All Whites, Ferns, and other international teams

World Cup Squad Discussion

983 replies · 21,546 views

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

You're assuming that one isn't true.

Back on keepers, here is a two minute brain dump:
Popular Opinion would say these would be as good or almost certainly better:
Bouzanis
Federici
Bosnich
Schwartzer
Covic
Petkovic
Petkovic
Vukovich
Theoklitos
Galekovic
Velaphi
Bolton
Jones
Kalac
Reddy

Possible (I don't rate him)
Van Stratten

Now, assuming there are a couple more young Aussies in Europe, twenty wouldn't be hard to get to.

Its a game of opinions and having seen most of these keepers I rate Moss better than most of them. Better than Moss? Langerak SchwarzerTheoklitos...maybe Jones. Neither of the Petkovic brothers and you have Bosnich on your list !!!! Velaphi & Reddy are hot & cold great one week awful the next - though I agree Reddy has been great for Phoenix - he was mince with Roar.
Don't think Kalac is still playing is he???

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Bosnich is retired isn't he? So not better than currently playing keepers. Velaphi, Reddy and Theo have been up and down in their form.

I think you're being a bit unusually harsh...

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

News's point it still valid though - even if you dispute some of his list - Paston and Moss wouldn't stand out against a dozen or so Australians, so we can hardly claim to be blessed with talent in that area and the perception that it's a position we are strong in is a bit false.

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

they have lots of decent goalies!

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

NZF RSA members getting uppity ... Blog time! http://tinyurl.com/23wq6w3

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Hard News wrote:

You're assuming that one isn't true.Back on keepers, here is a two minute brain dump:Popular Opinion would say these would be as good or almost certainly better:BouzanisFedericiBosnichSchwartzerCovicPetkovicPetkovicVukovichTheoklitosGalekovicVelaphiBoltonJonesKalacReddyPossible (I don't rate him)Van StrattenNow, assuming there are a couple more young Aussies in Europe, twenty wouldn't be hard to get to.

Agreed with pretty much all of them except Bouzanis who is the most overhyped player ever. He can't even start for Accrington Stanley.

a.haak

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Who are our best XI available players at the moment? Forgeting positions for one moment. My pick is below:

Best XI Players: Mark Paston Winston Reid Ryan Nelsen Tommy Smith Simon Elliott Leo Bertos Michael McGlinchley Chris Wood Shane Smeltz Chris Killen Rory Fallon

Give em' a shirt, chuck em' on the field and...Bob's your uncle..job done.

LondonChris2010-05-17 23:19:45

If we build it, they will come...

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Mark Paston

Reid Nelsen Smith

Elliot

Bertos McGlinchey

Wood

Smeltz Killen

Fallon

Good luck.

You know we belong together...

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

= longball...

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Oska wrote:

Mark Paston

Reid Nelsen Smith

Bertos Elliot Wood

McGlinchey

Smeltz

Killen Fallon

Good luck.

I re-worked it for you Oska...

and I like the long ball tactics Smittzy

LondonChris2010-05-17 23:53:43

If we build it, they will come...

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

If you think we're going to play a beautiful flowing short passing game,you're going to be severely disappointed smittzy

Allegedly

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I think the most unfortunate thing about Rufer's comments is that it is very unlikely that any of these kids would have suspected that they would have a chance of making the world cup squad, yet they are now the subject of controversy and will always be considered "Wyntons kids" in the eyes of the media and the fans. If a player thinks he is hard done by and wants to make a point of it then he should contact the media and make a statment - I wonder whether Wynton spoke to any of these guys before going out on a limb in the media.

Essentially they are beuing used in a power play between Wynton and his winners programme and Ricki and NZF and I think it's pretty sh*t. We end up lloking at them and mocking them when we should be happy that there are good players out there and encouraging them, but it is the natural reaction when someone gets on their high horse.

Is Wynton really a good coach? I always got the impression that his best attribute was his contacts book

On the keepers point it is starange that we haven't produced better goalies. Similar countries with similar all round sporting traditions where kids play a lot of sports including ones involving catching, like USA, England, Aussie have generally always produced good keepers.

Normo's coming home

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

[QUOTE=james dean]I think the most unfortunate thing about Rufer's comments is that it is very unlikely that any of these kids would have suspected that they would have a chance of making the world cup squad, yet they are now the subject of controversy and will always be considered "Wyntons kids" in the eyes of the media and the fans. If a player thinks he is hard done by and wants to make a point of it then he should contact the media and make a statment - I wonder whether Wynton spoke to any of these guys before going out on a limb in the media.

Good statement!

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

james dean wrote:

Is Wynton really a good coach? I always got the impression that his best attribute was his contacts book

I think in order to be a decent coach you need to be a good communicator. Wynton Rufer could never be called a good communicator.

