National League / OCL

Wishes for the new ASBP season

370 replies · 82,091 views
over 12 years ago
Smithy wrote:

I like the idea of centralised funding, but the acid then comes on NZF to administer it well and that is something it hasn't exactly earned its stripes in over the years.



That's where some 'outside the square' thinking could be required. The ASB Prem franchises could set up their own 'holding company' to apply for, and distribute, funding. NZF would still need to ratify it, but they don't control the trust funding now so I can't see why they'd be bothered about the franchises trying to put a better system in place.

There would be some other hurdles around how you account for where all the money's gone and provide appropriate documentation, but you could even get around that by having the holding company pay for some key expenses on behalf of franchises, instead of just doling out grants.

I dunno, whatever practical difficulties there are surely they can be got around if everybody (franchises, NZF, trusts, DIA) stays focused on the big picture and the desire to put a system in place that is good for everybody.

By the way, the last time I bothered adding it up the 8 franchises were generating around $2.5m - $3m in grants and sponsorship p.a., or approx. $350k each. But ACFC and Waitakere were responsible for around $1.1m of that, approx. $550k each. The other 8 franchises generated around $1.5m, or approx. $250k each. So under a centralised model 6 of the 8 franchises would get an increase of about $100k p.a. and 2 franchises would see their trust funding halved. Or you could split it 9 or 10 ways in order to create an additional fund to support the O-League competitors, which would be another benefit of having a centralised model.

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over 12 years ago
Jerzy Merino wrote:


Re the above, don't think that ACFC don't do anything at levels below and beyond the ASB & FIFA World Club Cup to justify their income.

The inaugural ACFC Under-17 Auckland tourney attracted boys teams from 22 different clubs nationwide, girls teams from 12 different clubs ditto, and took considerable organising not to mention effort from club members manning food stalls, etc. Astonishingly - and beyond NZF's ability apparently, they were also able to get 1 hour Sky coverage for same, which must have been a blast for all the kids, their coaches and parents across the country (see ACFC Under-17 tourney thread on this site). Next year it's hoped the tourney will expand to include players from Oz and the islands.

Also, they are donating kit, balls etc. to youngsters in the islands.

Also, in their 9 years of existence, from the 126 players that have worn the shirt ACFC have contributed 11 full All Whites plus another 18 players who have made national youth teams (see 'The numbers game' at www.aucklandcityfc.com )  

I for one take my hat off to them.

But I'd still like to see Southern Utd playing samba soccer under their new Brazilian coach as the winners of next years ASB.

Finally the post I expected to see, thanks Jerzy.

 

The sad thing is the posts that have followed on from this still bemoan that "Auckland City is getting more than the others".

A dog with a bone :)

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over 12 years ago

Well if you are such the bloody brainiac, why did you not just say that in the first place? It's not like you were not given the chance to clarify your point. You just chose to call everyone else idiots and get defensive.


You really are a miserable person that's impossible to talk with.

Grumpy old bastard alert

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over 12 years ago
Jeff Vader wrote:

Well if you are such the bloody brainiac, why did you not just say that in the first place? It's not like you were not given the chance to clarify your point. You just chose to call everyone else idiots and get defensive.


You really are a miserable person that's impossible to talk with.

Once again you choose to abuse someone and make up bullshit JV

Ive only posted twice #93 and #98. In neither of those did I "call everyone else idiots and get defensive"

 

About time you took your medication (and thats abuse JV in case you dont get it).

 

A dog with a bone :)

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over 12 years ago

If you think I'm just moaning that "ACFC is getting more than the others" then you're really not reading my posts nightz. I'm trying to focus on what's good for the whole league, and yeah, some of the possible improvements would probably threaten ACFC's dominance. Does that mean they shouldn't be discussed?

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over 12 years ago


It certainly doesnt mean that they shouldnt be discussed.

From what Im reading you would prefer that the total amount raised by franchises, would be better for the league, if it was more evenly spread throughout he competing teams.

The problem with that from my point of view is that franchises have a different view on how the money they recieve should be spent and have a different set of ambitions, and hence some have the need for more dollars than others.

I'd prefer to keep the status quo on their ability to fundraise for their own requirements.

