We need central midfield depth in particular. A midfield of Riera, Lia and Carlos is not a league winning midfield. Especially not when your next cab off the rank is Ridenton.
Contracted Players - Return of the Long Pins
We need central midfield depth in particular. A midfield of Riera, Lia and Carlos is not a league winning midfield. Especially not when your next cab off the rank is Ridenton.
Angst angst angst.
I wouldn't write off Boxall as a CB based on that one game where he was chucked in there and stunk the place up.
With a full off-season and a few games under his belt to get up to speed I still think he can turn into a very handy CB for us, and should be starting next year. With Siggy or Dura is the real question. Dura would be my pick as long as he can get rid of whatever bug he had at the end of this season.
When Siggy has been out this year, the defence has been absolutely dreadful.
9 goals in the two games he didn't play.
I wouldn't write off Boxall as a CB based on that one game where he was chucked in there and stunk the place up.
With a full off-season and a few games under his belt to get up to speed I still think he can turn into a very handy CB for us, and should be starting next year. With Siggy or Dura is the real question. Dura would be my pick as long as he can get rid of whatever bug he had at the end of this season.
I'm sick of that though, aren't you?
I'm sick of saying "oh, that player that we signed that isn't a child, he could turn out okay you know...sure he played those games where he was woeful, but I still think he could be okay based on the tea leaves in my earl gray etc etc"
You're talking about him to start, don't forget. I'm okay with having someone like that on the bench, if we have to.
When Siggy has been out this year, the defence has been absolutely dreadful.
Agree, but there have also been times when he has played and we have honked defensively.
All we want is a less shit football team.
All we want is a less shit football team.
Bollocks to that..... I wouldnt mind one that actually wins something
What about giving Leo a run at the EPL game in July if he's still around?
I like this idea.
I wouldn't write off Boxall as a CB based on that one game where he was chucked in there and stunk the place up.
With a full off-season and a few games under his belt to get up to speed I still think he can turn into a very handy CB for us, and should be starting next year. With Siggy or Dura is the real question. Dura would be my pick as long as he can get rid of whatever bug he had at the end of this season.
I'm sick of that though, aren't you?
I'm sick of saying "oh, that player that we signed that isn't a child, he could turn out okay you know...sure he played those games where he was woeful, but I still think he could be okay based on the tea leaves in my earl gray etc etc"
You're talking about him to start, don't forget. I'm okay with having someone like that on the bench, if we have to.
I wouldn't write off Boxall as a CB based on that one game where he was chucked in there and stunk the place up.
With a full off-season and a few games under his belt to get up to speed I still think he can turn into a very handy CB for us, and should be starting next year. With Siggy or Dura is the real question. Dura would be my pick as long as he can get rid of whatever bug he had at the end of this season.
I'm sick of that though, aren't you?
I'm sick of saying "oh, that player that we signed that isn't a child, he could turn out okay you know...sure he played those games where he was woeful, but I still think he could be okay based on the tea leaves in my earl gray etc etc"
You're talking about him to start, don't forget. I'm okay with having someone like that on the bench, if we have to.
Still sounds to me like you're defending him based on the idea of him being a good centre back.
The only time I've really seen him play as a centre back was for the All Whites against Japan and...well...
Am I the only one who thinks Michael Boxall is a better right back and can certainly do a job there at A-League level?
I wouldn't write off Boxall as a CB based on that one game where he was chucked in there and stunk the place up.
With a full off-season and a few games under his belt to get up to speed I still think he can turn into a very handy CB for us, and should be starting next year. With Siggy or Dura is the real question. Dura would be my pick as long as he can get rid of whatever bug he had at the end of this season.
I'm sick of that though, aren't you?
I'm sick of saying "oh, that player that we signed that isn't a child, he could turn out okay you know...sure he played those games where he was woeful, but I still think he could be okay based on the tea leaves in my earl gray etc etc"
You're talking about him to start, don't forget. I'm okay with having someone like that on the bench, if we have to.
Still sounds to me like you're defending him based on the idea of him being a good centre back.
The only time I've really seen him play as a centre back was for the All Whites against Japan and...well...
