WPFC to O-League and OFC in general

Possibly the best comment made on this thread so far.

If we lose a CWC spot in a couple of years time but didn't place the best possible Oceania team to represent OFC. Then I will be sorely disappointed at the officials rather than the players in particular. However if we are able to include the most competitive Professional side in Oceania ie Wellington Phoenix as part of the competition to represent OFC and they go on to the CWC as the result then if FIFA pulls the plug on OFC rep at the CWC in a couple of years time, then at least I will know that we gave it our best shot and there was not much we could do at all. But if you have no Phoenix (that is a team that significantly better than Auckland and Waitakere)in the O-League, then we have shot ourselves in the foot.

Will the Phoenix be cannon fodder in the CWC? Unlikely to be the 10 man behind the ball game that Auckland or Waitakere employed at the CWC, but they would at least be much more enteraining whether they win or lose at the CWC. And that does count very high in FIFA's decision.

BTW I don't think that Sepp can stand for the next elections as FIFA president as there is a limit to the number of terms he is allow to do so. So he doesn't need 11 Oceania votes because he isn't retaining any job after this term.

We all know that the nix let in goals, but having a short time to call up any good defenders as well as a couple of duds that we had to let go in the first season, means that a few transfers in the right place can be remedied for the next season.

So we should have a better team with the likes of Semeltz, Leo Bertus, Daniel and the possiblity of Ben Sigmund, Durante, Ivan Vicelich (maybe our marquee player?) and Kristian Rees being signing up plus a few others as well, the squad do look a bit more classly than the debut season. A Benjamin Totori should be an very good, cheap and useful striker to get since we know he is classly finisher with a coordinated midfield behind him.

Some of these players are what NZFC teams can only dream about having but yet they are within Wellington Phoenix reach.

You have to think about that and disregard the present squad and look at what is going to happen to the squad make up for the next season. Plus Ricki Herbert should be a stronger tactician than any of the NZFC coaches having just obtained the highest coaching qualification about.

Has Ricki passed the UEFA Pro Licence? At the moment he has the UEFA A Licence and there are quite a few coaches within NZ who hold that.

Ricki as a stronger tactician? Sorry but until Ricki actually produces a team that produces there will always be questions marks on his tactical nous. His clubs sides over the years have generally been middle to bottom of the table finishers. He took the All Whites and has been relatively successful and now he has the Phoenix. We all wait to see what he can do when he has all the resources and time he wants. Coaching is not a nice world and he is in the results world. If the A-League had promotion/relegation then Ricki would have relegated another club. We dont need to sugar coat these things. Last is last.

I agree that there are players that need to come into the Phoenix and it seems like the recruitment is underway.

I doubt you would find many people not prepared to give the Phoenix the CWC spot IF and it's a big IF they were in the playoffs at the very least. If they were to win the A-League then by all means let them go.

If the Phoneix didnt get 10 men behind the ball then they would get beaten easily. the Urawa Reds had to get 10 men behind the ball against Milan. Never confuse a tactic that is presented to give a team the best chance of winning.

Have you watched Champion League matches when teams get 10 men behind the ball and pinch a goal to win 1-0. Entertainment is not the point, winning is the point in the professional game.

If the Phoenix played really "ugly" but effective football and won the A-League would anyone care?

P.S. I am a huge supporter of the Phoenix but I believe they need to earn their place at the table.

I agree Marama, results are all that matter especially at the top level which is pretty much what the CWC is.

We just nab two very solid Australian Defenders, one is a medal winner and the other with 4 years in the NSL and 4 years in Lige 1 the top flight Romanian football league coming back down under.

So that should boost up the defensive end. They are not going to let in as much this time around. A right back, attacking midfielder and a forward is yet to sign up.

Of course result counts, being a former senior coach myself, I know it is not a nice world in coaching. But with some of the inadequate players that you have to work with makes things difficult when you have a batch of players not up to the required level places pressure on the rest of squad, it's like having those players on the injury list but they not injured and you still have them in the training to provide enough workout for the better players. So considering the number of players that Ricki had to release and what was needed, it great to see that there was some great teamwork that he was still able to achieve, despite the placing. This means that he has good stronger team concept in the club. You have to remember it was the tightest A-League yet and tighter historically when you include the NSL in terms of points range in the league table. Everyone was very even right up to the final rounds.

