ASBP 2014/2015

So ACFC are a parasite club - what complete and utter nonsense. Their regular O League wins spread something like $280,000 a season amongst the other franchises - not to mention providing the best run and most talented squad in the competition. Forgive me but some of you are so consumed with anti-ACFC resentment you're divorced from reality. Or perhaps just very stupid.

As for another franchise coming into the ASBP - I've heard it's most likely to be South Auckland United playing at Mangere. However knowing how NZF dicked around a worthy franchise big a few seasons back by a North Shore consortium I wouldn't hold my breath that they'll do anything to actually strengthen the ASBP. NZF's indifference to our national league is boundless. Both a Nix reserve team and the Wanderers should not be in it. Send the full Under 20 side on tours like the coming one to China if they want to prepare them. Their participation in the 2013/14 ASBP was a joke.

The Phoenix reserves should stick to playing friendlies against ASBP sides if they want game time. Or better still, get into the Australian reserve competition where they belong, being they're an Australian registered club. And get eligibility to play in the Asian Champions League to boot! It's FFA who have dumped on the Phoenix by excluding them from reserve and ACL competitions, why should the ASBP have to pick up the pieces? Wellnix don't invest in the ASBP, It's ACFC who carry the burden by winning the O League pot of gold which keeps the ASBP going.

As for another franchise coming into the ASBP - I've heard it's most likely to be South Auckland United playing at Mangere. However knowing how NZF dicked around a worthy franchise big a few seasons back by a North Shore consortium I wouldn't hold my breath that they'll do anything to actually strengthen the ASBP. NZF's indifference to our national league is boundless. Both a Nix reserve team and the Wanderers should not be in it. Send the full Under 20 side on tours like the coming one to China if they want to prepare them. Their participation in the 2013/14 ASBP was a joke.

The Phoenix reserves should stick to playing friendlies against ASBP sides if they want game time. Or better still, get into the Australian reserve competition where they belong, being they're an Australian registered club. And get eligibility to play in the Asian Champions League to boot! It's FFA who have dumped on the Phoenix by excluding them from reserve and ACL competitions, why should the ASBP have to pick up the pieces? Wellnix don't invest in the ASBP, It's ACFC who carry the burden by winning the O League pot of gold which keeps the ASBP going.

I used to follow whatever the ASBP was called back when I lived in Palmy and YoungHeart Manawatu were a force to be reckoned with but my interest waned. Now my level of interest is basically reading a newspaper article about it if I see one and occasionally reading threads on here. I have to admit I find the Phoenix/Auckland City rivalry funny, mostly because it seems to be perpetuated by about 10 people but is still the only genuine rivalry the Nix have (and because the two teams can never play each other in a meaningful match as the Nix license agreement currently stands). Also, the irony of a club kept in business almost entirely by money derived from pokie machines calling another club 'parasites' never fails to amuse me. I enjoy the pisstaking and banter between the two groups of fans, but I do wonder about how much some of the ACFC fans actually believe their own hype.

But ask yourself this: the average crowd at the Phoenix this year was 8,200. If the Nix didn't exist would that level of attendance be spread out over 8 teams in the ASBP - over 1,000 each club? Would Sky or another TV channel be willing to broadcast ASBP games? Would there be regular stories on the 6 o'clock news about the ASBP? Would there be enough money in New Zealand Football for the competition to be professional? I seriously doubt any of these could happen. How then exactly is the Phoenix bad for New Zealand football? (because that seems to be the 'parasite' argument).

Couldn't you just as easily make the argument that as an *ahem* amateur *cough*  franchise-based league the ASBP doesn't have a mechanism like promotion/relegation or a salary cap to even the playing field, and that ACFC have over time emerged as the strongest team and that's bad for the competition because their ongoing dominance makes the competition boring for fans of other clubs and casual observers? I don't know how you'd rectify this, short of centralising funding and distributing the same amount to each franchise, but obviously that would never work with the current model either.

As I see it the purpose of the ASBP is to benefit kiwi football as much as possible. Because of the sporting culture in NZ and the small size of the market here it will never be viable as a stand alone professional competition, so it will never really benefit NZ football by increasing public interest. The other way it can benefit NZ football is by helping develop kiwi talent, and as such I don't have a problem with Wanderers and Phoenix reserves playing in it. Ideally I'd like to see 3 kiwi clubs in the A League (Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch) and NZ to join the AFC (doubt it'll happen but just daydreaming). Without that, I think the best thing for NZ football as a whole is something like the current situation. I know this upsets the ACFC fans (and maybe others) because Nix reserves and Wanderers are seen as devaluing the competition, but it depends on what you think the value of the ASBP is. 