He did play CB in the first game of the season next to Siggy. Went ok. Maybe Dura/Boxall are similar types of CB and not the best next to each other
I wouldn't write off Boxall as a CB based on that one game where he was chucked in there and stunk the place up.
With a full off-season and a few games under his belt to get up to speed I still think he can turn into a very handy CB for us, and should be starting next year. With Siggy or Dura is the real question. Dura would be my pick as long as he can get rid of whatever bug he had at the end of this season.
I'm sick of that though, aren't you?
I'm sick of saying "oh, that player that we signed that isn't a child, he could turn out okay you know...sure he played those games where he was woeful, but I still think he could be okay based on the tea leaves in my earl gray etc etc"
You're talking about him to start, don't forget. I'm okay with having someone like that on the bench, if we have to.
Still sounds to me like you're defending him based on the idea of him being a good centre back.
The only time I've really seen him play as a centre back was for the All Whites against Japan and...well...
Only other games I can think of off the top of my head are the recent one and the opener last season when IIRC he didn't do too bad. But he played CB for a few seasons in the MLS and was signed as a CB. I'll admit I am largely basing this on speculation but he has at least 3 advantages over Siggy and Dura - height, pace, and age. Worth a shot on that basis alone I reckon. Especially the pace bit. Every time we've tried to play a high line the last few seasons we've been ripped apart, because our CBs are too slow. But playing a high line makes the pressing/passing game that Ernie is trying to develop that much easier because it puts your players closer to each other.
I wouldn't write off Boxall as a CB based on that one game where he was chucked in there and stunk the place up.
With a full off-season and a few games under his belt to get up to speed I still think he can turn into a very handy CB for us, and should be starting next year. With Siggy or Dura is the real question. Dura would be my pick as long as he can get rid of whatever bug he had at the end of this season.
I'm sick of that though, aren't you?
I'm sick of saying "oh, that player that we signed that isn't a child, he could turn out okay you know...sure he played those games where he was woeful, but I still think he could be okay based on the tea leaves in my earl gray etc etc"
You're talking about him to start, don't forget. I'm okay with having someone like that on the bench, if we have to.
Still sounds to me like you're defending him based on the idea of him being a good centre back.
The only time I've really seen him play as a centre back was for the All Whites against Japan and...well...
Only other games I can think of off the top of my head are the recent one and the opener last season when IIRC he didn't do too bad. But he played CB for a few seasons in the MLS and was signed as a CB. I'll admit I am largely basing this on speculation but he has at least 3 advantages over Siggy and Dura - height, pace, and age. Worth a shot on that basis alone I reckon. Especially the pace bit. Every time we've tried to play a high line the last few seasons we've been ripped apart, because our CBs are too slow. But playing a high line makes the pressing/passing game that Ernie is trying to develop that much easier because it puts your players closer to each other.
Not sure if you meant that the Japanese national team = average A league side.
They are not even close.
I wouldn't write off Boxall as a CB based on that one game where he was chucked in there and stunk the place up.
With a full off-season and a few games under his belt to get up to speed I still think he can turn into a very handy CB for us, and should be starting next year. With Siggy or Dura is the real question. Dura would be my pick as long as he can get rid of whatever bug he had at the end of this season.
I'm sick of that though, aren't you?
I'm sick of saying "oh, that player that we signed that isn't a child, he could turn out okay you know...sure he played those games where he was woeful, but I still think he could be okay based on the tea leaves in my earl gray etc etc"
You're talking about him to start, don't forget. I'm okay with having someone like that on the bench, if we have to.
Still sounds to me like you're defending him based on the idea of him being a good centre back.
The only time I've really seen him play as a centre back was for the All Whites against Japan and...well...
Only other games I can think of off the top of my head are the recent one and the opener last season when IIRC he didn't do too bad. But he played CB for a few seasons in the MLS and was signed as a CB. I'll admit I am largely basing this on speculation but he has at least 3 advantages over Siggy and Dura - height, pace, and age. Worth a shot on that basis alone I reckon. Especially the pace bit. Every time we've tried to play a high line the last few seasons we've been ripped apart, because our CBs are too slow. But playing a high line makes the pressing/passing game that Ernie is trying to develop that much easier because it puts your players closer to each other.
