it's not on stuff. Anyone know?
7,200
Thats really really poor. Top of the league, at home, nice day, 9 results (10 now, yes!). c'mon Wellington you can do better then that, and so can you Nix marketing.
There's a reasonable amount of Nix videos on things like youtube shorts and tiktok. The Nix apparently have the best social media engagement of all teams and the most youtube subscribers.
But yeah, I think there's a few players that can they can build some hype around if they get them in front of people.
Kiwi Messi scoring 2 to beat Victory certainly helps.
2 horse race between us and CCM for 1st. And they're gonna have a bunch of Asian Cup games
Mariners have at least two more AFC Cup games. H&A against Roy Krishana's Odisha. Home tie this week 7th March, and then away tie India 14th March. You'd think an ALM team should be too strong for an ISL team.
If CCM get past Odisha then next is a two legged tie against the winner of Abdysh-Ata Kant (Krygyzstan) verus Taichung Futuro (Taiwan). Dates 17th & 24th April. Would be a long haul to Krygyzstan.
Win that and it's the AFC Cup final against either an Oman team or a Lebanon team. And looks like either of the latter two West Asian teams will host the final.
Rufer said post game the Nix didn't play well today, and the travel back from Perth may have been a factor. Ain't nothing compare to what potentially awaits CCM.
Reading posts like this makes me glad we aren't eligible to play in continental competition.
Imagine having a league title charge potentially derailed because of a four-day-round-trip to Kyrgyzstan right at the pointy end of a season...
Good on the Mariners though, they're easily my second favourite team in the league - Way they play the game, how they operate as a club, and the success they've had doing it their own way. I hope they go deep in this AFC Cup (but only if that distracts them from a league title charge on the domestic front).
Dire game, the goal post probably still ringing from all the times we hit. But we got three points.
Dire? We won, we're top of the league, 5 goals were scored, what more do you want?
I think this goes back to the question of "why aren't the broad masses getting behind the Nix". Because ground-out 1 goal wins and draws are doing the job of keeping us top of the table, but they're not firing the imagination of punters.
Honestly, I still feel there's something unconvincing about this side, because I haven't seen them go through teams lfor a shortcut (eg 6-0 against GCU the last time we made a deep playoffs run). Like, don't get your hopes up, it's all hanging by a thread and the bubble will burst soon. And I know that's not a sensible feeling. But if it's a common feeling, that would explain the public apathy.
Dire game, the goal post probably still ringing from all the times we hit. But we got three points.
Dire? We won, we're top of the league, 5 goals were scored, what more do you want?
I think this goes back to the question of "why aren't the broad masses getting behind the Nix". Because ground-out 1 goal wins and draws are doing the job of keeping us top of the table, but they're not firing the imagination of punters.
Honestly, I still feel there's something unconvincing about this side, because I haven't seen them go through teams lfor a shortcut (eg 6-0 against GCU the last time we made a deep playoffs run). Like, don't get your hopes up, it's all hanging by a thread and the bubble will burst soon. And I know that's not a sensible feeling. But if it's a common feeling, that would explain the public apathy.
I tend to agree with what you are saying. I feel like the league is general is weaker this year and we have got very very lucky in a bunch of games.
We aren't a team that's ripping through teams 5-0, but we are making it very hard for them and grinding out wins.
But really at the end of the day, I don't care how we win and how we win the league :)
Dire game, the goal post probably still ringing from all the times we hit. But we got three points.
Dire? We won, we're top of the league, 5 goals were scored, what more do you want?
I think this goes back to the question of "why aren't the broad masses getting behind the Nix". Because ground-out 1 goal wins and draws are doing the job of keeping us top of the table, but they're not firing the imagination of punters.
Honestly, I still feel there's something unconvincing about this side, because I haven't seen them go through teams lfor a shortcut (eg 6-0 against GCU the last time we made a deep playoffs run). Like, don't get your hopes up, it's all hanging by a thread and the bubble will burst soon. And I know that's not a sensible feeling. But if it's a common feeling, that would explain the public apathy.
I tend to agree with what you are saying. I feel like the league is general is weaker this year and we have got very very lucky in a bunch of games.
We aren't a team that's ripping through teams 5-0, but we are making it very hard for them and grinding out wins.
But really at the end of the day, I don't care how we win and how we win the league :)
Im not sure if the league is weaker, maybe we've lost a lot of high profile players due to cost cutting, but the league is definately more even across the board. Most seasons there are one or two stand outs way ahead of the rest, ususally Sydney or City. This year its very even across the whole league. Which has worked in our favour as our player quality is equal to the others but our setup is better.