The one thing that I dont like is that franchises are paying players to play with trust money. I would like that stamped out of the game and think with the invlovement from NZF with rules around this area it could be eradicated. I'm not saying this will be easy but Im sure it could be done. I would like to think the franchises would than have the ability to hire properly (badged) educated coaches to help develop youth players rather than buying in overseas players to boast their ranks. It would also create a pathway for more coaches which we need in our game.

 

A dog with a bone :)

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over 12 years ago

Woah. That was actually an intelligent response, with an opinion, and it wasnt snarky. 

I think I'm in shock. 

(And yes I realise the irony that this post isn't very intelligent, nor does it contain an opinion about the topic, and it is snarky)


Allegedly

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over 12 years ago
Tegal wrote:

Woah. That was actually an intelligent response, with an opinion, and it wasnt snarky. 

It also wasnt a response to some dribble written by an Idiot trying to slag someone off but rather to someone who was making a reasonable arguement about the topic, which is what we are here for.

A dog with a bone :)

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over 12 years ago

Cut it  out you two. Fucking had enough of the bikering around here.

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over 12 years ago

Interesting series in the Herald on funding sport through gaming cash.  Interesting, so far nothing particularly interesting and generally pretty predictable (sad stories about pokie addicts, implication that all gambling cash comes from addicts, pokies to sports clubs are a wealth transfer from poor to rich, clubs saying without pokie cash they couldn't survive - generally plenty of wailing and gnashing of teeth without).  Hoping later in the week might provide some more nuanced discussion and potential alternative models because this is a very important debate.


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11114737

Normo's coming home

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over 12 years ago · edited over 12 years ago · History
2ndBest wrote:

Cut it  out you two. Fucking had enough of the bikering around here.



Bad language and bringing motorcycling  into disrepute....

MODS >>>Oh MODS !!!
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over 12 years ago
james dean wrote:

Interesting series in the Herald on funding sport through gaming cash.  Interesting, so far nothing particularly interesting and generally pretty predictable (sad stories about pokie addicts, implication that all gambling cash comes from addicts, pokies to sports clubs are a wealth transfer from poor to rich, clubs saying without pokie cash they couldn't survive - generally plenty of wailing and gnashing of teeth without).  Hoping later in the week might provide some more nuanced discussion and potential alternative models because this is a very important debate.


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11114737



cheers JD.  i find the whole pokie funding thing quite immoral, but i remind myself that as a code, we are entitled to grab as much as we can because the government stripped away the (equally immoral) tobacco sponsorship that we depended on so heavily in the past

360footballnews.com

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over 12 years ago
james dean wrote:

Interesting series in the Herald on funding sport through gaming cash.  Interesting, so far nothing particularly interesting and generally pretty predictable (sad stories about pokie addicts, implication that all gambling cash comes from addicts, pokies to sports clubs are a wealth transfer from poor to rich, clubs saying without pokie cash they couldn't survive - generally plenty of wailing and gnashing of teeth without).  Hoping later in the week might provide some more nuanced discussion and potential alternative models because this is a very important debate.


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11114737


Yeah, I'm mostly looking forward to Friday.
It's great that this issue is getting any discussion at all though.

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over 12 years ago
reg22 wrote:
james dean wrote:

Interesting series in the Herald on funding sport through gaming cash.  Interesting, so far nothing particularly interesting and generally pretty predictable (sad stories about pokie addicts, implication that all gambling cash comes from addicts, pokies to sports clubs are a wealth transfer from poor to rich, clubs saying without pokie cash they couldn't survive - generally plenty of wailing and gnashing of teeth without).  Hoping later in the week might provide some more nuanced discussion and potential alternative models because this is a very important debate.


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11114737



cheers JD.  i find the whole pokie funding thing quite immoral, but i remind myself that as a code, we are entitled to grab as much as we can because the government stripped away the (equally immoral) tobacco sponsorship that we depended on so heavily in the past

Three words:
Wonga. Cisse.

"Phoenix till they lose"

Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion. 

Genuine opinion: FTFFA

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over 12 years ago
Junior82 wrote:
reg22 wrote:
james dean wrote:

Interesting series in the Herald on funding sport through gaming cash.  Interesting, so far nothing particularly interesting and generally pretty predictable (sad stories about pokie addicts, implication that all gambling cash comes from addicts, pokies to sports clubs are a wealth transfer from poor to rich, clubs saying without pokie cash they couldn't survive - generally plenty of wailing and gnashing of teeth without).  Hoping later in the week might provide some more nuanced discussion and potential alternative models because this is a very important debate.