Not sure if you meant that the Japanese national team = average A league side.
They are not even close.
Boxall's never been given a good string of games in his preferred CB role cause:
A) he was needed at right back where's been fine, for a massive hulking CB, who's slow on the turn
B) ernie could't break up our stable and experienced CB pairing to reward Boxall because every other part of the pitch had people out position/less than 5 A league games/and or 17 years old.
He's a better footballer than siggie, suited to ernies game, and in a fair and just universe should win a starting place next season...
Best wishes to Stein and Leo. Fan of both players and seem great guys as well. All the best fellas.
Boxall's never been given a good string of games in his preferred CB role cause:
A) he was needed at right back where's been fine, for a massive hulking CB, who's slow on the turn
B) ernie could't break up our stable and experienced CB pairing to reward Boxall because every other part of the pitch had people out position/less than 5 A league games/and or 17 years old.
He's a better footballer than siggie, suited to ernies game, and in a fair and just universe should win a starting place next season...
All the best for Leo, always gave his all for us and a great club man. Hope he picks up a pro gig in Thailand or some where similar for his last couple of years of football
I fully expect to see Leo sign with a club in the MLS now.
Boxall's never been given a good string of games in his preferred CB role cause:
A) he was needed at right back where's been fine, for a massive hulking CB, who's slow on the turn
B) ernie could't break up our stable and experienced CB pairing to reward Boxall because every other part of the pitch had people out position/less than 5 A league games/and or 17 years old.
He's a better footballer than siggie, suited to ernies game, and in a fair and just universe should win a starting place next season...
I love the way you can say this:
He hasn't played many games THEREFORE he's better than siggy AND suited to Ernie's game AND SO he should start next year?
I mean, I'm not a philosophy major or anything but there are some logical gaps the size of the Old Hard News in that argument.
What we know about Boxall is this:
1. he is a sub-par A-League right back
2. he was no worse than anyone else in a molestation of the All Whites by Japan (but didn't shine)
3. Ernie preferred Siggy to him, and then Luke Adams to him, at centre back
4. Ernie played him at centre back once and never again
5. he was an unsuccessful MLS centre back where he played 19 games in one season (Vancouver finished last) before being cut early in his second after never playing a first team game.
So, while I think Boxall is the future (and miles better than Adams) I think you are all getting carried away calling for him to replace Siggy immediately. He has yet to prove anything, anywhere and I'm sick of us putting players into our starting XI before they have proven themselves.
I'd like to see Boxall win his way into the A-League through the ASB Premiership like Sigmund had to. Or like Riera has done. This signing kids for the sake of Gareth's youth policy bullshit is taking us no place.
I'd like to see Boxall win his way into the A-League through the ASB Premiership like Sigmund had to. Or like Riera has done. This signing kids for the sake of Gareth's youth policy bullshit is taking us no place.
What about Tyler Boyd?
"youth policy bullshit" seems to be working well there.
So it's not as black-and-white as you say.
Boxall has already proved he is good enough to start.
Although, if Fenton is fit again next season, it's not yet clear who should play right back.
Boxall's never been given a good string of games in his preferred CB role cause:
A) he was needed at right back where's been fine, for a massive hulking CB, who's slow on the turn
B) ernie could't break up our stable and experienced CB pairing to reward Boxall because every other part of the pitch had people out position/less than 5 A league games/and or 17 years old.
He's a better footballer than siggie, suited to ernies game, and in a fair and just universe should win a starting place next season...
I love the way you can say this:
He hasn't played many games THEREFORE he's better than siggy AND suited to Ernie's game AND SO he should start next year?
I mean, I'm not a philosophy major or anything but there are some logical gaps the size of the Old Hard News in that argument.
What we know about Boxall is this:
1. he is a sub-par A-League right back
2. he was no worse than anyone else in a molestation of the All Whites by Japan (but didn't shine)
3. Ernie preferred Siggy to him, and then Luke Adams to him, at centre back
4. Ernie played him at centre back once and never again
5. he was an unsuccessful MLS centre back where he played 19 games in one season (Vancouver finished last) before being cut early in his second after never playing a first team game.