Geez I forgot that Kraev was cm from a brace and an assist himself!
Especially that travela shot was important (as well as amazing) because it picked us up after we conceded the pen and jerkoff or whatever his name is celebrating in front of the Fever.
* Ben Old?
Yeees…
But immediately after we conceded Kraev picked up the ball and ran all the way up the right, shrugging off the defender and smacked a shot off the post. Then he put a great cross on Payne’s head in the 6 yard box. We were poor before HT and then conceded and Kraev lifted us again…
I wonder if the halftime break was better for Adelaide than for us. We nearly lost the plot around 50-55 min before Italiano brought on the four changes.
Based on transfers, and where players are going - if anything the league is getting better.
Technically I think the players are better than in the past and we have shown an improvement in understanding how to play - teams seem to have clearer playing identities than in the past.
and journeyman don't seem to be getting a look in now!
Based on transfers, and where players are going - if anything the league is getting better.
Technically I think the players are better than in the past and we have shown an improvement in understanding how to play - teams seem to have clearer playing identities than in the past.
and journeyman don't seem to be getting a look in now!
I think the league is maturing and sort of finding it's place more as a development league, ie the better younger players having a couple of seasons and then going up north. That was one of the early criticisms of the ALM compared to the NSL - younger players not getting a look in. Lots of comparisons to the Golden Era Socceroos (2006 Germany World Cup) nearly all of whom had gone through the NSL as young kids.
Clubs like the Nix getting their Academies well established, and focusing more on bringing through their own younger players, than high profile marquees. But alot of this just had to evolve. The current TV rights deal is like 30-40% of what Fox Sports were playing? So for the clubs & league to survive this simply had to happen.
With very good owners, a well run Academy, and excellent facilities at NZCIS, the Nix could consistently be a top half of the table ALM club going foward, as all the Aussie clubs go for more modest player expenditure. Biggest challenge to Nix in the future could be Auckland, and losing their long standing monopoly on young NZ talent.
Kiwi Messi scoring 2 to beat Victory certainly helps.
2 horse race between us and CCM for 1st. And they're gonna have a bunch of Asian Cup games
Mariners have at least two more AFC Cup games. H&A against Roy Krishana's Odisha. Home tie this week 7th March, and then away tie India 14th March. You'd think an ALM team should be too strong for an ISL team.
If CCM get past Odisha then next is a two legged tie against the winner of Abdysh-Ata Kant (Krygyzstan) verus Taichung Futuro (Taiwan). Dates 17th & 24th April. Would be a long haul to Krygyzstan.
Win that and it's the AFC Cup final against either an Oman team or a Lebanon team. And looks like either of the latter two West Asian teams will host the final.
Rufer said post game the Nix didn't play well today, and the travel back from Perth may have been a factor. Ain't nothing compare to what potentially awaits CCM.
Thats brutal for CCM if they make it past Odisha having another two legs I thought they'd be in the final after that. You'd think they would almost wanna throw away the AFC cup unless the money in winning it is really good? Maybe if they lose to MacArthur this week and we beat Melbourne they might just wanna focus on the AFC cup.
See that Odisha don't have an ISL game this weekend, so after the game at Gosford on Thursday they have a rest before the 2nd leg in India. Mariners meanwhile yes get a tough game against Macarther this weekend, before the long haul to India.
Odisha are based in Bhubaneswar in India, and that looks like is about a 30 hour trip one way from Sydney! They will want a good 2-0 or 3-0 win on Thursday.
From Wiki, the AFC Cup does have some nice prize money, but only it seems if you make the Final (4 potential games before that for the Mariners). Winners in the Final $USD1.5M & Runnersup $USD750K
Dire game, the goal post probably still ringing from all the times we hit. But we got three points.
Dire? We won, we're top of the league, 5 goals were scored, what more do you want?
It wasnt a dire game because we won, it wasn't a dire game because we scored 3 goals. It was a dire game because for large portions we didn't play like a side that has any composure. Surman passed the ball to their strikers under little pressure at least three times and rufer kicked someone in the back of the legs in the box. That was just some of the examples of sloppiness. A game can be dire if win.
Kiwi Messi scoring 2 to beat Victory certainly helps.
2 horse race between us and CCM for 1st. And they're gonna have a bunch of Asian Cup games
Mariners have at least two more AFC Cup games. H&A against Roy Krishana's Odisha. Home tie this week 7th March, and then away tie India 14th March. You'd think an ALM team should be too strong for an ISL team.