Nix, Leyton Orient and Alloa Athletic supporting schmuck.

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

james dean wrote:

Good point on the US and Aussie, but I think it's a fallacy that England have always produced a lot of good 'keepers. It seems to be based around the Shilton/Clemence/Corrigan era when, in reality, that is the only time in their football history that they had a lot of good keepers to pick from.

I bet they envy Spain at the moment. When someone like Victor Valdes is unlikely to make even the squad you know there is some depth there.

Nix, Leyton Orient and Alloa Athletic supporting schmuck.

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

james dean wrote:

I think the most unfortunate thing about Rufer's comments is that it is very unlikely that any of these kids would have suspected that they would have a chance of making the world cup squad, yet they are now the subject of controversy and will always be considered "Wyntons kids" in the eyes of the media and the fans.ï¿½ If a player thinks he is hard done by and wants to make a point of it then he should contact the media and make a statment - I wonder whether Wynton spoke to any of these guys before going out on a limb in the media.

ï¿½

Essentially they are beuing used in a power play between Wynton and his winners programme and Ricki and NZF and I think it's pretty sh*t.ï¿½ We end up lloking at them and mocking them when we should be happy that there are good players out there and encouraging them, but it is the natural reaction when someone gets on their high horse.

ï¿½

Is Wynton really a good coach?ï¿½ I always got the impression that his best attribute was his contacts book

ï¿½

On the keepers point it is starange that we haven't produced better goalies.ï¿½ Similar countries with similar all round sporting traditions where kids play a lot of sports including ones involving catching, like USA, England, Aussie have generally always produced good keepers.

ï¿½

Well said indeed - it is all about Wynton

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

LondonChris wrote:

Oska wrote:

Mark Paston

Reid Nelsen Smith

Bertos Elliot Wood

McGlinchey

Smeltz

Killen Fallon

Good luck.

I re-worked it for you Oska...

and I like the long ball tactics Smittzy

Or McGlinchey out on the left, and Wood and Smeltz given a free role between midfield and strikers?

It still would unfortunately mean that McG or Wood end up playing left back. Very weak there.

Still I wouldn't mind watching this team if they could get the ball through to the front 3rd....
martinb2010-05-18 14:28:57

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

"Good point on the US and Aussie, but I think it's a fallacy that England have always produced a lot of good 'keepers. It seems to be based around the Shilton/Clemence/Corrigan era when, in reality, that is the only time in their football history that they had a lot of good keepers to pick from"

You gotta be kidding me?Obviously you know NOTHING about England's goalkeeping history:Ever heard of Banks,Williams,Swift,Ditchburn,Woodley ,Hibbs?That's not including some classy keepers who were only capped a few times due to the competition,goalies like Sagar,Parkes,Rimmer,Bonetti,Stepney,MacDonald....Christ I could be here for hours...
Perhaps you should research before showing your ignorance(however if you're a pimply schoolboy I'll cut you some slack...)

"Always remember lads,one Evertonian is worth 20 Liverpudlians"...Brian Labone

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I like Toffeeman1970, his St. George tinted glasses make me lol.

How's my driving? - Whine here

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

knowledge is power...

"Always remember lads,one Evertonian is worth 20 Liverpudlians"...Brian Labone

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

How can any of us down under say that the UK and Euro players that we have never seen never mind heard of are going to be better than what we have.I am not saying they are not but who knows.

If you are old and wise you were probably young and stupid

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I never saw Puskas play,but I'm willing to believe he was as good as we've been told...
Oh,and I'm old enough to have seen many on my list play,so I have no qualms about defending their abilities.So using your criteria Leggy, Eusebio,Cruyff,Pele etc,can't be better than players around now,because you haven't seen them "live"?
I don't mind informed observations,but The Jam's statement was ridiculous.

"Always remember lads,one Evertonian is worth 20 Liverpudlians"...Brian Labone

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

toffeeman1970 wrote:

To settle this argument, I strongly recommend the two excellent British documentary series currently screening on ESPN, "The Greatest of All Time" which is 50 half hour episodes on the world's greatest players (on most nights) and "World Football Rivalries" one hour episodes about the history of the major global rivalries such as England- Germany, Holland- Germany, Brazil- Argentina etc. (Saturday nights, repeated Tuesday night).

I'd never seen footage of Puskas or Di Stefano- but boy was they good!

These documentaries must be amongst the best ever made in English on great footballers.

It's the contemporary equivalents of these greats we'll be up against at the World Cup-

but well-organized teams of lesser ability that play with passion can get results (look at how well Fulham did in the Europa League or Portsmouth in the FA Cup this year).

