BAZEball - The Darren Bazeley Era

I think it's very funny reading through that article about the shambles Canadian soccer is in, and it is like "our players aren't even flying business class!" and "we don't get our squad together for long enough before games!" and "we aren't even going to be playing in the next window due to financial issues!" and thinking, hey, it's wishful thinking but maybe this could lead Herdman to quit and coach us instead!

But then you're like, hang on, we aren't playing in the next window either. We also weren't playing in a window last year that the players complained about, and nzf said it was for financial reasons. The players have to fly economy all the time on all whites duty. And we barely get a day or two before our games all the time because everyone has to fly so far. We have all the same problems but much worse. I think the Canadian shambles need to get a lot worse before we could expect we have a chance to steal herdman from them as a result.

Its a bit of a joke nothing has been announced at this point. 

imanixsupporter

I think it's very funny reading through that article about the shambles Canadian soccer is in, and it is like "our players aren't even flying business class!" and "we don't get our squad together for long enough before games!" and "we aren't even going to be playing in the next window due to financial issues!" and thinking, hey, it's wishful thinking but maybe this could lead Herdman to quit and coach us instead!

But then you're like, hang on, we aren't playing in the next window either. We also weren't playing in a window last year that the players complained about, and nzf said it was for financial reasons. The players have to fly economy all the time on all whites duty. And we barely get a day or two before our games all the time because everyone has to fly so far. We have all the same problems but much worse. I think the Canadian shambles need to get a lot worse before we could expect we have a chance to steal herdman from them as a result.

Really you are 100% sure the AWs (and Ferns for that matter) fly economy?

There was a story from Michael Burgess in the Herald last year during the playoff window. He was on the plane with the team on some flight, I don't remember which flight, but he reported some players were in business while some were in economy. I seem to remember this was a reasonably long flight in the region of at least 5 hours. 

I do not know in general how common it is for All Whites to be flying economy however. I suspect it varies for different flight lengths, and to not piss off clubs that are less happy with their players having to fly a long way for international games. 

"The B787-8 was nearly at full capacity, with only 20 of 252 seats unused. Ten All Whites enjoyed the business compartment (mostly Sunday's starting XI, though some players shared time), but most of the players and staff were in "cattle" class.

It showed the less than glamourous realities of international sport. Goalkeeper Oli Sail – the tallest member of the squad – had to contort his legs to fit in as he chatted next to Wellington Phoenix teammate Tim Payne, with a polite Japanese woman blissfully unaware of the status of those sharing her row."

Great to be with All Whites on journey from Barcelona to Doha, as the countdown begins.

A fascinating behind the scenes experience.

(Good team unity too, as some players swapped their business class seats with others halfway through...)https://t.co/INrpI6lFdG

— Michael Burgess (@mikeburgess99) June 7, 2022

I was on the same plane as the squad that flew Auckland-Buenos Aires, enroute to Lima in 2017. AWs were up in the pointy end of the plane for that long flight. Well Premium Economy. Noting that NZF only had about a month to plan that Nov 2017 travel schedule, Peru being confirmed as the AWs opponent in the preceding Oct 2017 FIFA window. 

coochiee

I was on the same plane as the squad that flew Auckland-Buenos Aires, enroute to Lima in 2017. AWs were up in the pointy end of the plane for that long flight. Well Premium Economy. Noting that NZF only had about a month to plan that Nov 2017 travel schedule, Peru being confirmed as the AWs opponent in the preceding Oct 2017 FIFA window. 

As that was a World Cup playoff FIFA wouldv'e been helping with the cost (if not covering it all)

The JourneyFan

coochiee

I was on the same plane as the squad that flew Auckland-Buenos Aires, enroute to Lima in 2017. AWs were up in the pointy end of the plane for that long flight. Well Premium Economy. Noting that NZF only had about a month to plan that Nov 2017 travel schedule, Peru being confirmed as the AWs opponent in the preceding Oct 2017 FIFA window. 

As that was a World Cup playoff FIFA wouldv'e been helping with the cost (if not covering it all)

FIFA covering costs doesn't guarantee things are still done correctly as they should be (Ryan's story about the food situation at their base in South Africa in 2010 springs to mind...)