So, while I think Boxall is the future (and miles better than Adams) I think you are all getting carried away calling for him to replace Siggy immediately. He has yet to prove anything, anywhere and I'm sick of us putting players into our starting XI before they have proven themselves.
I'd like to see Boxall win his way into the A-League through the ASB Premiership like Sigmund had to. Or like Riera has done. This signing kids for the sake of Gareth's youth policy bullshit is taking us no place.
3. is wrong in regards to Luke Adams.
Also..
Tyler Boyd/Louis Fenton are good examples of signing kids. Both standouts at their level. But Luke Adams wasn't. Neither was JBS in Australia, he only stood out in an average league and not for his country. What about other NZ U20 standouts say Storm Roux and Bill Tuiloma? I think the NZ talent is there, we just need to sign the right ones.
BTW, didn't Boxall have time at Auckland City before going to the States/Canada? I'm sure being a MLS player and an All White outweighs coming through ASB Premiership. Can't see the relevance of that argument.
Rare post for me here.
Assuming that all our currently contracted players aren't released early, we have 5 spots left to fill. I would look for:
1x Fullback Cover
Timmins covers LB & CB, JBS covers LB & RB - one of these guys is likely
1x Box to Box midfielder (import?)
Pretty much a Lia upgrade who is also capable of playing DM if Riera is out. Would love a physical presence Engelaar type. Needs to be able to distribute ball well but also carry ball forward and provide goal threat.
1x Midfield cover
A Tim Payne or Chris James player capable of covering a multitude of midfield positions. Mainly looking for an upgrade on Ridenton / Hicks - a player who is capable of having an impact on a game while also not being a defensive liability.
1xNumber 9 (import?)
Obviously losing Stein means we are in need of a goal scorer and Brockie isn't the man for me. Issue is they will likely need to be an import.
1xVersatile attacker
Preferably Kosta, but potentially Ifill - another threat up front or someone who can come on for carlos and offer something different.
Biggest issue is figuring out how we use the import spot.. I'd probably use it on the Striker.. although signing Engelaar could be good fun.
It's hard to be excited for next season if signing players like Shaun Timmins are our idea of building a playoff quality squad.
WARNING: THIS POST CONTAINS TRACES OF FANTASYLAND
So the two big unknowns are at CM & ST. I think we could get an aussie CM with decent experience - someone like Paartalu or Celeski could be the kind of guy that could be targeted to be brought back from Asia. The ST is super important and a shot in the dark on who it could be but after seeing Defoe's (expensive) success for Toronto, I would love a similar type player - could see a Zamora or Darren Bent having a similar effect here.
Moss
Fenton Sigmund Durante Muscat
Riera Paartalu Cunningham
Hernandez
Barbarouses Bent
Italiano, Lia, James, Krishna, Boyd
I think with the right structure, that side could do alright. Will our defence be good enough? Probably not. But if we really want to be aiming high then this is the type of direction we really do need to be aiming for IMO.
Again, apologies for the fantasyland thinking.
People won't like this but in terms of strikers I think we are just going to have to live with Brockie. A strike force of Brockie/Krishna/Cunningham/Boyd is hardly one of great quality and almost certainly one of the worst in the league. However, our defence is definitely the worst in the competition right now. That is where we need to invest. It seems ridiculous to spend 3 of 5 import sports on Krishna, Cunningham and an unnamed striker. The remaining import spot should be used on a defender or defensive midfield player. Kosta or another attacking player would be a nice to have but is not as essential as a quality centre back.
If playing well in the ASBP is our new prerequisite for signing does that mean we can expect Clapham and Mulligan to pick up contracts next season?