If CCM get past Odisha then next is a two legged tie against the winner of Abdysh-Ata Kant (Krygyzstan) verus Taichung Futuro (Taiwan). Dates 17th & 24th April. Would be a long haul to Krygyzstan.
Win that and it's the AFC Cup final against either an Oman team or a Lebanon team. And looks like either of the latter two West Asian teams will host the final.
Rufer said post game the Nix didn't play well today, and the travel back from Perth may have been a factor. Ain't nothing compare to what potentially awaits CCM.
Thats brutal for CCM if they make it past Odisha having another two legs I thought they'd be in the final after that. You'd think they would almost wanna throw away the AFC cup unless the money in winning it is really good? Maybe if they lose to MacArthur this week and we beat Melbourne they might just wanna focus on the AFC cup.
I imagine they’ll push pretty hard to win the cup. AFC Cup winner gets a spot in next year’s Asian Champions League which is incredibly hard to come by now that Australia’s coefficient drop only gets them 1 guaranteed spot (winner of the regular season).
Plus no prize money for the A-League Finals vs plenty for the Cup and ACL.
Dire game, the goal post probably still ringing from all the times we hit. But we got three points.
Dire? We won, we're top of the league, 5 goals were scored, what more do you want?
It wasnt a dire game because we won, it wasn't a dire game because we scored 3 goals. It was a dire game because for large portions we didn't play like a side that has any composure. Surman passed the ball to their strikers under little pressure at least three times and rufer kicked someone in the back of the legs in the box. That was just some of the examples of sloppiness. A game can be dire if win.
It wasn't dire though, 3 points and 3 goals disqualifies it from that. Dire is what we were to finish last season, or under Kalezic.
The fact that people are calling small moments of sloppiness that were addressed within the 90 minutes "dire" is a clear indication of how far we've come and how much standards have been raised this season.
Dire game, the goal post probably still ringing from all the times we hit. But we got three points.
Dire? We won, we're top of the league, 5 goals were scored, what more do you want?
It wasnt a dire game because we won, it wasn't a dire game because we scored 3 goals. It was a dire game because for large portions we didn't play like a side that has any composure. Surman passed the ball to their strikers under little pressure at least three times and rufer kicked someone in the back of the legs in the box. That was just some of the examples of sloppiness. A game can be dire if win.
It wasn't dire though, 3 points and 3 goals disqualifies it from that. Dire is what we were to finish last season, or under Kalezic.
The fact that people are calling small moments of sloppiness that were addressed within the 90 minutes "dire" is a clear indication of how far we've come and how much standards have been raised this season.
Totally, calling a win with a few whoopsie moments dire is just a gross over exageration! Dire describes a game where we've been totally out played and dominated across the park and lost by 3, we havent done that all season.
Dire game, the goal post probably still ringing from all the times we hit. But we got three points.
Dire? We won, we're top of the league, 5 goals were scored, what more do you want?
It wasnt a dire game because we won, it wasn't a dire game because we scored 3 goals. It was a dire game because for large portions we didn't play like a side that has any composure. Surman passed the ball to their strikers under little pressure at least three times and rufer kicked someone in the back of the legs in the box. That was just some of the examples of sloppiness. A game can be dire if win.
It wasn't dire though, 3 points and 3 goals disqualifies it from that. Dire is what we were to finish last season, or under Kalezic.
The fact that people are calling small moments of sloppiness that were addressed within the 90 minutes "dire" is a clear indication of how far we've come and how much standards have been raised this season.
Us not winning is more because Adelaide were poor then we were good. CCM would have had a field day with that sloppiness. I don't know why I can't want more. I want a grand final win I want to a league win and seeing the sloppiness worries me, it impacts the goals I think we can reasonably now expect for the season. The players and coach literally said after the game said they were sloppy. Are they wrong too? I sloppy game is a dire game.
Kiwi Messi scoring 2 to beat Victory certainly helps.
2 horse race between us and CCM for 1st. And they're gonna have a bunch of Asian Cup games
Mariners have at least two more AFC Cup games. H&A against Roy Krishana's Odisha. Home tie this week 7th March, and then away tie India 14th March. You'd think an ALM team should be too strong for an ISL team.
If CCM get past Odisha then next is a two legged tie against the winner of Abdysh-Ata Kant (Krygyzstan) verus Taichung Futuro (Taiwan). Dates 17th & 24th April. Would be a long haul to Krygyzstan.
Win that and it's the AFC Cup final against either an Oman team or a Lebanon team. And looks like either of the latter two West Asian teams will host the final.
