All Whites' Dead End Road To Russia 2018

If I'm the coach of Argentina or Chile and we end up in 5th, I'm putting out my best side and looking to make a statement. Besides, they don't want to be risking an inexperienced or cobbled-together side ballsing it up. 

Also bear in mind that players from these national teams already do a ton of travel to play for their national teams, and in the case of Messi everything I've seen and read suggests that he is really passionate about playing for Argentina, with his retirement being an emotional reaction to losing a World Cup and two Copa finals in three years.

I hear what you are saying, but in your scenario their Team B would simply need to travel here early and acclimatise ahead of their away leg, that they do not have to win by much.  It is their players that do not have to travel at all that would win the their home leg for them.  

Sorry to sound defeatist, but my point is about the difference in team depth, and not just individual quality. Any of the CONMEBOL countries, even Venezuela, could easily field two separate teams for two different legs; and those placed mid-table (5th out of ten teams) is simply very good indeed. In contrast, we simply do not have players of good quality to rotate for the intercontinental travel if the 2nd leg is in South America, as you say.

You are allowed 23 players for the two games, I'm not sure how many players you expect to not even travel out here, but if it happens I can see maybe two, three at most. It sounds like you're expecting two totally different squads.

That is easily close to half a squad that maybe travels to NZ but does not need to play. 

Rofl at anyone who thinks they dont send their best team to the first game in a two match series to qualify for the world cup.

But you can't be sure your 14 or 15 man squad is enough. What happens if they come out here and two or three players get injured in training or the warm-up? Or it's 0-0 after 70 minutes and the coach thinks "I really wish we had Messi or Higuain to bust this game open"?

EDIT:  I think Messi would travel at least. He might not play or only come off the bench, but I don't think they'll be as precious with his as to have him stay in Spain or Argentina.

Japan friendly confirmed.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/nz-teams/96...

Sounds like was an option for a 2nd game in this window but not taken

http://www.nzfootball.co.nz/all-whites-to-play-japan-in-october/

Return of the fatties?

I'm honestly so excited. I keep checking the CONMEBOL table - it really is neck and neck. If i can make it (price/ticket availability etc) i'll fly over from Melbourne and come to the first leg playoff at the Cake tin. When I was living in Auckland I drove down to watch the Mexican's beat us 4-2 - what an incredible atmosphere that was.

I think we should be proud of the lads, whatever the result. Whichever team we play in the playoff is going to be very difficult but hopefully we get a favorable draw. If we create enough of an atmosphere for the first leg, maybe we can do our part for the lads? 

BRING ON NOVEMBER!

There's brief 1 minute audio bite, in this link whereby Hudson outlines why they chose just the one friendly. 

http://www.nzfootball.co.nz/all-whites-to-play-japan-in-october/

It sounds as much like getting the players back to their clubs a little early (as opposed to later if it was 2 games) at end of this window, and so thereby keeping the clubs onside for the all important November window (South American playoff games).

As Hudson states October can be a very busy time with various club comps - eg MLS playoffs start late October, and AWs now have up to 4 players (Musa, Marinovic, Colvey, Boxall) who could be involved - so care needed to work with the various club coaches, if asking for a few favours like an early release for November etc.

Hopefully Reid is available for this Japan game - surely he is due at least a few months of being injury free for AWs!

I don't think neither Argentina nor Chile would play a B side. The pression from the fans to qualify for the WC would be huge and therefore their coaches would have to play the best they have

As stated by someone earlier, there is no way they will play a B team... the WC is far too big a prize to potentially stuff up because the coach was too cocky. 

A loss to NZ is certain to lead to the unemployment line and would hardly do anyones CV good on that side of the world. They will play to win end of.

OK lads, I've read all the comments and decided to bow to your collective wisdom on this one (= no B team to travel from Sth America for their away leg). And yes it would be awesome to see La Albiceleste with Lionel Messi, or La Roja with Alexis Sanchez, in Welly.

