The WaiBOP United Thread

i have to disagree bruce, i thought we all toilled against the odds to develop quality footballers and to try and garner a bit of respect for the region in our own ways.  as i've said i find declans coaching knowledge to be class and being exposed to this 20 hours a week cant be harming the young lads at all and fair play players like younger heerschap and thomas crawford have player NRFL and a few of the other bay lads did really well last year in the youth team last year, so i would concede that properly managed yep the whole federation should conrtibute the the regions national team.

i do not doubt that every single coach waikato has or ever will apoint will use the role as a line on their cv to move on to bigger and better things but my poorly made point is that by subcribing to Declans criteria that he only wants players who can train as much as his academy you are alienating a decent portion of current, future and potential players from the team and as has been said also current players that get to the age where life gets in the way.

so when declan and the best of his crop move on to bigger and better things (as we all do from time to time), what then for the franchise? you will be left with a group of players who have been alienated by the current set up and should you be successful with changing cameron's mind you will end up alienating a large part of the football comunity as they will have donated approx $50k a year and Waikato FC will be in the same position as they where 2 years ago.

Hence i dont see how it benefits Waikato/Bay of Plenty Football longterm
never_surprised2012-01-17 14:40:25

Almost half the players in the Waikato squad are not in his academy. equally, a lot of players in his academy are not in the Waikato squad.

Kiwi, declan has chosen to work with a group of players and "bring them through" as many have done before him. It is based on his own theories of development and coaching.

Bruce I don't think anyone is actually arguing for mediocrity and probably quite the opposite. If no one wanted Waikato to succeed, there would not be a relative robust football discussion taking place (and to be fair it is a good discussion around football). I respect your opinion and the fact you put your name to it. I think the key question if I could sum up the mood of the posters would be this.

'The accusation against Declan is that he is only in it for his sons. Declan is on record as saying thats not the case. When its all said and done, and his sons have been through his system and moved on, is he still going to be there for Waikato FC or is this just a vehicle in the here and now?'

In my opinion, and I respect I do not know him as well as you or others do, I honestly do not believe he will be. I respect he did it 7-8 years ago, but I think back then, being a new league, everyone wanted to be involved. Now its in its 8th year and it is largely predictable with its finish and also run in a shambolic state by Glyn Taylor (who should never be allowed to run a lottery wheel at a gala in my opinion but thats a different issue), a number of players choose to skip the summer league for other reasons, the finances is not really there and we are in the situation that Waikato are in. I honestly want to see them succeed and see them produce a brand of football akin to what Auckland are doing now (I will not use a Brisbane or a Barcelona comparison) and it would be a credit to Declan if he does. I just keep coming back to the long term benefit to Waikato and I don't see it. I think once Declans sons are done, he is too.
Jeff Vader2012-01-17 20:29:16

You also mention that when people put money in, they can call the tune. Fair enough that no one is and Declan has the right to pick who he wants. If someone ponies up cash, is he going to allow others to have a say in how his team is run?

Ok summing up Edge is not Vader ad UK Kiwi's cup of tea fair enough each to there own.

Couple of good posts there, agree with you skinny

Time will tell on what Edge does, stay or go with his sons. How far away is that I wonder ?? Anyone know/care to have a guess

I applaud that he gets young men to train so hard in their chosen sport. To become very good at something you have to put the time in. Interested to know how it compares timewise to say the training at Blackburn youth or reserves

A test on Sunday as they are playing Auckland at 2.00 pm, might pop along and have a gander

That is a fair point regards training. At a young age, its easy to have other focuses

I had read a book on this 10000 hour thing and they talk about it in terms of Bill Gates, the Beatles and Tiger Woods. The premise being that the time you actualise success is about the time you have done 10000 hours of practice. The Beatles did umpteen hours in clubs in Hamburg before they got big, Gates spent every waking moment outside of college programming and Woods practiced over and over as a child. They also mention that another large part of it is luck and timing. This same book looked at hockey and Canada and said that statistically, kids born in the earlier part of the year have a better chance of being successful. The rationale (and it is fascinating) is that kids are grouped by age so kids born in December are playing against/with kids born in January. At a childs age, 1 year is massive in terms of development and those kids stand out. They then go into rep teams and get better coaching so when they go back next year, they stand out even more and the cycle perpetuates. It also talked about an Asian airline and how the status system can stop success (i.e. a co-pilot never questioned the pilot because of the status culture in country)

I think its good to get this but then these kids need to be in the right place at the right time and for it all to fall into place for them to succeed.

It will be a good test against Auckland. Edge has said (and I don't think its a misquote based on how he is) that Auckland teams wont beat him again. It would be a major upset to happen but even the most optimistic supporter would not pick a Waikato win.

hello there.

Very good post Bruce

Interested if the name of the book JV

Bruce

Hi Kiwi,

Alright then. I apologize for calling Edge a c**t. Fair enough, the post was deleted for being out of line, sorry if you were offended Bruce or anyone else.

But in all fairness, i don't like the guy, nor do i need to like the guy. And no i have not spoken to him directly face to face, but yes i have listened to him indirectly and seen him (in a coaching role) on a number of occasions. I am allowed to form an opinion of the man based on this.

Now if you want me to say something nice about Waikato, then Dave Edmondson is by far the best coach you have ever had and you would have done well to keep him on board in some capacity.