BTW You don't need 10 man behind the ball if you are positional correctly enough, 8 or 9 man can do it right. You only start to see 10 man usually at the beginning and then change it slightly as the game progress and you end up seeing 8 man behind and a grip on the possession control later on. It naturally occurs when teams have not met each other before or one team comes in with a bigger reputation.

The point about entertainment value is that if they look like they are playing positive football and still have plenty of scoring chances then it adds value in what they are trying to achieve and at least have a fighting chance to win. I am not say that counterattacking is the way to go but that in itself requires the right type of training. But Waitakere United for example had never played counterattacking football in O-league and NZFC and then expected them to perform it at the CWC? Oh come please take another pill. They should have designed some of their NZFC games to incorporate that strategy after having a couple of goals up but instead they carried on knocking a few more in for good measure. Sure they shouldn't incorporate it in the vital O-league, but they could have worked some of their ideas in the NZFC.

You saw what Waitakere United did at the CWC. They didn't take the fighting to them until the end. They left their best player on the bench and starting on the defensive and hoped that towards the end, they would get their best player out fresh against the tried opponent, except they were still not tried being full time professionals and having the ball most of the time and a couple of goals up. It was just terrible tactics and strategy and i was annoyed at the coach for the lack of tactical direction. I was screaming at Tv for them to get stuck in once they were a goal down. They really had no idea of counterattacking, the space was not compacted enough to pressure their first touch or owning their space and their fastest and best player is on the bench until the very end. Where did he get his coaching book from? A Weetbix box?

Sorry but it steams me up that the side was approach everything at a pessimistic way. Using pessimistic approach by an semi-professional team against a fully professional side before starting the game is definite designs for defeat. Aim to lose well,eh?

I have turn hopeless teams around to beat the best in the league at regional level, when they definitely out of their league man to man. The attitude counts a lot in the game. The best form of defense is attack because you can get positive stuff from that and it is more focusable and there are clearer directions to play. I understand what the Waitakere Coach was doing but he needed to change after conceding that goal and start playing their own game because it was easier for the players to work with. Play their own game hard out for at least 3/4th of the game and add fresh runners at the 3/4th stage.

Anyway, Phoenix can beat Auckland City and Waitakere United even with the leaky defense. Because they are just a classier outfit.

Ricki's coaching achievement when beyond club championships that he has won.

SPORTING ACHIEVEMENTS

�        89 Full Appearances for New Zealand (Senior Level)
�        Three National League Championships
�        Two Chatham Cups
�        One Australian National Cup
�        1986 Captain New Zealand World Cup Team
�        1984 � 1986 Played for Wolverhampton Wanderers in England:
             55 League appearances
�        1982 Played in World Cup Finals in Spain against:
             Scotland, Russia and Brazil
�        1980 Voted New Zealand �Young Player of the Year�
�        Member of the team voted the Best Playing XIU 1970 � 1995

SPORTING EXPERIENCE

�        Player Experience:
5 � 30 Years of age
�        Represented New Zealand at:
U12, 14, 16, 19, 23 and Senior Levels
�        Senior Playing Experience
1986 � 1989 Mt Wellington
1984 � 1986 Wolverhampton Wanderers UK
1984 Sydney Olympics
1983 University AFC
1982 Trial at Southampton UK
1980 � 1982 Mt Wellington
1980 Trial at Middlesborough UK
1979 Nelson United
1978 Mt Wellington


COACHING ACHIEVEMENTS

�        2004 Olympic Finalists Oceania
�        2003 Confederation Cup Finals France
�        2002 Nations Cup Champions Oceania
�        2000 Oceania Olympic Champions
�        1999 Auckland Coach of the Year
�        1999 National League Champions
�        1999 World Club Championship Playoffs
�        1998 Summer League Grand Final Playoffs
�        1997 Summer League Grand Final Playoffs
�        1992 Grand Finalists : Premier League

COACHING QUALIFICATIONS

�        UEFA �Pro� International Coaching Licence:
Part I Completed - Competent
�        UEFA �A� International Coaching Licence:
�        Australia �A� Licence
�        International Team Coaching Licence (NZ)
�        UEFA �B� International Coaching Certificate
�        National Academy Coaching Licence

            NZ COACH EDUCATORS QUALIFICATIONS
�        Coach Educator Diploma Level
�        Coach Educator Licence Level
�        Coach Educator Certificate Level
�        Coach Educator Development Level
�        Oceania Football Confederation Senior Level
�        Oceania Football Confederation Intermediate Level
�        Oceania Football Confederation Junior Level