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11114737



cheers JD.  i find the whole pokie funding thing quite immoral, but i remind myself that as a code, we are entitled to grab as much as we can because the government stripped away the (equally immoral) tobacco sponsorship that we depended on so heavily in the past


Three words:

Wonga. Cisse.


A lot more words:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2374878/Papiss-Cisse-allegedly-gambles-casino-despite-Newcastle-Wonga-row.html

All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight

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over 12 years ago


"You have to say it does undermine his stance on Wonga." Hilarious.

"At the end of the drive the lawmen arrive...

I'll take my chance because luck is on my side or something...

Her name is Rio, she don't need to understand...

Oh Rio, Rio, hear them shout across the land..."

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over 12 years ago

How about an interview , with whichever jobsworth is in charge of the ASBP this year ?

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over 12 years ago

More hand ringing today. Not actually advancing the debate really

Normo's coming home

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over 12 years ago
FU BLU wrote:

How about an interview , with whichever jobsworth is in charge of the ASBP this year ?



How bout this...?
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over 12 years ago
FU BLU wrote:
FU BLU wrote:

How about an interview , with whichever jobsworth is in charge of the ASBP this year ?



How bout this...?

Yep. Will definitely do. Still over a month until kick off though...
We started a bit of chat about the upcoming season on today's pod (out tonight/tmrw). Major concerns in the pod crew about the lack of organisation surround the U20 team entry. Also not sure why Otago United changed their name? Modestly upbeat about new look TeeDubs.

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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over 12 years ago · edited over 12 years ago · History

Thanks ....Nice precis ...be good to get in early tho , then any fishhooks can be gently removed ......

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over 12 years ago
Bluemagic wrote:
I also admit the Croatian connection is temendously valuable to ACFC.

Are you suggesting that someone from the ACFC "Croatian connection" organised and paid for the Trillian Trust CEO's recent holiday to Croatia?
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over 12 years ago

I look forward to this listen. Who is the new gaffer at NZF. Someone Kemp?

Grumpy old bastard alert

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over 12 years ago

Chris Kemp. Met him once, spoken to him a few times, seems like a good (and capable) fella.

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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over 12 years ago
Smithy wrote:

Chris Kemp. Met him once, spoken to him a few times, seems like a good (and capable) fella.



So ... not long for this job then ....
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over 12 years ago
Press Pass wrote:
Bluemagic wrote:
I also admit the Croatian connection is temendously valuable to ACFC.


Are you suggesting that someone from the ACFC "Croatian connection" organised and paid for the Trillian Trust CEO's recent holiday to Croatia?


Quite an allegation

Normo's coming home

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over 12 years ago
Bluemagic wrote:
Big Pete 65 wrote:
Bluemagic wrote:

Here are my wishes for the upcoming summer national league...............

.............

*  Someone drags a TVNZ producer to a game.



 

TV coverage quite likely on Sommet Sports the new Freeview UHF channel (ch 14)

They have mentioned interest in broadcasting ASB Premiership.

The great thing is they will be streaming their broadcast on their website in a few weeks too (and seem to have ironed out their initial technical problems as during the A-League All Stars game).

Ask Sommet Sports on their Facebook page if they will - they reply promptly to all questions on Facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/SommetSports

They are displaying a commitment to covering Kiwi football right from the go, having broadcast the NZ v Australia Futsal series last week and this week are broadcasting live all games of the two NZ teams in the OFC Futsal Championship.

See Freeview daily TV Schedule online: http://www.freeviewnz.tv/tv-guide.aspx

It's wall-to-wall football tonight with: 

4PM LIVE: OFC Futsal Championship NZ INVITATIONAL V AUSTRALIA;

8PM LIVE: FUTSAL WHITES V SOLOMON ISLANDS

10PM LIVE: MANCHESTER UNITED V YOKOHAMA MARINOS

Good on Sommet Sports, will follow with interest. Hope they do follow up their interest in broadcasting ASBP games.

ASB Premiership

We will be showing 8 Waitakere United games this season (delayed until Monday night) starting with this weeks game.