I think the Oceania teams are actually historically weak at the moment.  We haven't been troubled for some time

Well apart from the Oceania Nations Cup where we only beat New Caledonia because their keeper dropped the ball on the line and we needed penalties to beat PNG in the final

I just hope that its Argentina....that would be so awesome at the Cake tin. A front three of Di Maria, Messi and Aguero.....with Dymbela tucked in behind. F**k me...what a line up. Thing is the Argies have been really shakey for quite a while. They have been worse than the sum of their parts. They will field their best 11 in the first leg...100%. They don't want to screw this up. 

99 times out of 100 we would have no show...but in football, anything can happen on the day. I just hope that all our senior experianced pros are available(Reid, Smith etc) and that Hudson does not go all weird and select his favourite kids. We will need our most experianced players on deck for these games.

My AW team

                  Mirankovich

        Boxall  Reid  Smith

Roux                               Wynne

          Themi    Weemac

Thomas                          Rojas

                  Wood

Having seen 9 games in 5 different countries (both domestic and international fixtures) throughout South America and Mexico last year, I can tell you that South American players playing overseas are definitely of a higher calibre than the ones playing in their domestic leagues.

Bringing a “B” team of solely domestic players would not be a good idea for the likes of Chile and definitely not Peru - however Argentina could most likely get away with it.

Disagree with your point about Venezuela. I think that the All Whites would almost be favourites against them and Bolivia (only 2 teams in South America where this is applicable) if we had our best XI – Bolivians aren’t great footballers and have only drawn 2 games away from the altitude of La Paz in their last three qualifying campaigns.

So if we are 0-5 down after first leg do all our stars get to return to their clubs early? ;>)

The thing is no coach in their right state of mind would risk taking their B side half-way around the planet and risk jeopardizing their chances of going to the WC.

What might be happening right now (not just for us) is NT coaches sweetening the deal with clubs by releasing players early if at all possible.

Come play off time, every single team will have their best team out there for the first leg.  A resounding victory may potentially result in players being released early (a-la Chris Wood and Ryan Thomas), although they will need to be 100% certain of qualifying or risk getting skinned alive if they don't.

The great thing about football is on its day, the under dogs can win.

The bad thing about this, is its played over two days!

That would be more a reflection on the quality of opposition they face in South America than on their overall ability. A much worse Venezuelan side thumped the All Whites 5-0 10 years ago. And while we may think our side is a bit better now, so is theirs.

CONMEBOL (South American Confederation) used to qualify that way until a decade ago when they switched to the current format.

Until CONMEBOL teams started playing 18 qualifiers, the All Whites held the world record for playing the most World Cup qualifying games for so many years (15 matches in 1981-82).

Political jiggery-pokery means that the smaller South American countries Guyana, Suriname and French Guiana aren't members of CONMEBOL although they are geographically in South America.

Instead they have been lumped in with CONCACAF because the bigger South American countries can't be bothered playing them.

I read that those three countries (French Guiana is a French Overseas Territory and can field a team of its own as Tahiti, New Caledonia etc. do in Oceania)  would prefer to be part of CONMEBOL with all the financial advantages etc. it would entail -  but their bigger neighbours block them.

In my opinion, FIFA should mandate that countries play in their own Confederation's competitions - Australia  should be a member of the Oceania Confederation. It shouldn't be determined by politics or a whim or what countries prefer .

Except for Israel who obviously can never play in their own Confederation (AFC) and have to play in UEFA because of hostility from their neighbours in the Middle East.

You can register now at Ticketek on the "Road to Russia 2017 waitlist" so you can be ahead of the queue to secure your tickets for the Intercontinental Playoff match:

http://premier.ticketek.co.nz/shows/show.aspx?sh=A...

No money needed yet  - just register to be offered priority when tickets are available in the next few weeks.

