New Zealand U-23s - Quali Whites

look bestie this could actually be quite an interesting and for that matter bloody important topic

What say you take a chill pill for a while 

Slightly random question (but still on topic, I think, and nothing to do with Deklan Wynne): If teams at the Olympics are allowed 3 overage players, was this also the case for the qualifiers?

Jeesus wept.....this discussion over eligibility helps fill in the off season but it appears that NZF has been winging it with player eligibility for ages.

As Midfielder pointed out with the Ibini situation in Australia(came to OZ at 1 yo..Non OZ parents, Grandparents) he needed FIFA clearance to play for OZ U20's...thats the FIFA rules.

So does that mean NZF illegally played Musa and Adams? What's Roux's situation? Apart from Durante and Smith have NZF ever applied to FIFA for a clearance of a non NZ born player?(who does not meet clause 7) Its beginning to look like NZF either did not understand the rules or chose to ignore them.

Either way this is an example of huge incompetence at NZF. In corporate terms they failed to implement good regulatory governance. Any company that had employees this negligent would be looking at some sort of discipline measures. Who was responsible for player eligibility clearances? They should be sacked

Do we need an inquiry into NZF practices? 

The first thing NZF should do now is fire off applications to FIFA asking for eligibility clearances for Wynn and probably Roux...and any other potential players who were not born in NZ. Hudson needs to line up players whom he can use for the WC qualifications....he needs to know as soon as possible who will be available. My understanding is that FIFA looks at it in a case by case basis. If you are not appearing to rort the system then they usually look favourably on the application.

If they don't do this they can't possibly select Wynn and probably Roux again. Hudson is going to have to find new LB and RB

Article 6 most likely doesn't apply but not for the reasons you suggest.

NZF may have been wrong all along in thinking that Wynne qualified under Article 6 because he has two nationalities. 

Actually, Wynne most likely no longer has South African nationality because according to media reports he became a New Zealand citizen and has held a NZ passport since January 2015. Tragically, this would have almost guaranteed the chance of success of an appeal to FIFA under Article 8 to change the Association for which he plays, because he is in fact probably no longer eligible to play for South Africa.

This will probably help Storm Roux's case too if he wants to apply under Article 8.

When a South African adopts another nationality when they are aged 18 or older, they automatically lose their South African nationality - unless they apply to retain it beforehand:

http://www.sahc.org.au/citizenship/Dual_Citizenship.htm

"The South African Citizenship Act provides for retention of South African citizenship PRIOR to the acquisition of a foreign citizenship. A condition of attaining dual citizenship for all South African citizens aged 18 years or older is that they must apply and be granted permission to retain their South African citizenship prior to the acquisition of a foreign citizenship.

If a South African citizen does not obtain this prior permission they will automatically lose their South African citizenship on voluntary acquisition of a foreign citizenship."

Ouch, that really puts him in a tough position. But Article 6 never applied, since Wynne's never had a nationality that entitled him to play for both NZ and SA (which is the meaning of Article 6).

And Article 8 doesn't apply to Wynne, as he never played for SA before (which is why Article 7 is applicable). Not sure about Roux though.

Had another thought. As the eligibility situation also effects other players, NZF really need to seek FIFA exceptions for them. In doing so, it could point towards them agreeing there was an eligibility issue with Wynne, therefore negating any appeal they have on bis eligibility. Might go back to process after all.

This confuses me... so he technically he now has only 1 nationality which means he wouldn't need to apply for permission as he can't represent more than one nation and can only play for New Zealand?

You remember Durante though, FIFA refused to provide a ruling as to his eligibility, the All Whites ended up playing him in a dead rubber and forced FIFA's hand by getting the other team to protest.

As was said previously there are hundreds of players around the world in this position yet FIFA only processes 30-40 applications a year, is this because most federations ignore the rule or is it because FIFA's beuracracy simply means that they don't ge through the applications that they get?

Its a bit wobbly isn't it? If he only got his NZ passport this January and NZF had applied for an exemption, how long would it of taken to come through?

With FIFA - who knows. But if that's what NZF did do, and didn't get the exemption, wouldn't the prudent thing have been not to play him and endanger the whole campaign that way? I mean, it's not as if the outcome of the entire tournament for the team depended on whether Wynne played or not. Not ideal for Wynne, but certainly better for NZF overall.

Also, if the SA citizenship thing is true, my understanding of the regulations is that without an exemption to play for NZ, he'd be ineligible for both SA and NZ (well, for NZ right now, but he can still attain eligibility). But it does seem a really shark situation for the player.

So he could technically be eligible for no one?

He played for NZ 20s in WC so can never play for SA?

No, because he was eligible to play for SA when he represented NZ at youth level. Unless he lost his SA passport when he got his NZ one, as Big Pete suggests might have happened.

Did anyone else see this (now removed) "story" on the Herald yesterday?

Ricki Herbert has been doing plenty of thinking since leaving New Zealand football. Photo / Getty

By Kris Shannon

Welcome to Midweek Fixture and, with Dylan Cleaver taking a few days off to fully appreciate Major League Baseball's All-Star festivities, Kris Shannon is filling his considerable boots.

THIS IS NOT AN OPINION

Ricki Herbert couldn't help but smile when the call arrived.Would he coach Papua New Guinea's under-23 team at the Pacific Games? He tried to play it cool but the voice in his head screamed two words: At last!His joy was hardly a result of the job offer itself - he was Ricki 'Undefeated' Herbert, after all, and Papua New Guinea were lucky to have him.No, his emotion came courtesy of an ulterior motive, a far-fetched plan cooked up months ago, a vengeful plot that finally had the chance to come to fruition.