Big Pete 65, Christchurch

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over 12 years ago

wasn't sure where to post this because wanderers sc united city wanderers city wanderers don't have or deserve their own thread...

but, i just read this on the official asb prem site

"Wanderers SC, coached by former Waitakere United player, Darren Bazeley, are the other team to receive a bye on the opening weekend of action."

'other' team to have a 'bye'?!  it's an 8 team league!?

i assume this is to allow the wanderers extra time to prepare

could NZF possibly be a self-centred biased governing body?  surely not...

they booted youngheart out and replaced them with a team that they wanted in

they give them extra time to prepare

they are also funding them

and still they don't provide any information about where the asb sponsorship goes

hmmm

360footballnews.com

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over 12 years ago

And teams with all whites in have to play on without them I believe on 

  Supporter For Ever - Keep The Faith - Foundation Member - Never Lets FAX Get In The Way Of A Good Yarn

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over 12 years ago

In fairness to NZF, a big chunk of that team just played in the U-17 World Cup. We were considered to have a good chance of making the Round of 16 which was just 1 day ago and given the final isn't til next Friday, having them start next week would be silly.

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over 12 years ago
otagofan wrote:

In fairness to NZF, a big chunk of that team just played in the U-17 World Cup. We were considered to have a good chance of making the Round of 16 which was just 1 day ago and given the final isn't til next Friday, having them start next week would be silly.

So based on that the league should not start until after 20 Nov. In fairness to NZF

  Supporter For Ever - Keep The Faith - Foundation Member - Never Lets FAX Get In The Way Of A Good Yarn

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over 12 years ago
Blew.2 wrote:

And teams with all whites in have to play on without them I believe on 

what team will have 3 AWs to force a postponement?

Grumpy old bastard alert

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over 12 years ago
Jeff Vader wrote:
Blew.2 wrote:

And teams with all whites in have to play on without them I believe on 

what team will have 3 AWs to force a postponement?

How the hell do we know when NZF aren't prepared to publicly announce the squad? Even tho the players and clubs know already! We the supporters come last.

So lets guess. ACFC: Ivan, Tamati 4 certain. Milne? Burfoot? Feneridis? Turner? McGeorge? Surely not Pritch? Who the f knows with RH

Waitak - Coombes? Butler? Myers? .............. it's all a laugh.

TW - you name 'em

Canty - Clapham?, Kamo? ditto.........

Jesus wept.

"At the end of the drive the lawmen arrive...

I'll take my chance because luck is on my side or something...

Her name is Rio, she don't need to understand...

Oh Rio, Rio, hear them shout across the land..."

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over 12 years ago

Now you are taking the piss Jerzy. It's common knowledge which players are there or thereabouts so it's just a bollocks point. NZF will allow a postponement if a minimum 3 players are called up and there is no team that will so to those whinging, harden up and get on with it. If your team is that materially affected by losing 1 or 2 players, then your team is probably not much chop really.

Grumpy old bastard alert

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over 12 years ago
Blew.2 wrote:
otagofan wrote:

In fairness to NZF, a big chunk of that team just played in the U-17 World Cup. We were considered to have a good chance of making the Round of 16 which was just 1 day ago and given the final isn't til next Friday, having them start next week would be silly.

So based on that the league should not start until after 20 Nov. In fairness to NZF
Why? Only one team is affected by that to the extent of 3 players in the comp regs. And they've been given the postponement.
It's not like that postponed fixture is affecting the league in virtually any way.
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over 12 years ago

Bump.

Actually this is probably the best place to carry on the discussion about funding, expenditure caps, pokies etc

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over 12 years ago

terminator_x wrote:
james dean wrote:

If you, tomorrow, cut the amount that ACFC and Waitakere spent by 25% how would that improve the league?  

But it would never be implemented in the simplistic way you’ve described. For starters, you would give every team the same expenditure budget, not arbitrarily cut a % from the top two. I also think it would work best married up with a mechanism to centralise the acquisition of grant funding for the entire league. And you’re dead right - another franchise or two in Auckland would do a lot to rebalance the talent in a way that doesn’t place unreasonable expectations on players to move. That’s a great example of where an expenditure cap would be valuable - by stopping an inflationary bidding war in Auckland using pokie money.