I respect your first-hand experience, but the reason I was not 100% convinced is this item from the last WC qualifiers:

"Fresh from guiding America to the Mexican league title, Miguel Herrera then came in for the two-legged tie against New Zealand and took the radical decision of selecting only home-based players. His strategy paid off as El Tri finally put their shaky form behind them to sweep to a 9-3 aggregate win and qualify for the world finals for the 15th time in all."

http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive/brazil2014/te...

And Mexico, with all due respect, is not Argentina.  In fact, they (Mexico) are a decent but not great performer in WC, going only as far as Round 16 in the last few decades. So Argentina may be excused for counting their blessing that Australia has gone from OFC to Asia, and that we are their opposition.

Last World Cup it was Uruguay vs. Jordan in the CONMEBOL - AFC Inter-Continental Play-off.

Uruguay fielded their strongest eleven in both legs, starting the second leg at home with the same eleven as started away a week before.

Despite having won 5-0 away.

Somewhat surprisingly the second leg was a 0-0 draw.

This is the Uruguay side that started the first leg away in Jordan:

Uruguay: Martin Silva, Maxi Pereira, Lugano, Godin, Caceres, Arevalo Rios, Rodriguez, Lodeiro (Pereira 70), Stuani (Ramirez 70), Cavani, Suarez (Forlan 81).

Subs Not Used: Castillo, Fucile, Gargano, Gimenez, Hernandez, Perez, Scotti, Gonzalez, Munoz.

Goals: Maxi Pereira 16, Stuani 42, Lodeiro 69, Rodriguez 78, Cavani 90

Seven days later, this was the side for the home leg in Montevideo (a 0-0 draw):

Uruguay: Martin Silva,  M. Caceres, Lugano, Maxi. Pereira, Godin, Arevalo Rios, Lodeiro, Rodríguez, Stuani, Cavani, Suárez,

Substitutes On: 

D. Forlán, G. Ramírez, A. Hernández   

Substitutes Out:

That Mexican team was a really unique case though. Herrera was brought in at short notice and decided (quite smartly it turned out) to play what was pretty much his club side with a few ring-ins because they already knew his system and each other. Its important to note that many of the most successful international teams have been built around a single club's style and players (Ajax and Holland in the 70s, Spain and Barca in the 00s, Italy and Juve or Inter at various times).

Yeah that on the face of it, was the most bizarre series of results for a two legged playoff ever. Wonder if the FIFA match fixing unit ever had a dig around?

Maybe we could just call him MV, TV?

Have done so but I thought it was just to get update emails....so if its priority then that's all good.

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Bringing a “B” team of solely domestic players would not be a good idea for the likes of Chile and definitely not Peru - however Argentina could most likely get away with it.

[/quote]

Peru haven't been to the World Cup since 1982!! They would bring nothing but their best team to NZ. They will be under immense pressure to beat us, if they claim that 5th spot.

No one is going to risk a place in the WC by playing a B side... can't believe people are even considering the prospect.

New Zealand and unattached.

People are still struggling to spell Wood (not Woods) so it's probably a lot to ask.

I would say the players didn't put 100% effort in as they had already qualified. Club sides will do this often when playing cup games with the certainty of having already qualified. Had Jordan scored 2 or 3 goals in quick succession, I think they would have picked up their game.

Fixed

The issue is that FIFA would have to make an intrinsically political call on whether they disqualify one, the other, or both teams. 

In the China/Taiwan case do the disqualify China, Taiwan or both? To disqualify just Taiwan would mean implicitly saying that China's claim over Taiwan is legitimate, which FIFA would never do, meaning that  their only option would be to disqualify both (this assumes of course that both sides would refuse to play the other, which I understand is the case in most of these situations). Doing that and following through would mean disqualifying China, Taiwan, both Koreas and the majority of the Middle East (were Israel shifted to the AFC). 

It seems like FIFA's options are to continue with the status quo, disqualifying a large proportion of the world, or making political judgement calls on who have legitimate claims over other nations territories. FIFA are never going to take the later two options meaning that the status quo (shifting Israel to UEFA, avoiding China v Taiwan etc) is their only workable solution at present.