I don't think that Sigmund or Dura individually have done much wrong this season and I'd place the blame on our poor defensive performances on a lack of a midfield screener in front of them, tactics that leave us vulnerable to quick counter attacks, and injuries which meant that there was no chance for players to settle into roles or get used to playing together. However, playing a pair of aging CBs together is risky, and neither of them were particularly quick or agile in the first place. As I also said earlier, extra pace in defence will help us play a higher line and make us less vulnerable to counterattacks if we want to play possession football. Boxall is simply the obvious choice for Ernie to try out as a new starting CB to address this, and I hope he gives him a good chance to prove he can do it over this extensive preseason we hear so much about. If the Box looks pants doing that then back to Siggy/Dura, who have played together so much thay they are a known quantity and completely used to playing alongside each other already.
People won't like this but in terms of strikers I think we are just going to have to live with Brockie. A strike force of Brockie/Krishna/Cunningham/Boyd is hardly one of great quality and almost certainly one of the worst in the league. However, our defence is definitely the worst in the competition right now. That is where we need to invest. It seems ridiculous to spend 3 of 5 import sports on Krishna, Cunningham and an unnamed striker. The remaining import spot should be used on a defender or defensive midfield player. Kosta or another attacking player would be a nice to have but is not as essential as a quality centre back.
if this is the case we are going to need a decent goal scoring midfield - whcih we dont currently have - no investment in the front men will mean some very dry dull low scoring games.
According to this Stuff story, Ernie is close to resigning JBS, and Shaun Timmins. The former is an Aussie, and the latter will take an import spot.
Are there really no Kiwis as good as these two?
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/9937555/Huysegems-Bertos-offloaded-by-Phoenix
neither good enough to start for a top 4 side so of course we're snapping them up. I'm so demoralised right now, we're going to end up filling our squad with rubbish before we've even started looking at the international market. There's 6 months to go! Cool your jets, not exactly going to have the world converging on wellington so sign either of these two.
We need central midfield depth in particular. A midfield of Riera, Lia and Carlos is not a league winning midfield. Especially not when your next cab off the rank is Ridenton.
it's not just depth, it's quality we need
Smithy - you be trippin. Pause and read the post you excitable little fellah:)
I wouldn't write off Boxall as a CB based on that one game where he was chucked in there and stunk the place up.
With a full off-season and a few games under his belt to get up to speed I still think he can turn into a very handy CB for us, and should be starting next year. With Siggy or Dura is the real question. Dura would be my pick as long as he can get rid of whatever bug he had at the end of this season.
I'm sick of that though, aren't you?
I'm sick of saying "oh, that player that we signed that isn't a child, he could turn out okay you know...sure he played those games where he was woeful, but I still think he could be okay based on the tea leaves in my earl gray etc etc"
You're talking about him to start, don't forget. I'm okay with having someone like that on the bench, if we have to.
Still sounds to me like you're defending him based on the idea of him being a good centre back.
The only time I've really seen him play as a centre back was for the All Whites against Japan and...well...
Physically, he has all the attributes. But every time I've seen him play centre back his positioning has been absolutely woeful. I agree with you, there's really no evidence yet that he's going to be an A-League centre back. He's played less than 40 pro games for generally losing clubs
I'd like to see Boxall win his way into the A-League through the ASB Premiership like Sigmund had to. Or like Riera has done. This signing kids for the sake of Gareth's youth policy bullshit is taking us no place.
What about Tyler Boyd?
"youth policy bullshit" seems to be working well there.
So it's not as black-and-white as you say.
Boxall has already proved he is good enough to start.
Although, if Fenton is fit again next season, it's not yet clear who should play right back.
Actually it is pretty black and white.
Tyler Boyd has proved what exactly? Score some goals this year did he? I think the kid has promise, but to use James Dean's test (which I like) he's nowhere near good enough to start for a top 4 club.
Compare him to Riera/Sigmund/Rojas - all of whom did a solid apprenticeship in the ASB Premiership and all of whom were effective from the get go.
What we seem to want to do is sign these kids straight out of school and teach them to be pros by starting them in our first team.
Do you know why we want to do that? Because it will win? No. Because it's cheap. And because then the owners can blame New Zealand's small talent pool/New Zealand Football's development programme/the phase of the moon/etc etc for the team's failure.