Herdman's Canada just drew 2-2 with Guadeloupe in the Gold Cup. Come on John, time to jump off that sinking ship 

imanixsupporter

Herdman's Canada just drew 2-2 with Guadeloupe in the Gold Cup. Come on John, time to jump off that sinking ship 

At home in Toronto, no less. Searching up "Herdman" on Twitter gives a lot of people calling for his sacking, just seven months after he was the toast of the country. I even saw one person suggesting to replace him with ex-Western Sydney and Newcastle Jets coach Carl Robinson. 

They had come from being behind 0-1 at the break to lead, but conceded an own goal at 90+3'. The own goal came from debutant Jacen Russell-Rowe, who played against NZ at the U17 World Cup in 2019. Some saving grace for Herdman was that it was a Canada side missing the big guns of Davies, David, Buchanan, Eustaquio etc. Zac McGraw - long time Timbers centre-back teammate of Tuiloma - was also among the debutants.

Perhaps Herdman and NZF are playing chess while we all play checkers, because he has been making a lot of weird tactical/personnel choices recently, which naturally draw criticism when results play out like this one. One such today being playing a debutant defender in midfield. If he wants to be sacked, Canada Soccer might lack the funds.  

It also must be said, Guadeloupe are not an equivalent of New Caledonia or Tahiti. Their back four consisted of two guys with 1,355 and 1,792 Ligue 1 minutes this season (both at Corsican side Ajaccio) as well as a guy with 1,205 Swiss Super League minutes at runners-up Servette. They had a midfielder with 1,040 Ligue 1 minutes at Reims and 312 Serie A minutes at Torino this season. Their wingers, both at Ligue 2 Grenoble, had 1,792 and 2,426 minutes for a combined seventeen goals/assists. Their striker had ten goal contributions in 2,267 Belgian Pro League minutes at Oostende and even one of their substitutes had 2,294 Swiss Super League minutes at Sion this season. 

That's actually quite a formidable side and I wouldn't be unhappy with players of that pedigree or those numbers in the All Whites. Though Servette have already signed one Helsingør player this window, so hopefully they fancy double dipping. 

Carl Robinson previously coached Vancouver Whitecaps in the MLS so will be known to Canadians. He signed Marinovic to Vancouver, but was sacked there and was pretty unpopular with Whitecaps fans for a low possession negative counter attacking setup.

Another poor Canadian performance/result and plenty more herdman out tweets. If I was John I'd be very tempted to bail out and take the far cushier NZ role, where he could also coach his son. Everybody wins!

..except for the fact that he sure does love playing a back 3/5. Although this will all probably blow over when Canada beat Cuba and qualify for the next round anyway. That'll be enough to keep him in that job for the timebeing. I don't think Canada have the funds to pay off an existing coach and hire an expensive upgrade and I don't think Herdman will walk this early after making a grand statement of wanting to stay until 2026. 

Canada, NZ and Herdman can come to a gentleman’s agreement. JH released early to take up NZ role

Napier Phoenix

Canada, NZ and Herdman can come to a gentleman’s agreement. JH released early to take up NZ role

that would be really slow with the way the NZF fax machine is used.

Napier Phoenix

Canada, NZ and Herdman can come to a gentleman’s agreement. JH released early to take up NZ role

Could you imagine the consternation among those all too eager to kick NZF if he came in and lost his first couple friendlies, having Elliot play as a six and Rojas as a wingback... (sort of things he's doing right now with Canada) after being unceremoniously dumped out of Canada's set up. 

carlind

Napier Phoenix

Canada, NZ and Herdman can come to a gentleman’s agreement. JH released early to take up NZ role

Could you imagine the consternation among those all too eager to kick NZF if he came in and lost his first couple friendlies, having Elliot play as a six and Rojas as a wingback... (sort of things he's doing right now with Canada) after being unceremoniously dumped out of Canada's set up. 

The things that he is doing with the Canadian team are really damaging his reputation - if he does get the boot I really dont want to see his wrecking the positive intent from the squad at the mmoment. AS much as I dont think Bazely is the right man for the job he is at least letting the players drive the style they want to play.

Just now on Twitter

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fingers crossed it's not Bazely or Herdman.

But I'm dying to know who this #1 contender is that we have been waiting for.

The JourneyFan

Just now on Twitter

Screen Shot 2023-07-04 at 9.27.38 AM.png 69.52 KB

Haven't we heard this before?

