New Zealand U-23s - Quali Whites

If he's not eligible then how the fudge did we run a world cup campaign, at home particularly without having cleared players?

Imagine if the host team was expelled from their own world cup!

You kind of wonder whether that lends credence to the theory that this was an inside job. Don't get the whole country embarrassed in our own living room, but wait for a different tournament to stick the dagger in.

With the scandal going on at FIFA at the time, probably the last thing they wanted was the host nation getting a result overturned... But my guess is that they just didn't check these things properly and they didn't know. FIFA really need to be on top of this sort of thing better. The money they have is phenomenal, so surely they could get a team of people to work on checking player eligibility, especially for every player in any big tournament, to ensure it's fair for all.

But that doesn't exonerate at all our own massive stuff-up here.

This question originally made me more hopeful that there had to have been a mistake made by OFC. Now it just makes me more worried about the extent of the clusterfudge that this appears to be.

As mentioned earlier, what is the status of Smith and Roux then? Have NZF gotten dispensation for them but forgot about Wynne?

Smith got clearance back in 2010:

"Smith's clearance to play for New Zealand arrived only 48 hours before his confident debut against Mexico in Los Angeles last Wednesday"

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/3414173/Teen-Tommy-the-All-Whites-new-hired-gun

Haven't seen anybody who knows about Roux...

When Hudson conducted his global search for players that might be eligible for the All Whites, the NZF must have studied the eligibility criteria extremely closely.

But this occurred after Deklan, and others, were already in the system, so maybe they took it for granted that their eligibility was valid.

Although NZF have to take responsibility, could this debacle be a hangover from the pre Hudson/Martin regime?

I appreciate the sentiment, but don't think that's really practical. Like I said, the sheer amount of international matches being played is difficult enough to keep on top of everything. The additional issue is that ascertaining eligibility as under current regulations would entail accessing birth/citizenship/immigration records (and not just of the player in question, but his/her immediate family), and there's all sorts of privacy laws around that that would make it difficult, time consuming, and costly for FIFA to try to police.

I think we should really think about it this way: we all know (or at least should know) stealing is illegal. Now, if I get caught shoplifting, I can't defend myself by saying I didn't know - the reality is, I either knew, and I did it anyway, or I didn't know, but ignorance of the law is no legal defence. Furthermore, it's not the job of the police, or the Courts, to teach me about the law, but to appropriately censure me for breaking it. So if I get caught shoplifting, I have to undergo the appropriate punishment.

The same principle applies here - FIFA regulations are public (anyone with the Internet can access them), and national football associations should be familiar with them when entering teams to compete in FIFA tournaments. If they don't comply, and get caught, it's their fault and they have to receive the appropriate punishment.

Yeah I agree. Could well be the pinnacle of his playing career. Not sure if he'd be entirely happy with how it was achieved though.

Take a step back though, he'd already played for both the All Whites and the U20s at a World Cup.  It wasn't his first appearance

The key difference between the two situations appears to be the people involved i.e. someone within Vanuatu or the OFC wanted us out, and either that person/nation was not present at the U20 world cup to be able to do it, or their personal mandate could not be achieved by tipping off another country at that point.

Suggests it was deliberate and calculated this time round.

However, it still comes back to NZF and their poor administration in getting this wrong and enabling this to happen.

But like we've already said, FIFA don't do a thorough check on eligibility at match/tournament time - it is assumed that the national association had gone through due diligence.

Strongly suggests a tip off though.  Why would you be looking at player eligibility for a guy like that??

I'm still really dubious about this.  I think this is going to run and run

I suspect he doesn't have the exemption certificate, because we'd have brought it out by now and it would have been settled.

But it does look like an inside job, it's the kind of information that practically no-one outside of NZF and player's immediate family would know about.

It could be someone with ties at FIFA.  I think most people (ahem NZF....) could find out that he doesn't meet the four set criteria and therefore an exemption was required.  Whoever the whistleblower was, may have just made an enquiry at FIFA. 

Agree with that. 

Thing is though, as you say he is eligible for NZ so long as he has the certificate so all the reporting that he isn't eligible for NZ on a correct interpretation of the law is wrong. 