The Phoenix also exist to benefit NZ Football, they just do it a different way - mostly by keeping interest in NZ football higher in NZ than it otherwise would be. I really don't buy the argument that this comes at the expense of interest in the ASBP (with the possible exception of Wellington, although I think there's more factors at play there too).

I understand people wanting the ASBP to mean more but outside of a handful of diehard fans no one really cares, and I can't see that changing anytime soon, Phoenix or no Phoenix. I applaud the ACFC fans for being passionate about their team but I think that blaming the woes of the ASBP on the Phoenix is ignoring some much bigger issues with the competition. Love the rivalry though! And I'll always cheer for whoever the OFC representative is in the Club World Cup (which will probably be ACFC again).

Obviously your memory and recollections are somewhat flawed....when the ASB started out it did have just about everything you say ...fortunately NZF quickly lost interest and found [ along with Sky ] a new , prettier bauble to play with .....allied to the fact that all it required from NZF was a little cash and a small amount of toadying ...some smart-money  boys would supply the cash and the Australians would do all the heavy lifting , and consequently call the tune ...

"As I see it the purpose of the ASBP is to benefit kiwi football as much as possible."

Genius !!!!  , you are already my guiding light , an intellect of huge burning intensity ....I hang on every pearl of wisdom ....

"The Phoenix also exist to benefit NZ Football, they just do it a different way - mostly by keeping interest in NZ football higher in NZ than it otherwise would be. I really don't buy the argument that this comes at the expense of interest in the ASBP (with the possible exception of Wellington, although I think there's more factors at play there too)."

Deluded...ask your own people how the Pnix have boosted TW ...youll get a very short answer...

"And I'll always cheer for whoever the OFC representative is in the Club World Cup "

Give my love to Amicale ,Ba ,Kiwi ....whoever  .....  If I were you Id try too make up my mind , whether you desperately want to be an Aussie or some sort of Pan -Pacificist ....you do realise that these teams are all from different countries ?

Yawn

Um, New Zealand's had a professional football club in the Aussie league longer than the ASBP has existed - the Knightz played there first season in 1999, and the ASBP only started in 2004. So how can the decline in interest in the ASBP be because of the existence of a professional club playing in Australia, when the professional club in Aussie (in one form or another) has been around longer than the franchise-based model of the ASBP?

As for the lack of interest in TW in Wellington, I'm sure part of that is the Phoenix, but that's not the whole story. Shifting to inaccessible Miramar hasn't helped and the club really makes very little effort to engage with the local community as far as I can see. Yeah having the Phoenix to compete with doesn't help, but I don't think that you can argue that the Phoenix shouldn't exist so a few hundred more people go to TW games.

And yeah, I am a pan-Pacificist when it comes to FIFA competitions. I'll cheer for whoever qualifies from this region. I'd rather it was a kiwi team of course.

Take your logic elsewhere CT.

At what stage or how many years do you have to live in The Wgtn region to be considered from Wgtn.

Miramar - One of Wgtn's most visited suburbs.   

I take it Mirimar is where the jail is ?

I see in Stuff that NZF chief executive Andy Martin is working on a way a professional Phoenix reserve team can play in a so-called "amateur" ASBP national league. The same article quotes Welnix CEO Dome saying that if the Nix can't get a reserve team into the ASBP then the Phoenix aren't viable and they'll walk away from the whole thing. I don't know how much of an empty threat that is but a lot of pressure is now being applied to NZF to get a Nix reserve team into the ASBP.

I still think our national league and the A League should be kept apart and not linked, other than the best local players moving into professionalism through the A League. However there is also a logic to tying them together. What pleased me most about the article I'm quoting is Andy martin says he wants to rekindle interest in the national league and attract TV. That's the first time in a decade we've any real expression of interest and intent from NZF. If it's only to ensure the survival of the Phoenix then I'll still take it.

If putting a Nix reserve team in the ASBP means NZF then take a real interest in attracting sponsors and TV to the competition then I'll go along with it. But that has to be the deal.  

Will it need approval from FiFa, FFA, AFC and OFC. Or is just up to NZF to send a FAX  

The Nix reserves definetly should be in the ASB Premiership, it would certainly raise the profile of the competition and give fringe players for the Nix regular competitive fixtures so I can't see why this is a bad thing!!

The Australian Institute of Sport play in the National Youth League (instead of the Nix).

Newcastle Jets, Brisbane Roar and Perth Glory all entered their youth teams in their respective National Premier League competitions this year (not sure whether that means they will also play in the next NYL or not).

The Malaysian U20 side even plays in the Queensland NPL.

The point being that the Aussies seem to have absolutely no problem with slotting youth sides into other leagues where they can see a benefit, and also not getting too tied up with the pro vs amateur question.