Hi Buffon, I'm not offended as such,  I just think it's inappropriate on so many levels to defame or impugn a third party like that, more-so because you never sought to substantiate your view and explain why you think that way to your audience here.

Do really expect everybody to like him.

In fact, do you also expect everyone to like every other person they come across in life?

Some people like him, good on them. I'm not going to tell them not to. Some people don't like him. That's life. Deal with it.

I think Vadar is talking about Bounce by Mathew Seyd, if not it is very similar. Its a good read and I recommend it,  although it meanders in the 2nd half from memory.

The guts is to be world class you need 10,00 hours purposeful practice (i.e. you need to be pushed not just going through the motions). Part of that challenge in our environment is getting enough exposure at a high enough level for our young players to really push themselves. By being exposed to the NZFC at a young age these guys are getting pushed about as far as you can here.

On the weekend I was impressed with Waikato they moved the ball well without really posing a threat until Otago switched off & then had a brain implosion.

My only worry about Waikato from what I've heard from the outside is the sustainability of this system.
It seems that selection based on age more than ability, with those over 21 basically not considered.
What happens to those who inevitably don't make it,are they written of at 21/22 so the next batch can have a crack?
If this happens there could have big impact on the next tier down with senior players being denied the opportunity to play NZFC.
A few senior players could also help the development of the younger players, in my experience you can learn a lot of those you play with as well as the coach.

Hi Yeovil,

Thanks for pointing that out Bruce.
I was under the impression that the only player over 22 was the keeper.
If everyone interested has had has been looked at the players selected are the best that's fair enough.
Of course who actually is the best is always a matter opinion, but in the end its the selectors opinion that matters the most

UK Kiwi has kind of jumbled up my post with his own thoughts above there. Bruce Holloway2012-01-18 14:04:06

The book is 'Outliers', by Malcolm Gladwell, is great stuff

Mathew Sewd has 3 bounce books I notice, have ordered the likely one to have a look at. Thanks

Just noticed your post N Bomb, thanks, getting that also

Will be reading late in to the night !!  - could be good soporifics  :)


hepatitis2012-01-18 14:18:35

Since we are reminiscing about the past did anyone happen to catch the 2010 Waikato U19s squad play Declans academy side at Melville? Was a preseason game for Waikato,  when Peter Smith was coaching the side. Declan played his usual side (his sons, tyler boyd, ryan thomas etc..) and they lost 3 nil i think it was. And that Waikato squad was a bunch of nobodys who trained twice a week with half the team being from the BOP who everyone rips on. And im pretty sure in the last 10mins Jesse edge started playing long balls to tyler boyd, something Declan takes digs at other teams for doing against him.
 And also Bruce when did Declans side defeat the u17s? i dont remember any such game. I herd they got raped by both the u17s and u20s training squads.
ASUS2012-01-18 15:03:03

UK Kiwi,

Bruce

conflicts of interest, by structure, not by practice, are inevitable in a volunteer sport within a small country with limited coaching talent.

it's in football's best interests to have the best coaches involved. if they have to take 5 different jobs to sustain their involvement then so be it.

those griping at edge need to accept that he was selected by legitimate means to a job that not many wanted.

results would seem to indicate that he is doing a good job, especially considering he took over this team at the last minute.

those questioning his commitment to the sport vs his commitment to his sons need to consider his long standing involvement in the game; his impressive international and professional career and his long-standing senior coaching involvement which kicked off well and truly before his sons could be in a position to 'benefit'reg222012-01-18 22:16:48

The book is indeed 'Outliers', by Malcolm Gladwell

Match highlights from Channel 9's Off the Bar
http://www.ch9.co.nz/content/bar-week-4judda162012-01-20 13:18:44

Otago should have sealed it in the first half.

May go up for a look v Auckland, last time I went on a road trip we got hammered by Waitak while still playing well, so my hopes aren't high. 3 goal loss is probably respectable

Good luck to Waikato, quote from Auckland city coach about Declan and future for nz football, what a  hypocrite, gives once coach credit for doing something he has the opportunity to do, but all he does is gives his spandards and Croations opportunities, good on Declan, we may not all like him but he does the right thing by his nz born youth players who are the future.

�Their coach deserves a lot of credit for playing a different style and giving the young players a chance to develop their game. It is definitely the way of the future for New Zealand football.�

Thats probably not really a fair assessment Otto. Would Declans team win the Premiership, O League and go to Japan? No. That's the motivation of ACFC, not Waikato (if they were honest with themselves about where they currently are at this point in time).

At ACFC, coaches do not last long with a record like Declan has at Waikato so I do not think it is the same.

Fair Comment, results are very important, but that was not my point, my point was to give young nz players opportunites. ACFC do not have to have a whole squad of young players like Declan but 1 or 2 younger players per game and not just sit them on the bench, give them some actual game time eg 20 minutes, they have young players in the squad who are very capable of stepping up but they are not given a chance even when some of the seniors are quite obviously not performing on the odd game.

Yeah thats a fair point too.

I'm not one to defend ACFC but it was pointed out earlier in the year that they have quite a young team in Feneridis, Milne, Hogg, McGeorge, Morgan and Campbell all under 22. Throw in Spoonley at 24 I think and its not as old as you think. I've seen young Steven Carmichael get runs off the bench.

Waikato 0 Auck 0  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, that humble pie just doesn't fill me up. I'll take an extra large slice thanks. Cue Mr Angry in 3...2...1...