COACHING EXPERIENCE

�        2004 Head Coach New Zealand Under 23 Olympic Team
�        2003 Head Coach New Zealand Under 17
�        2001 � 2004 Appointed Assistant Head Coach National Team
�        1999 New Zealand Olympic Under 23
�        1996 � 1999 Central United National Summer League
�        1993 � 1995 Papatoetoe AFC Premier League
�        1990 � 1993 Papakura City AFC Premier League

You have to be hard pushed to see anyone with his record in the country with ticks on both player and coaching record. He will complete his "Pro" licence in June this year. Even Wynton Rufer hasn't got that depth of coaching background and experience at that level.

Thank you for that Mrs Herbert
was he a good baby or did he cry a lot?

Very concise Mr AllWhitebelievr

Very concise I agree considering it is straight out of Wikipedia.

My question to AllWhiteBeliever is have you ever coached in the National League or the NZFC?

Whether I think the coach of Waitakere and Auckland City at the CWC got it right or wrong, I dont think either of them got their coaching badges from a weetbix box and I would almost guarantee they are a lot more qualified that any of us.

How many of us would win coaching against the likes of Herbert, Jones, Tuaa, Jacobs, Wilkinson or Milicich is a moot point as none of us are good enough coaches to coach against them.

I didnt say that Ricki wasnt a good coach what I said was "Is Ricki a stronger technician than all the NZFC Coaches?" - Consider that Bobby Gould (coach of Wimbledon in the Premiership) is one of the NZFC Coaches and so was Alan Jones who has been a professional football coach for 30 years.

Keith Pritchard was a full professional for many years and won the old National League repeatedly and was voted NZ Coach of the year 3 or 4 times and is now a director of football of US1. He was All Whites coach and if my memory serves me right did very very well the few games he coached. So he has a very strong pedigree as well.

Coaches coach at the level they are currently at, the good ones move forward and the lessor ones get found out and fall by the wayside a bit. Like anything in life people have to find out their limitations and where they fit. To sit on the sidelines and watch TV and criticise is very easy but the only thing you can go on is consistent winning seasons and results.

Looks like a great record but as a head coach there is only one Championship winning team in there: 1999 National League Champions with Central United and there are two 2000 and 2004 Oceania Olympic Championships when Australia was hosting the Olympics and in Asia.

Jacobs and Tuaa are qualifying their teams without Australia in oceania and Jacobs has won the old National League as a coach so winning Oceania if done properly is not that big a hurdle.

When NZ got beaten 5-0 by Venezula, 4-0 by Costa Ricca, 5-0 by Blackburn Rovers it was accepted by us all. When our U17's got hammered by 6 and 5 goals in the U17 World Cup we all accepted it and very little came out about our National Teams. When our U20's from a few years ago didnt finish in the top two of an Oceania Tournament did anyone say anything.

So why are our club sides who go and play top ranked professional outfits derided when they get beaten by 3-1 and 3-0 at a FIFA ranked tournament not a qualifying tournament?

We saw how it worked when "attack was the best policy" when the U17's got countered repeatedly after trying to outplay a team and where beaten systematically pulled apart. Players cannot be asked to play outside their technical range to compete against better players is a saying that Alan Jones has and he is correct. If Waitakere had opened up and played against Sepahan and played wonderful football and got smashed by 6 would Sepp have said - brilliant football please keep coming. If I remember right Waitakere didnt get 10 men back behind the ball as they had Emblen and Totori up front all game so maybe they only had 8 behind the ball. No coach in the world can predict your team will concede two goals in the first 3 minutes. He managed to settle them down and then got them into the game after halftime. Take out the stupid gk screwup they dominated the last third of the game. Been a while since I have seen a professional side get hurried up like that by a NZ team. He has to live and die with his tactics and watching on TV isnt like being there live. Who knows what he did or didnt do.

FIFA is political and a cesspit and I for one never believe anything that comes out of them as they all follow their own agendas.

Ricki is a very good coach and he is doing wonderful things with the Phoenix yet the question marks still remains can he make them a top four finisher.

I wrote that part of the Wikipedia article as I do with some of the oceania football as a registered wikipedian. The information was acquired from the christchurch press when he given the NZ head coach before the match against Australia in England. It's not hard to check that on the net really.

OK I was a bit harsh on the coach getting his badge from the weetbix, it was merely an emotive response to what was an obvious level 3 oceania coaching. He was a bit slow and too late to react.