Fulham to me seemed a similar side in playing ability and style to the All Whites from what I saw in the Europa Cup Final. Athletico Madrid were skillful Latins such as NZ will face next month, and though some Fulham players made basic errors at times, they had enough ability and passion to be very competitive.

Same with Portsmouth who had many tall, physical players as do the All Whites, and played with such passion they really rattled Chelsea on the weekend.

As Billy Harris commented in the Sunday Star-Times on the weekend (a rare ocassion I've agreed with him) the All Whites will be better to ditch pretty football, rely on our physical strength etc. and play long balls into the box where necessary, as Ireland did so successfully in 1990 and 1994 against more skilfull opponents...

Big Pete 65, Christchurch

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

toffeeman1970 wrote:

No, it wasn't ridiculous, your response was. The list of names you supplied contained quite a few players that hardly played for England because they weren't good enough. Jimmy Rimmer for instance won a single sympathy cap for 45 minutes in a meaningless tournament in the US, Phil Parkes (I assume you mean the QPR/Hammers one, not the Wolves keeper of the same era) also won a solitary cap and was a solid top flight keeper but not of international quality, as evidence by his lack of further apperances after, from memory, one cap circa 1974 vs Portugal. Ditto Stepney. And Peter Bonetti? Again, good club player but when it mattered most showed his inability. Gordon Banks however was the best in the world after Yashin retired until his injury.

Some of the other names you mentioned are beyond my memory (and years) but the likes of Ted Ditchburn and Frank Swift (not to mention the likes of Sam Bartram and Gil Merrick who you didn't mention) I've read about and respect the opinions of others on their ability and so I agree with you on. But England haven't produced a world class keeper since Shilton retired.

I know my football, and obviously you do too, and to disagree with me is fine, but you could do so with a little bit more of a civilsed tongue. I don't like being called ignorant especially on a subject I know I'm not.

Nix, Leyton Orient and Alloa Athletic supporting schmuck.

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I agree with you Big Pete.....for one of the first times ever I have agreed with a Bill Harris column. His comments about Irelands success at the WC being a shining example for NZ to follow. We are like them, limited in pure technical quality. But if you adopt the right strategy you can upset the playing styles of other countries.

This does not mean you "park the bus". It does mean you get everyone behind the ball on defense, you keep your shape, rough them up a bit if need be. You need to play a high pressure game and keep the opposition on the back foot.

I have no problem if we do a little bit of the long ball stuff. Look at our players. We have quite a few really good defenders. We have a few big tall not particularly mobile strikers. Our creative midfield is weak. Obvious answer would be wack it up to the big guys up front and see what develops.

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

toffeeman1970 wrote:

I have not seen them live, but I have seen enough on TV to know that they were great players.
The point was that the players from UK/Europe are strange to us because we don't see them on a regular basis.

If you are old and wise you were probably young and stupid

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Big Pete 65 wrote:

It's the contemporary equivalents of these greats we'll be up against at the World Cup-

but well-organized teams of lesser ability that play with passion can get results (look at how well Fulham did in the Europa League or Portsmouth in the FA Cup this year).

Same with Portsmouth who had many tall, physical players as do the All Whites, and played with such passion they really rattled Chelsea on the weekend.

I was in Hamburg and I don't know what game you were watching! That's not at all how Flham play. Fulham are very well organised but they play a very rigid possession based game in a very strict 4-4-2 with inside out wingers who are all able to keep the ball. This may be a small point and I generally agree with your comments about how the All Whites should play but besmirching Fulham with that talk is wrong - we'd be extremely happy if the All Whites could play like Fulham.

Putting it all down to "playing with passion" ignores the way the Hodgson has gone about coaching that side to get the very best out of that group of players.

This is a good account of their methods: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/apr/27/the-question-fulham-roy-hodgson

And it's really the same thing with Pompey, they're a footballing team. WHile they may have competed well with CHelsea (who themselves are a huge and very strong side) ultimately they really created very few chances other than when they were able to counter-attack qucikly a couple of times upon turnovers of possession. That's something we really struggle to achieve and again really nothing like the way that we play which is fairly low on skill and quite a long way from modern football.

Normo's coming home

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Anyone know anything about Squad numbers? wanted to buy a fallon shirt on kitbag but wasnt sure what number. . .

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

GermanNix wrote:

Anyone know anything about Squad numbers? wanted to buy a fallon shirt on kitbag but wasnt sure what number. . .

Hes number 14. im pretty sure.

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

http://www.yellowfever.co.nz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13009

How's my driving? - Whine here

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

james dean wrote:

Putting it all down to "playing with passion" ignores the way the Hodgson has gone about coaching that side to get the very best out of that group of players.