Sure, the implementation requires some thought but the principle remains very simple. Like every other salary-capped league in the world by giving everyone roughly the same amount to spend you level the playing field and create a more competitive, interesting and engaging competition. But yes, it would not work in isolation (although I don’t think I’ve ever argued for that).

If ACFC and Waitakere were actually generating any significant revenues of their own (gate receipts, commercial sponsorships etc) I might even have a different view. But the fact is they aren’t. Our national league is largely funded by pokie money, which creates all sorts of issues. One of the biggest ones is that it is grossly distorting the competitiveness of the league. The ability to attract pokie money simply should not be a factor in whether a team is successful or not in our national football league, and yet it is probably the single biggest factor. It’s ludicrous! If we have to have pokie money in the sport then we should at least make sure it is used equitably.


Quoting you from the other thread.

You say pokie machine grants are the major factor in competitiveness between the teams.  That's patently wrong.  The difference is that Auckland is a city of 1.3mn people and Dunedin is a city of 60,000 people, and when you look at the best 30 players in Auckland and the best 15 players in Dunedin, surprise surprise Auckland comes up with a lot better football teams.  This is not new!  You could remove all funding from the league tomorrow and that would be true.  The amount teams are spending on payroll is a factor in getting some imports and maybe one or two players.  It does not determine the quality of the bulk of the players who play for Auckland or Otago - that quality is based on the local players in those leagues.


If the league was more equal in spend, how would you improve Otago?  You can't give them money.  You can take away money from Waitak and that may affect their squad to some extent but it doesn't change the fact that the player base is just completely different.  Players are not going to move to Dunedin for 14 matches and some lunch money even if you could suddenly give Otago an extra 50k to spend on players, which is impossible anyway.


Seriously, you need to have a think about this because you're spending a lot of time writing and there's a major non sequitur at the heart of your argument

Normo's coming home

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over 12 years ago

terminator_x wrote:
james dean wrote:

I do question how you can say that there is no difference in the way different franchises are run unless you've been involved.  I think it is fair to ask, have you?

I didn't say that. I said it is not a major factor in the competitive differences between the franchises. Pokie money is. Which, in turn, may lead to some franchises being able to "run themselves better".

As stated above, do we think it is a good thing that in our national football league the single biggest variable in the competitiveness equation is the ability to attract pokie funding? That doesn't even sound like sport any more to me. And that's without even getting into the moral issues and the sustainability issues.

We seriously need to look at the role of pokie funding in all this.

Again - the part in bold is I think completely false.  You can just as easily say that the size and talent of the local player base is the the single biggest variable in the competitiveness of the different teams in the competition.


Auckland club football, Wellington club football and Chch club football are the best competitions and therefore it's no surprise that teams drawn from those leagues have dominated historically!

Normo's coming home

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over 12 years ago

Hello there. The proposition here is worthy of further debate.

What interests me is not so much what Auckland City and Waitakere have in common (healthy pokie funding), but their differences.

 Auckland's facility development over the past decade has been tremendous - Fred Taylor Park is not much different to what it was in the early 90s.

Auckland have a fantastic website and programme, Waitakere not so much.

Auckland have a settled coaching regime, Waitakere not so much.

Auckland have a fan base, Waitakere not so much.

Whatever their source, Auckland have invested well.

And yet, for all that, Waitakere have a great record of performance... perhaps pointing to further significant variables. 

One of these is the quality of administrative personnel to prime the pump and set the agenda on the other fronts.

In the case of WaiBOP (my home club) I would expect to see an improvement in many spheres simply because the operation is now handled by the federation, which has full-time employees who can do a lot of stuff. It no longer requires peope such as myself to do that same stuff on a volunteer basis. (The cost of this will inevitably be spread across the whole family of football in the federation if they can't pull sufficient pokie grants.)

JD, I see what you are doing. But perhaps we should agree REGIONAL leagues are the best competitions. eg, the top Waikato & BOP clubs compete in the same leagues as Auckland clubs, and draw their players from that competition... while the top two teams regularly recruit outside of their regional league.... eg the lad Lowdon is a real find for Waitakere this summer, Spaniards etc at Kiwitea. 

So recruitment made possible by impressive funding may be the key variable?

As a side issue, interesting that the entry fee has risen to $15 a head at Auckland and Waitakere this summer. What do we make of this?

Anyway, please continue your debate.


https://www.facebook.com/groups/nzsportsprogrammes

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