Can NZ make an argument from that?  Yes I think so.  Will it be completely convincing, who knows - will depend on the facts.  But if FIFA asks you to state your intention to play for your adopted country, and you've already played for them...or what if we'd been informed by OFC that this was an issue and had time to make the request from FIFA?  There are lots of scenarios that could play out here

8.3

What sharks me is that I'm sure Vanuatu would have never know about this.  Some one at the OFC did and whispered in their ears.  Why did this same person/s not bring this to NZs attention prior to the U20 WC and us voting against Sep?

Reeks of dodginess of FIFA epic proportions.

That's generous.

If he's only eligible with certification, and he isn't holding certification, then saying he is no eligible is totally correct.

I agree that NZF will try to run that argument (guys, come on, it's just a certificate...etc etc) but they're coming off a long run up if that's all they have.

Personally I wonder how will that affect our (NZF) warm and fuzzy relationship with OFC, not that it matters greatly in this case.

He'll still be elligible for the Presidents Cup though.

The way I see it, he's not eligible - but he could be if an exemption certificate was applied for, and granted (which you would expect should be a formality). But without it, he's in breach of Section 7, and therefore not eligible.

Now, if he doesn't have it, can NZF make a case that he would have got it if it had been applied for, and outline compelling reasons why it wasn't applied for? I don't think that anyone here knows the answer to that question, but the noises from NZF so far aren't encouraging on that front.

What I mean is he could become eligible essentially overnight

They will say "we submitted the list", no-one said anything and it was approved. 

"We were then told there was an issue that had been raised and it was going to be referred to FIFA - next thing there is a hearing that we aren't told about at which we are thrown out of the tournament." 

Clearly that gave us no opportunity to fix the issue and ensured that he played in a match that meant we were kicked out. 

Timing and how that process is handled is going to be crucial when theoretically we could have applied for the certificate right?

I imagine that FIFA will be extremely against any nation being 'let off the hook' for fielding a player without having the necessary eligibility approvals from FIFA. Last thing they want to do is start a 'play now, apply later' attitude going.

With FIFA corruptness how do you know this does not happen? The African nations that got penalised were all poor nations.  Nigeria, the  home of corruption did not get a mention.... Hu$£€¥h money?

My guess is that our entire appeal will be based around natural justice and us not being notified of, or allowed to attend, the hearing.

Does 8.3 cover gaining the exemption certificate?, is it somewhere else in the statutes?

being thrown out when you have made the final also sounds very harsh if guilty surly being fined would be enough of a warning to get things right.

A lot of ill feeling on here towards NZF, but we've been fudgeed round properly here by the OFC.  Joke tournament, completely sub-standard facilities clearly designed to hobble us.  Then this comes up late in the piece, strongest team kicked out.  The whole thing, it's just so shabby

I think there is also going to be a question around which rules applied to this competition.  We may argue that we were proceeding under the impression that the rules of the Pacific Games were the relevant ones.  Not a strong argument I think, but one we will probably make. 

disagree.

If you are going to say something is a joke and play at being a super-professional and too good for the OFC, you should be able to check the eligibility of your players.

end of.

This could have meant all kinds of embarrassment at the Under-20 WC in NZ, which was and should have been a huge high for NZ football.

It's not difficult. Even the least literate amongst us here were able to type Fifa statutes into google and come up with the eligibility rules within a few seconds and then check what the problem seemed to be. This seems to be well and truly on NZF. There should be coach after coach and administrator after administrator in the game who should have been aware of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vETxuL7Ij3Q

No, Section 8 refers to players who had played international football for a different country before, but are still eligible to switch over to a different country under FIFA regulations (Deklan doesn't fall in this category).

Exemption certificate is in essence a piece of paper from FIFA which grants a given player eligibility even if he/she does not meet the prima facie criteria if FIFA are satisfied that such grant doesn't break the spirit of the regulations, or would be contrary to natural justice (proper lawyers here can probably give a better explanation). But it has to be applied for, it can't be assumed as granted.

This is all missing the point - the bottom line is, if we have fielded an ineligible player (and nothing that NZF has said so far has indicated that that wasn't the case), then this is first and foremost NZF's failure.

So an exemption from the statutes.

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Appreciate it.

You want answers?

I think I'm entitled to.

You want answers?

I want the truth!

You can't handle the truth!

I think to be that black or white you have to have confidence I the process.  I'm keeping an open mind until I hear the facts