But to fill you in about me although I am not really that noticable unless you actually seen me behind the scenes.

I have been part of the regional club coaching structure (so just one tier under the national league but had an very "small" admin role) just before the advent of NZFC and was youngest level 2 coach at least in the south island. At the time there maybe about less than 40 coaches at that level about the country when I done the course. It would have been grow by almost double or even triple I think before they scrapped it for the present structure. I have over 4 years coaching at that level but unable to break into the NZFC franchise coaching staff when they first came out because everyone had their "old"favourites, so I pulled out for the last 4 years to get a degree and find a more secure financial base. This is also before the advent of the high performance funding by sparc.

As for me as a player, If you think that lonegunman was unlucky for being a failed QRP trialist, then you haven't seen the knee injury that I had got, it was as bad as Micheal Owens World Cup injury. I was due to try out for the Ipswich trials 6 months later at the then division one (before EPL) and never got overseas! Didn't played football until 7 years later, it was a career breaking injury.

So 7 years later after the injury, I decided to small comeback and plod around the field socially. Then all of an sudden people fast tracked me into the coaching because I had "some" higher football experience. TBH I do not think that I was noticiable and still don't think so. I sort of like to keep to myself.

I have been coached or been coached developed by Ken Dugdale, Roger Brookes, Micheal McGarry, John Headman, Steve Fleming, Johnan Koustraal, Steve Green, Kelvin Scoller, Barry White. Been involved in most football coaching level set ups except at NZFC level. But still have contacts with a number of coaches in the Canterbury, Otago and Manawatu regions but only one NZFC coach contact now although it wouldn't be hard to pick other along the way.

But you are right about the coaches and then I am not sure whether you have been aware about the big troubles we have in developing coaching up to the elite level. There is two sides to that set up, still.

(Still I will make a comeback later down the track. I am still young and have time on my side.) :) So I plan to renew my coaching in the new system in the next 5 years and then redevelop the youth and senior infrastructure outside regional elite but with budding players

There about the top 20 coaches in NZ that is hard to break that shell and they have a monopoly on the top jobs in a small market of NZ, however if they get tossed by one group, they get hired by another over many other potential coaches that deserve the shot at the elite level. Lots of coaches I know get knacked off by this because this coach has done such and such 20 years ago and have coaching at this level for a long time so he should know what to do.

But there are still outdated strategies and tactics used in the 70s and have not upskilled themselves to the latest. Some have used some 80's research and bits of the 90's stuff.

The reality is that we are very backwards in the coaching development in NZ and with John Headman being caught up in running the women's football teams, He is not always about to devote time to upskill coaches.

At the moment, him and Ricki are the only ones right on the edge of world football research. I have introduced some of these skill sessions to some of the senior club football players last season and it received hardly any understanding, but yet the same skill session introduced to youth players or regional level players, it was received with results. And then you introduce another session that was mainly developed for youth football but is used for senior football as a refresher. The senior clubs players still failed and this club is a very dormant club as well. (I will not mention their club name as most clubs even some of the successful ones have the same problems). John had said that there was problems in expecting the "older ones" to pick it up because "you can't teach old dogs new tricks" but yet even if an All White is doing it wrong you still have to correct him. So the failure comes from the lack of full time football experience of the players as well as lack of decent coaching from the age of 4 and upwards.

Wynton is the one person who have pick this up to some degree. NZFC has their small whites programme but it is too basic as well as lack of advance follow up work. I don't personally think they are totally on the right track with it.

But I personally have a football plan and a business plan to work on in the next 10 years (at least) to get me where I want, before showing beginnings of some infrastructure, but the results will not happen until 30 years later so the new babies of this generation will be the future of our country, if I got my way. I just have to convince NZF and other people in the right football circles. But l'll get my degree first and develop some ground work later. I won't particularly be in coaching but maybe more administrative.

Still I like to spin a few ideas about on this forum and compare to other football forums to test the public opinion and sort certain aspects of the plan.

BTW Sepp want us out as soon as Australia jumped Ship. It was no news that his idea for Oceania teams to play the host country in the CWC06 when Auckland City was playing although FIFA committee didn't allow it. but after the CWC06, they change their minds and followed Sepps idea for CWC 07. Sepp is not interested in Oceania being successful at the very top end.