Rufer said post game the Nix didn't play well today, and the travel back from Perth may have been a factor. Ain't nothing compare to what potentially awaits CCM.
Thats brutal for CCM if they make it past Odisha having another two legs I thought they'd be in the final after that. You'd think they would almost wanna throw away the AFC cup unless the money in winning it is really good? Maybe if they lose to MacArthur this week and we beat Melbourne they might just wanna focus on the AFC cup.
I imagine they’ll push pretty hard to win the cup. AFC Cup winner gets a spot in next year’s Asian Champions League which is incredibly hard to come by now that Australia’s coefficient drop only gets them 1 guaranteed spot (winner of the regular season).
Plus no prize money for the A-League Finals vs plenty for the Cup and ACL.
Technically that means CCM only needs to come second in the regular season (behind, hopefully, the Nix) to get an automatic ACL spot then?
See that Odisha don't have an ISL game this weekend, so after the game at Gosford on Thursday they have a rest before the 2nd leg in India. Mariners meanwhile yes get a tough game against Macarther this weekend, before the long haul to India.
Odisha are based in Bhubaneswar in India, and that looks like is about a 30 hour trip one way from Sydney! They will want a good 2-0 or 3-0 win on Thursday.
From Wiki, the AFC Cup does have some nice prize money, but only it seems if you make the Final (4 potential games before that for the Mariners). Winners in the Final $USD1.5M & Runnersup $USD750K
For sure will be some big decisions being made at Mariners HQ, on which comp now takes precedence.
CCM will get the international break plus looks like they don't have a game scheduled for round 21 (17th March). So they will have two weeks to rest players up after the trip to India, before they play Sydney away . Where as we will likely have 5 odd players flying around the world over that int break period.
Dire game, the goal post probably still ringing from all the times we hit. But we got three points.
Dire? We won, we're top of the league, 5 goals were scored, what more do you want?
It wasnt a dire game because we won, it wasn't a dire game because we scored 3 goals. It was a dire game because for large portions we didn't play like a side that has any composure. Surman passed the ball to their strikers under little pressure at least three times and rufer kicked someone in the back of the legs in the box. That was just some of the examples of sloppiness. A game can be dire if win.
It wasn't dire though, 3 points and 3 goals disqualifies it from that. Dire is what we were to finish last season, or under Kalezic.
The fact that people are calling small moments of sloppiness that were addressed within the 90 minutes "dire" is a clear indication of how far we've come and how much standards have been raised this season.
Us not winning is more because Adelaide were poor then we were good. CCM would have had a field day with that sloppiness. I don't know why I can't want more. I want a grand final win I want to a league win and seeing the sloppiness worries me, it impacts the goals I think we can reasonably now expect for the season. The players and coach literally said after the game said they were sloppy. Are they wrong too? I sloppy game is a dire game.
we were absolutely electric for a good 20-30 minutes. Inconsistent game, but not dire.
Dire game, the goal post probably still ringing from all the times we hit. But we got three points.
Dire? We won, we're top of the league, 5 goals were scored, what more do you want?
It wasnt a dire game because we won, it wasn't a dire game because we scored 3 goals. It was a dire game because for large portions we didn't play like a side that has any composure. Surman passed the ball to their strikers under little pressure at least three times and rufer kicked someone in the back of the legs in the box. That was just some of the examples of sloppiness. A game can be dire if win.
It wasn't dire though, 3 points and 3 goals disqualifies it from that. Dire is what we were to finish last season, or under Kalezic.
The fact that people are calling small moments of sloppiness that were addressed within the 90 minutes "dire" is a clear indication of how far we've come and how much standards have been raised this season.
Us not winning is more because Adelaide were poor then we were good. CCM would have had a field day with that sloppiness. I don't know why I can't want more. I want a grand final win I want to a league win and seeing the sloppiness worries me, it impacts the goals I think we can reasonably now expect for the season. The players and coach literally said after the game said they were sloppy. Are they wrong too? I sloppy game is a dire game.
Sloppy does not equal dire. dire:
extremely serious or urgent.
"misuse of drugs can have dire consequences"
terrible
dreadful
appalling
frightful
awful
horrible
atrocious
Sloppy: careless and unsystematic;
Vastly different meanings. I'm happy with referring to a 3-2 victory as sloppy and not the finished product. That is perfectly accurate, we were at our best, I've said as much earlier. But in no way were we dire.
Dire game, the goal post probably still ringing from all the times we hit. But we got three points.