We have only had one moderately successful period at the Phoenix, and it's when we signed the likes of Andrew Durante, Paul Ifill, Chris Greenacre, Leo Bertos, Tim Brown, Mark Paston etc etc as 20-something established pros. Some more successful than others, but all grown ups, and all with established pedigrees.
If the owners want to develop Kiwi kids, awesome. Sort out your Academy and do a decent job of it.
Fair points Smithy, but to be honest I very much doubt that having an excuse for potential failure came into the owners' thinking when they set out this approach
The idea of signing and giving game time to teenagers like Boyd, Fenton and Ridenton is that hopefully when they are in their 20's they will be very good A-league players for us. From what I have seen from those three I think that with the right nurturing they will be good for us down the track. Because if we don't develop our own youngsters we will have to continually go back to the market as our main resort for getting players. The trouble is people want these kids to have an instant impact....it does not work that way. Without a youth league we just have to play these kids and hope that they work out. Not ideal I know...but thats our reality.
We were crap this year for a number of reasons. But the kids were only part of the picture.....there were plenty of the senior guys who you could point the finger at for not performing this season. The last game we fielded a senior midfield of Lia, Muscat, Kenny and Carlos.....and they were collectively shit.............. and they will all be back next season.
I think it's a failing of trying to run a football club like a regular business - trying to cut costs at every opportunity because the club is losing money. I know a few of us have always had concerns with Welnix's stated goal of making the club break even, because frankly there's pretty much no chance of it ever happening and focusing on it as a goal is just going to erode the club slowly. Signing kids is dirt cheap, and if you get lucky one will be a gem and you can sell him on for a bit of coin. But it's incredibly hard to win without some maturity and experience in the squad too. And losing games with no name kids isn't going to bring the punters in.
Yes football is a business and people make a lot of money off it but those people aren't the club owners, they're elite players and agents, marketers, media companies, etc.
Another example is the traveling roadshow matches - Welnix trying to save money but not considering how that is disengaging the Wellington public, so home crowds get smaller so they threaten to take more games on the road. It might seem to them that they are making back some of the money they are losing but what they are also doing is ruining the soul of the club. Not to mention placing an extra burden on the team by adding more travel and removing some of the homeground advantage.
I think it's a failing of trying to run a football club like a regular business - trying to cut costs at every opportunity because the club is losing money. I know a few of us have always had concerns with Welnix's stated goal of making the club break even, because frankly there's pretty much no chance of it ever happening and focusing on it as a goal is just going to erode the club slowly. Signing kids is dirt cheap, and if you get lucky one will be a gem and you can sell him on for a bit of coin. But it's incredibly hard to win without some maturity and experience in the squad too. And losing games with no name kids isn't going to bring the punters in.
Yes football is a business and people make a lot of money off it but those people aren't the club owners, they're elite players and agents, marketers, media companies, etc.
Another example is the traveling roadshow matches - Welnix trying to save money but not considering how that is disengaging the Wellington public, so home crowds get smaller so they threaten to take more games on the road. It might seem to them that they are making back some of the money they are losing but what they are also doing is ruining the soul of the club. Not to mention placing an extra burden on the team by adding more travel and removing some of the homeground advantage.
Bring back Terry.
I think it's a failing of trying to run a football club like a regular business - trying to cut costs at every opportunity because the club is losing money. I know a few of us have always had concerns with Welnix's stated goal of making the club break even, because frankly there's pretty much no chance of it ever happening and focusing on it as a goal is just going to erode the club slowly. Signing kids is dirt cheap, and if you get lucky one will be a gem and you can sell him on for a bit of coin. But it's incredibly hard to win without some maturity and experience in the squad too. And losing games with no name kids isn't going to bring the punters in.
Yes football is a business and people make a lot of money off it but those people aren't the club owners, they're elite players and agents, marketers, media companies, etc.
Another example is the traveling roadshow matches - Welnix trying to save money but not considering how that is disengaging the Wellington public, so home crowds get smaller so they threaten to take more games on the road. It might seem to them that they are making back some of the money they are losing but what they are also doing is ruining the soul of the club. Not to mention placing an extra burden on the team by adding more travel and removing some of the homeground advantage.
Bring back Terry.