So Ok this is the first forum to have a sniff of my plans. It may be a bit ambitious, but I am hoping to snap a few people on board who I know is forward thinking and has influence in the right places. If it comes right, it would be quick and smart foundations to lay down. I just have to careful about it and keep a small profile other than this forum. (my profile is under the radar and I like to remain that way - but people have their time in the sun like Terry S the WP owner and he has done well in a different avenue to what i would be doing) It wouldn't be the NZFC things (cause i am bit one side opinion on such things) that I will work on, but on player development rather. Some of the stuff are worked on by certain people already and so I am keeping an eye out on them to see how well they are going with the establishment. It a mixed result so far and I don't see any movement in neither direction.

BTW UEFA pro licience is way more higher than UEFA A licience, it is more up to date than you think and more organising and reassessing strategy and tactics etc. It's practically the A to Z in start running everythingat a minimum standard. i.e. it a whole educational programme developed. Considering that B,A and Pro licence has only been about 1998 so it is still relatively newish being about 10 years.

Our coaches can only receive the coach education available within New Zealand. When Paul Smalley was running the coach education he implemented a whole series of different steps - as you are no doubt aware. All NZFC coaches had to have passed the International Coaching Licence and if my memory serves me right all the current NZFC coaches have that Licence. It is comparable to the UEFA "B" Licence. I think there are about 20 coaches in the country that would have the International Team Coaching Licence but that is a guess at best.

Some of our national coaches received Prime Ministerial Scholarships to advance their coaching and others have had to pay their own way to the UK do the UEFA "A" Licence.
I know that Brett McMurdoch has completed both sections of the A Licence - not sure if he passed. There was a group of four that went over a year ago to do the "A" licence. So our coaches are trying to do the A Licence but it comes down to the money as always.

I agree that there are 20 top coaches in the country and it is hard to break in but I would imagine it has always been the same. The young ones who broke in like Jacobs, Marshall, Tuaa, Edge, Pammett and Milicich had to start somewhere and show they could coach by winning and not many of them started in the national league or the NZFC. Most of them started in the regional leagues. Sure their playing pedigrees gave them a jump start over the rest of us but then their playing pedigree also gives them a greater knowledge and feeling for the game. Some of them failed along the way and are no longer coaching but the others are working their way to the top.

They all seem to make mistakes as they move up but they keep getting better and they are this countries best bets for advancement. We need to give them every opportunity to improve and to compete against the very best we can. Sure Jacobs, Tuaa and Milicich have reacted slowly in some of the international games they have coached recently but surely they have all learnt from the experience and we wont see the same mistakes occur again. All of them need to keep being challenged against the best coaches and teams internationally NZ can find. They need to harden up and get up to speed at a level we can't provide for them in the NZFC. I liken it to the first time you do something you seem to struggle but the more you do it you are able to cope easily with it OR you will never cope with it but you wont know if you can cope or not unless you test yourself against it.

The tactics of the 70's and 80's needs to go and for those coaches who still espouse those tactics need to be brought up to speed. Two of the worst coaches for those tactics are Wilkinson and Jones and they both have the UEFA A Licence so there is no guarantee that a licence is structured to play good football.

This NZFC when I have gone and watched Auckalnd City play Waitakere I have laughed at the after match comments of Tuaa when he says that Waitakere are a direct football team. What Waitakere do is they stop City playing their normal game and they disrupt them individually. Waitakere then isolate the two fullbacks for Auckland City and have either Pearce or Totori running at them and turning them around. The City midfield is very slow to pick up the box runs of either seaman or butler and they overload the City back four. Smart tactics and it gets them the wins but is it good football to watch and the answer is no.

If you watch either Auckland City or Waitakere United play another team in the NZFC then City try and play the same but Waitakere change their tactics to suit. The game when they beat Hawkes Bay 5-0 was an example of how to play football. The ball speed and movement of their players with the ball on the deck was an absolute joy to watch and some of their goals were very well crafted. Any young player watching that would have seen how to play. I for one was surprised at how well they passed the ball on the deck and how easily they controlled the game. Hawkes Bay sat off them and it seemed to give them time to play.

We (Waikato) played Waitakere on the weekend and we played so well. We kept attacking them and we caused them real problems. If we had a top striker we might have scored a goal and caused an upset. They started poorly but they didnt panic, they didnt change their set-up until Milicich changed the structure in the middle of the their midfield 10 minutes before halftime and lo and behold they scored two goals. Once they had a man sent off we were never going to score as he totally changed his formation and created two banks of 4 that compacted up the space and denied us any time or opportunities. There starting formation seemed to be a 3-4-3 with 3 out and out strikers attacking at all times, a far cry from the negative formation he played in Japan.