Dire? We won, we're top of the league, 5 goals were scored, what more do you want?
It wasnt a dire game because we won, it wasn't a dire game because we scored 3 goals. It was a dire game because for large portions we didn't play like a side that has any composure. Surman passed the ball to their strikers under little pressure at least three times and rufer kicked someone in the back of the legs in the box. That was just some of the examples of sloppiness. A game can be dire if win.
It wasn't dire though, 3 points and 3 goals disqualifies it from that. Dire is what we were to finish last season, or under Kalezic.
The fact that people are calling small moments of sloppiness that were addressed within the 90 minutes "dire" is a clear indication of how far we've come and how much standards have been raised this season.
Us not winning is more because Adelaide were poor then we were good. CCM would have had a field day with that sloppiness. I don't know why I can't want more. I want a grand final win I want to a league win and seeing the sloppiness worries me, it impacts the goals I think we can reasonably now expect for the season. The players and coach literally said after the game said they were sloppy. Are they wrong too? I sloppy game is a dire game.
Nah, dire is way, way worse than sloppy. No one is saying you can't ask for more and none of us have said that that was an outstanding performance, but you're being very hyperbolic here.
I think what is happening, in part, is we have got good enough to game manage.
Our guys do a lot more travel than the other sides, except Perth and the team in the ACL. We also have a bunch of players coming back from injury, building up minutes and top match fitness.
We used to have a lot of games against sides like Sydney when we would be competitive and pushing for a win or a seemingly deserved draw, and they would then turn it on with 5 or 15 minutes of intensity, pace and quality. And take a game away from us. They were good enough to beat us at 90% and occasionally had to go to 100% to beat off the nuisance we were. A generalization, but that happened often enough.
We're doing that to other sides now. And managing the impact of our greater travel load and fitness rebuild after the injuries. Albeit we are not doing it as comfortably as the Sydney, Victory and City sides of the past were able to do. So we look a bit limp and fragile when our intensity drops and we rely on defence. I don't think it is necessarily a deliberate thing, but tired players back off a bit and make errors that put the team on the back foot. And games ebb and flow.
And then, in the past, the playoffs started and the good sides would lift to 110% and we invariably could not quite match them.
Sunday was one of the first times I felt we were able to up a level - with the help of the substitutes - and do enough to take a game away from a pretty decent opposition. We were extremely good for that 10 minutes.
Adelaide created plenty in that game. I don't think you can put all that down to us being poor. But we were good enough to beat them.
It's the 2nd game in a row, the Nix have got a big boost from the bench. Same happened in Perth when Kraev, Sala & Zawada came on. The Nix bossed the home team, just couldn't get a goal.
In recent seasons, the Nix have got squat out of their substitutes - often being Weenix youngsters.
Another quality win for the Phoenix but I don't believe Ben Old is getting media attention he deserves. In my opinion his technique with ball at feet is quite unique and brilliant to watch. I believe he is the single most exciting youngster to play for the phoenix if not the A-league and has to be on watch list of scouts in Europe. Commentators obviously mention his quality but I feel he's even better than the recognition he's getting. Quick, brilliant with ball, quick passing, and I'd say very good at winning ball. Players like Daniel Arzani who was at Celtic very good player but I'd have Ben Old any day this guys a machine and will be the key man if we are going to win title. He appears to lack a liitle confidence in 1st couple seasons for Phoenix and he didn't have an impact but now different player and only getting better.
Old is a beast. I can’t be the only one thinking he’s getting better and better every game.
Also want to shoutout Conchie. A lot of people including myself were doubting his ability at this level in his first couple matches. He’s been improving pretty noticeably with each game as well imo. Not quite there yet but next season he could be a bolter.
Italiano said this yesterday, post game. Old's ability will only be fully recognized in NZ, once he's overseas somewhere killing it.
What i find impressive is this kid is supposedly carrying an ankle injury which needs rest to fully heal, yet he is still playing 90 and beating players for fun.
Italiano said this yesterday, post game. Old's ability will only be fully recognized in NZ, once he's overseas somewhere killing it.
What i find impressive is this kid is supposedly carrying an ankle injury which needs rest to fully heal, yet he is still playing 90 and beating players for fun.
Pretty sure that Italiano said he's now fully over that injury (so the story has changed), and no rest is needed.
Italiano said this yesterday, post game. Old's ability will only be fully recognized in NZ, once he's overseas somewhere killing it.
What i find impressive is this kid is supposedly carrying an ankle injury which needs rest to fully heal, yet he is still playing 90 and beating players for fun.