If they can make it work surely we can? Especially when we need to make it work so much more than they do.

Yep ...is like virginity ....all or nothing ....

As has already been mentioned... would it be anymore in doubt than it already is?

There is no centralised pokie funding of the ASBP now, so what's the problem?

As long as no pokie funding is claimed for Nix reserves, individual franchises can just carry on doing what they're doing can't they?

And for the millionth time, if pokie funding is already being used, directly or indirectly, to pay players above a level that could reasonably be called 'expenses' then that's a hornets nest that has nothing to do with whether the Nix reserves come into the league or not.

I wonder if anyone has bothered explaining the funding of the ASBP to Andy Martin yet?

Oh yes, it appears they have.

As an ex exec of Barclays UK he'll be pretty familiar with rorts and incentives I imagine.

What I'm saying is if NZF finally pull their finger out over the ASBP and it requires a Nix reserve team to do it then I'll go along (albeit reluctantly). It's called being realistic, not being bought off. Isn't everything in life a trade off of some fashion? No-one can have everything and my priority is the survival of the ASBP.

Football Kingz where a New Zealand team playing in the Australian semi-pro NSL, The NSL was a OFC league  - Yet the Kingz were not aloud to put a reserve team in the local NZ national club competition?. Why? If i recall it was due to the same dumb bullsh17 story's from the same people. 

In the end having the Phoenix there will be good for all sorts of reasons, media, competitiveness, interest factor.  Can only be a good thing.

What I don't get is the Phoenix saying that this is a must for the club to become successful.  I just don't buy that:

Is it meaningful games that Phoenix young players are lacking, or specialist youth coaching?

Why are reserves at English premiership clubs able to keep their squad fit and ready to play without a reserve league but the Phoenix need their players to play in one?

Question: why do the Phoenix even need to develop young players?  We have 8 franchises and numerous private academies plus national teams and fed talent development all focussed on producing young players for pro football.  And only one professional team - can't the Phoenix just cherry pick the best talent developed elsewhere, why do they actually have to develop their own young players?

Are the Phoenix going to be better at developing players than any other ASBP franchise?  No evidence so far

Were the Phoenix hamstrung this year by reserve players not having played NZFC games, or their reserve players just being shit?

surely you can answer some of those questions yourself

Is it meaningful games that Phoenix young players are lacking, or specialist youth coaching?

I would think it is both. A problem with having young players who get very little, if any, time in  A-League games is that they don't get consistent game time at anything higher than the winter league they end up in during the off-season. Unless they end up in Victoria or NSW they are taking a bigger step down than being able to move between ASBP and A-League as needed. As for the coaching, we have never really developed a player have we? Kosta didn't get to play, and Marco was already good and probably improved more in Melbourne than he did here.

Why are reserves at English premiership clubs able to keep their squad fit and ready to play without a reserve league but the Phoenix need their players to play in one?

Given the reduced squad sizes now, and the number of games English teams play, fringe players can still get a game. Besides, while the reserve league is gone, the U21 leagues allows three overage outfield players and one overage goalkeeper on each teamsheet. They do still get chances to play actual games.

Question: why do the Phoenix even need to develop young players?  We have 8 franchises and numerous private academies plus national teams and fed talent development all focussed on producing young players for pro football.  And only one professional team - can't the Phoenix just cherry pick the best talent developed elsewhere, why do they actually have to develop their own young players?

They could, but I see a few benefits to the Nix developing players. For starters, they can pay players a proper professional wage, so they can commit themselves fully to their football (I know plenty of ASBP players can earn decent wages through various means, but how many are earning as much as the base A-League contract, especially the young ones?), while I assume the Nix train more than the "amateur" teams. There is also something to be gained for the club in having the coaching staff really know a player and be able to develop and train him with the team's system in mind. It definitely makes more sense than having to chuck an injury replacement player on the field when he has only been with the team for a week and the coach may have never worked with him before. Also, the fitness of a player who has had a full preseason with a professional team and has kept that fitness up through competitive matches at a lower level is going to be better able to come into the first team and avoid injury (see Riera). Finally, young players are going to learn more from a Paul Ifill than from an Aaron Clapham.

Are the Phoenix going to be better at developing players than any other ASBP franchise?  No evidence so far

I agree with you here, but the club is trying to move in the right direction with this stuff IMO. For six years it was Ricki being very cautious with young players, and the obvious difference between the Nix and the A-League clubs that have brought young players through is that the Nix don't have a youth team.

Were the Phoenix hamstrung this year by reserve players not having played NZFC games, or their reserve players just being shit?

Probably both, but can we expect the shit players to get any better from training alone?