This is a good account of their methods: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/apr/27/the-question-fulham-roy-hodgson

Good points and a really good article from the Guardian. Admit Fulham are a different team from the All Whites: have more creative skill. Enjoyed wingers Davies and Duff- had very good games. McGlinchey and Bertos would be our nearest equivalents but are not "inside out wingers" able to come inside much as Fulham's do.

For me, Murphy was a disappointment in central midfield and passed the ball directly to the opposition too much (in that sense more like one of our players!) though he improved in second half.

Davies' comments on Hodgson's methods interesting: AWs can learn from that system. Nothing very complex in training- emphasis on team shape above all else, a rigid system, many repetitive drills. Hodgson drills in everything repetitively on the pitch with no diagrams, all exercises are related to how they will actually play.

Davies: "If you're going to play for him you've got to put a shift in and perform, work to a system and be tight defensively."

Can be summed up as based on "pressing, zonal marking and counter-attacking"

Sounds like what the AWs will need in South Africa...

Simon Elliott will be familiar with Hodgson's methods from his last season at Fulham.

One thing this article points out though is that the price you pay for such a system is lack of goals (out of a run of 12 games where Fulham kept a clean sheet, 7 finished 0-0 and only once did they score 2 goals or more.)

Big Pete 652010-05-21 04:05:36

Big Pete 65, Christchurch

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Given the way they played last night, this is the team that I would like to see come out against Slovakia on June 15.

GK: Paston
RWB: Bertos
RCB: Reid
CB: Nelsen
LCB: Vicelich
LWB: Smith
CM: Elliot
CM: Brown
CF: Smeltz
RS: Fallon
LS: Killen

possibly change Smeltz with McGlinchey in an AM role.
Brown and Elliot worked bloody well together in that 1st half, and dominated Cahill and Grella in my books.
Fallon was very handy with his height and ball control up front. A good man to work off.
Killen showed some real class at times

Vicelich and Nelsen linked up well together and looked solid. But Sigmund simply doesnt have the pace to be on the park with the likes of Italy and Paraguay.

Tommy Smith put in a good performance and I reckon he'll edge Lochhead for that LWB role, considering he's the only one in that position capable of putting in a decent cross.

Reid took a while to adjust, which is understandable, but after 10 mins or so, he seemed solid. He has the pace to compete at WC level and that should win him a spot.

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

According to some people Sigmund played really well and according to others he was awfull. I haven't seen the game but can somebody give me more details on that?

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Siggy was just Siggy. Gets outdone by any sort of pace but toiled hard, make a few good headers etc. Didn't really do anything too wrong but obviously next to Nelsen he was a step below.valeo2010-05-25 11:10:36

a.haak

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

valeo wrote:

Siggy was just Siggy. Gets outdone by any sort of pace but toiled hard, make a few good headers etc. Didn't really do anything too wrong but obviously next to Nelsen he was a step below.

This.Every single word.

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Brown coming home fractured shoulder....

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/world-cup/all-whites/3735339/Tim-Browns-World-Cup-campaign-in-serious-doubt

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I'd be tempted to drop Smeltz, he didn;t get into the game last night and didn't really look interested, maybe it's just that he's rusty, but we need to play to our strengths, which is lumping it up front, or crossing from wide, and imagine aiming for the Fallon, Killen and Wood, all big men...

"You can never get a bloody tradesman at Easter, it's a wonder Jesus got crucified" - Karl Pilkington

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

conorphelan wrote:

Like the look of that, but just something about it doesn't seem right.

-----------------Paston-----------------
---------Reid--Nelsen--Vicelich---------
-Bertos--------------------------Smith--
-----------Elliot-------Brown-------------
----------------Smeltz--------------------
--------------Fallon--Killen---------------

I'm not sure who I'd rather Sigmund or Vicelich.
I like being able to bring either Smith or Lochhead on, Smith looked great going forward and I think by the time the Slovakia game comes around he'll be there.
There's just something about this formation that I just don't like. It's probably Bertos at RWB, because we know he'll most likely be up the line a bit more.
Smeltz or McGlinchey. But Smeltz goal scoring record may just edge him ahead.

These are the only subs I could imagine even being worth bringing on.

Wood
McGlinchey
Brockie
Lochhead
Clapham
Barron

These guys just wouldn't offer a thing.
Christie
Mulligan
Boyens
Sigmund/Vicelich

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

i think the role that Elliot played last night was a role that Mulligan was playing in the practice games- i think he is our best passing central midfielder after Elliot. And someone has to be able to find the big units up front. Not thinking it would be Clapham or Barron. I would hace thought Barron more in the Brown run-all-day mode?

Clapham and McG are better running and playing through balls and one touch perhaps?

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