It all started in the months after the All Whites squandered his services, when Herbert had watched with dismay as optimism began to build around new coach Anthony Hudson.All the talk of a long-term strategy targeting Russia 2018 has been disconcertingly assured on his successor's part, especially when boosted by the introduction of young players with questionable parentage but unquestionable pedigree.It had sounded like Hudson's All Whites were heading in the right direction and, simultaneously, as though Herbert's own considerable achievements could soon be overshadowed. And that just wouldn't do.

So with the same diligence with which he once pored over defensive formations, crafting the rearguard that would see him anointed as one of the world's great managerial masterminds, Herbert had turned his attention to law.Namely, the Fifa laws, a byzantine series of statutes and articles created by the brightest minds in the game. Herbert wanted to - nay, needed to - find a way to stop the All Whites in their tracks.And then he had spotted it. Article 7. Sweet, sweet Article 7. 

Were his former bosses aware of the rule? Unlikely. They were the same folks who lacked the foresight to keep Ricki 'The Wall' Herbert employed.But now, armed with Article 7 and the PNG job, they would quickly learn the error of their ways.The Pacific Games soon rendered the task almost too easy. 

Staying together in the same athletes' village, Herbert had unfettered access to every coach at the tournament.That included the Micronesia manager, who was only too eager to receive some pre-tournament defensive advice from Ricki 'Clean Sheet' Herbert. It also included Hudson, with whom he shared a convivial conversation - sorry, Ant, Herbert chuckled to himself, it's nothing personal.More importantly, though, once his own PNG side were somehow bundled from the tournament, it included the Vanuatu coach, whose team had just been knocked out by New Zealand in the semifinals.His new ally had never heard of Article 7, which was no surprise, really. Few were Herbert's intellectual peer. 

But, after showing him the rule book and the Wikipedia page of one Deklan Wynne, Herbert gained a willing disciple.Within days the All Whites' Olympic aspirations were crushed, their World Cup preparations thrown into disarray, and Hudson's reputation ruined.As for Herbert? He was happy but not completely fulfilled. If only he could get the A-League to deny the Phoenix a licence extension...

GIVE 'EM A TASTE OF KIWI...Just in case anyone was worried about his achievements being besmirched, lest we forget the way Ricki Herbert - and only Ricki Herbert - led the All Whites to be the only unbeaten nation at the 2010 World Cup. Don't ever let anyone tell you Ryan Nelsen deserved the credit, Ricki

Yup. Absolutely atrocious.

Didn't want to give it any oxygen. Not even worthy of any comment.

Yes, but SA have their rules and I would suggest that the majority of those who have two passports haven't notified SA of their new citizenship.

if you are in the public eye (like Wynne and for that matter Fitzgerald), then it is playing with fire.

Fitzgerald however has done the right thing. He is a Japanese citizen and is not messing with their rules. He isn't playing for New Zealand and is playing as a Japense citizen in the J league.

Wynne however played in a full international for NZ even before he had a NZ passport!! Technically not messing with SA citizenship rules at that point. NZ football have never explained that little fire cracker of an issue and this also should also be a major part of the inquiry (when it happens - after we lose this appeal).

Someone needs to accept responsibility for that. There is no hiding behind pleading dumb and stupid interpretations of statutes on that issue.

Yep, pretty common for people from countries that don't allow dual citizenships to simply not notify their old country, the NZ government certainly doesn't do it.

Apparently South Africa does allow dual citizenship, but you have to apply for it.

My sauces tell me Ricki was almost immediately on the phone with lawyers at the ready...and fair enough too!

A couple of us mentioned it Smithy. What surprises me is that you can read that (as I and it seems a few others have) and take it as fact.

What the hell was Kris Shannon thinking when he wrote that?

the whole dual nationality thing with the former ex-country rescinding citizenship and nationality would have been the case for that German kid who got FIFA permission to play for the states.....As soon as you get another passport the German authorities consider you to be unGerman and it is extremely difficult to retain both nationalities.....the americans still saw it worthwhile to go to FIFA for an exemption even with the old nationality erased.

p.s. Rufer knew as much as Herbert to contribute to the great PNG conspiracy, even if we can be bothered talking about who whistle-blew on NZ's complete disregard for the rules.

very 'niche' audience that would find the humour in it. I laughed, a little. It was clever, but unnecessary. More like a conversation you'd have with former colleagues with common interests, than something you'd publish worldwide!

So assuming it was someone with ties to NZ football who leaked the information to our island cousins, who has the biggest axe to grind?

This bloke, on face-value -

...although I suspect it's not really his

...what about 'clever'?

It didn't even make sense, the whole thing was Ricki was going to beat NZF surely he would have played the disqualification card after NZ beat PNG.

Am I missing something here? was this published as satire?

Not sure how it was.. An inside thought that was made public

I wonder how close to the truth it was meant to be?

I personally thought it was satire right from the beginning but I can see how it could be taken the wrong way (or taken seriously)

Tell you what this has been a good week for lawyers.

Every week is a good week for lawyers :) Why can't we all just get along ????? [satire]

some poor or rich sod is going to be billed a lot of dubious hours to make up for the large quantity of posts by lawyers on this topic during the working day

Or you all could be lawyering in your spare time.  

Legal Aid probably, that's what they're for.

in good news the amount of posts on this thread per hour has noticably dropped.

it's a Friday, everyone is taking long lunches