33 minutes of morning remain…

I don't know how I feel about this:

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/sport/2023/07/football-new-zealand-football-appoints-interim-darren-bazeley-as-permanent-all-whites-coach.html

wow, just wow!
So after saying to Bazely "you're not our #1 preferred candidate" and delaying all these months for that #1 candidate they hire him!
WTF NZF!?!?!
Pragnell is an absolute bonefaced liar - tells us the group the applied initially wasnt up to the standard and they were targetting someone else, then months later says this process was perfect to test Bazely and see if he was uyp for the job"
So Bazely was the #1 target or not? If so, why not hire him when he first applied, if not, why hire him at all?

Utter farce, on every level.

So does this mean that we'll have the players leading the team as they have been in this "trial" period?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/132474736/darren-bazeley-given-all-whites-job-on-permanent-basis-after-serving-as-interim
perfectly highlights how bad the whole process has been

I just hope there is a clause in his contract that he can be disposed of cheaply in case the team performs poorly and somebody like Des becomes available at a later stage 

imanixsupporter

I just hope there is a clause in his contract that he can be disposed of cheaply in case the team performs poorly and somebody like Des becomes available at a later stage 

didnt see any mention of contract length, so hopefully it's only for a couple of years and not a 6 year appointment.

Another expat pom in charge of a nz team. Some things will never change at NZF. 

The organisation is a joke. Pragnells explanation of the process wow just wow. This guy Pragnell is on clown levels. 

We are as amateur as we can get. 

Anyway nothing to coach or support when the team can't complete games of football. Good luck to him.

Eek what a disaster of a process.. 

Think we've actually been playing ok these last few games but jeez the whole selection process has been ridiculous. 

Same old NZF. I don't think they could be more of a laughing stock if they tried to. I'm not even mad because I fully expected this level of incompetence.

theprof

imanixsupporter

I just hope there is a clause in his contract that he can be disposed of cheaply in case the team performs poorly and somebody like Des becomes available at a later stage 

didnt see any mention of contract length, so hopefully it's only for a couple of years and not a 6 year appointment.

For the 2026 World Cup cycle apparently, so I guess we see him in charge in the Americas given we'll likely still qualify.

We can safely say we've now found our status and position in the football world - middling to low average, with certain insurmountable defects.  Like any football culture we have some ebbs (82, 99, 2010), and some drop offs too, but ultimately there's a level, an equilibrium, that is rested on - and that's where we find ourselves now.  

We have a lot of people who like our sport and play it, especially children - and that is awesome, especially if they have positive experiences and develop a life habit of exercise and team sports.  If they're good enough to want to progress to elite or representative level, they'll encounter some really good people and some cool opportunities, but also a larger number of barriers based on ego, politics and pettiness.  If they get really good, and have the chance to play the sport professionally, they'll learn very quickly exactly where NZ sits.
 
We have people who follow and support our sport - a decent number, but in reality ranking about 4th or 5th nationally when things like merchandise, ticketing and media consumption are taken into account.  We like to think we're a lot bigger than we are, but we're not.  Nonetheless, that won't stop people in our sport complaining about how unfairly it gets treated.

Both of these aspects are middle to low average.  They're not appalling, but they're not amazing either.  They're just where it's at.  And today's announcement sums this up perfectly.  The organisation making the appointment is definitely not amazing, but also objectively not appalling - just very, very average.  And they've settled on a coach who is not amazing, but also not appalling.  There are grounds to argue their communications process has been unacceptable - and insulted the intelligence of the group that follows their sport - but in the end everything has just settled in as decidedly average.

We have some very good players in our national squad.  And some who aren't very good.  Some more good ones will appear, and so will other not good ones.  Some years, the good ones might be enough to make a decent starting lineup that earns some pleasing results - and that'll be great fun.  But the cycle will revert to the equilibrium level, and we'll be average again.

I've never met Mr Bazeley, and have no knowledge of him personally. I don't doubt he's hard working and professional, and people say he's a nice man.  As a fan, looking from the outside, his record and approach does little to make me think this is anything other than another default to average.  It's not his fault the organisation is so average - he didn't make them offer him this job.  But overall, just, yeh, average.

So I'm no angry - because I can't get angry if an organisation has acted in accordance with its nature and position in the world.  It's all just average.

Very underwhelming….. I’ll give him a chance though.
I had been prepared to give NZF some leeway on this too but it has been nothing less than a giant clusterfudge.

The decision to choose Hay over Des continues to cost us and will for years to come. Easily set us back a decade. There is no hope we can meet or exceed our potential. Just mediocrity and excuses to look forward to. 

Yeahcoulddo

Eek what a disaster of a process.. 

Think we've actually been playing ok these last few games but jeez the whole selection process has been ridiculous. 

The All Whites performances under him I don't mind. Its the U20 wc performances that scare me

saw someone on facebook said its a good appointment because NZ had 50% possession vs Sweden B LOL

imanixsupporter

The decision to choose Hay over Des continues to cost us and will for years to come. Easily set us back a decade. There is no hope we can meet or exceed our potential. Just mediocrity and excuses to look forward to. 

If anyone from SKY is on this forum, can you please just chuck on some replays of that U20 team in Poland that had good players, a good coach and played well... I know it's masochistic, like reading old love letters from the girlfriend you'll never get back, but, well, please... it'd be nice to think positively just for a few minutes again...

theprof

So does this mean that we'll have the players leading the team as they have been in this "trial" period?

Well if we look at the 2009-2010 AWs, where there seemed to be a lot of player power, it ain't likely a bad thing. Bazeley does seem a nice guy, bit of yes man, more willing to comply with the recommendations of the McKinnon Report. Happy to be nice to other NZF staffers even if he quietly doesn't rate or like them. Different to pricky 'my way or the highway' Hay.

Basically Bazely is an uninspiring choice, but also a low risk one. You look at other richer better resourced football nations - and you see it ain't always easy to recruit a more high profile inspiring gaffer. The USMNT resort back to the previous incumbent. China came to NZ in March with a guy (Serbian?) who Baze like had been through the age group ranks in China. Even the FA decided to stick with Arnold after a string of poor results in qualifying, and much of the Aus football media/pUblic calling for Arnie's head. The Grey Wiggle didn't do his thing against Peru, and it's a very different script for Arnold.

Apart from the June window (off season for most clubs) the AWs gaffer gets very little time with his players. Bazeley knows the group well, and seems happy to give alot of power to the senior players. Whether he can make future tough decisions like say dropping Tommy Smith (good mate of Wood's) out of future squads etc remains to be seen. That's where I have big doubts on coach DB, can he make those tough selection calls.

But otherwise you'd agrue he's done okay so far. Beaten a Chinese team ranked higher than us, got smacked by a much better than us collection of Swedes, and it looked promising against Qatar for that 45 mins. Looks like going forward it will be the back 4 that everyone seems to want, and he has Wood, Singh & hopefully Thomas to add to the group.

To me Pragnell has made 2 fudgeups. Not trying hard enough to work out his & NZF's problem with pricky Hay. Did Pragnell even research NZF's chances of seriously getting Herdman or Buckingham before asking Hay to re-apply. He's also placed too much onus on the McKinnon Report, written by someone with little understanding of the AWs & international football environment. It ain't the All Blacks, Silver Ferns all whoever with all your players & staff in NZ.

And then AP made that really stupid comment about "their no 1 choice basically being all but signed as coach, just waiting for them to deal with a family health matter". That was sure naviety. You keep your trap shut until a formal contract is signed & you are shaking hands in Albany in front of the cameras.

So all & all an uninspiring but low risk decision - that puts alot of power in the player group this WC cycle. Who knows how it will go.

What shouldn't be forgotten was Des was very much in play. Got an extension offer from Mumbai, wanted to know what NZF could offer in response before he signed. We know how much he loves NZ. But NZF said fudge off, we have Herdman (when they didn't).

"And then AP made that really stupid comment about "their no 1 choice basically being all but signed as coach, just waiting for them to deal with a family health matter". That was sure naviety. You keep your trap shut until a formal contract is signed & you are shaking hands in Albany in front of the cameras."

naievity or blatent lie?!? If said #1 candidate was Herdman (and we are only assuming it was) then from what I can tell AP is a fudgetard lying moron as Herdman was never coming to NZ and said as much very early on. If it was anyone else then AP is still a muppet lying his way through the process.