My point is that obviously Milicich learnt his lesson in Japan and his team has certainly been a much more formidable unit since they came back. Tuaa maybe didn't learn his lesson at the U17 World Cup as he seems to struggle to change his tactics to beat Waitakere. Jacobs has taken over Wellington and finally given them a team that can compete - would that have been possible prior to taking the U20's to the World Cups.

These are our best three young coaches and NZ Football needs to give them every opportunity to get better. We need to get them offshore and in the best coaching courses we can find for them. We need to get them to coach against the best coaches in the world on a regular basis and they must get the support.

We might then have international teams that can compete and maybe we would end up with a benchmark for the next group of young coaches to strive for.

I am a huge supporter of football in NZ. I am originally from the Waikato but now live in Auckland, but I support Waikato first and foremost. Every weekend you will find me watching either City or Waitakere in the summer and I pick the best match-up for the Northern Premier league in the winter. I love football played well but after all these years I have seen all sorts of coaches and players come and go and one thing I have seen is that bad coaches eventually get found out. My job precludes me from having any real input either as an administrator or coach as most weekdays I am working until 8pm but my dream is to one day use my business knowledge to help a strong club and group of players to succeed with their dreams.

I think that International Team Coaching Licence (NZ) is bascially above UEFA 'B' Licence but below UEFA 'A' Licence level and the National Academy Certificate is above Junior Advanced Certificate and is either below or equal to UEFA 'B' Licence.

When I go back on a coaching course I am not totally sure if I be doing Junior Advanced Certificate or National Academy Certificate since my old expired Level 2 was a bit of both as I understand. I am hoping that I would be accepted straight into National Academy Certificate and not do junior advanced certificate. Especially since I have done a mixture of "B" and 'A' licence type sessions in some of my practice before.

I probably require a refresher in the Junior Advanced Certificate like a level 2 renewer and then do National Academy Certificate in the one year. I suppose that National academy is like old level 3 in which you have to group up in a camp for two weeks. (It means back to the gym for me) It's back to the basics again.

Anyway back to topic, OFC spot in the CWC is in trouble still and I think that we have to do everything we could do for the benefit of Oceania football and not just NZ football or NZ club football. We have to see the bigger picture and stop bickering over "whats fair?" for either WP or NZFC teams but it should be over "what's best for OFC?" And I say let it be sorted on the football field to get the best OFC team out there. WP is a NZ team that plays home games in NZ, we need to prove that whoever is there in CWC is the best that OFC has to offer. There should be a way to determine that and a playoff is fair enough to determine that. The rules and change to those rules can be sorted for time for CWC.

But I have to concede that we may need to wait until next year or it will not happen or we set a preside for the other teams in the same fix as the WP are.

I don't want to lose the OFC CWC spot as it is impossible to getting it back once we lose it. and OFC clubs will never bother putting much effort to it again and just save money and stay in the domestic programmes and have no O-league.

If lose it in one way or another, then I think we should just forget about O-league and have funding and work towards World Cup 2010. By not having a O-league we are saying no to CWC. We don't need them and tell them that we never wanted to create the O-league if they weren't going to allow us in. And that is the truth.

I like this,

lets have a revolution.. . .

"We could say the CWC isn't fairly called as such because we are not invited." We could just leave it all and forget about being in Asia and forget about any goal developmental in OFC. Any OFC Fifa officials will quit FIFA and any FIFA officials come over we deport them. FIFA must not push us around no longer. We get our soccer balls and play international rules football or likely Gaelic football.

OK that is nutty but I really wouldn't mind if we stick it to them for once. I like to "Verbally threaten" them for once. I hate them for give us a Candy and stealing it from us, it's painful.AllWhitebelievr2008-03-05 19:19:12

What part of 'Not an Oceania Club' do you not understand?

None of it by the sound of it
funny how he keeps saying we all time then talking about an Australian club

Happyted, there is obviously debate over whether the Phoenix are eligible for participation in the o league, but to suggest they are an australian club is stupid.  They are based in Wellington and quite clearly are a NZ club playing in an australian competition.  Try telling Cardiff fans that they support an English club.

phil_style2008-03-08 06:19:03

Cardiff Swansea and the goats dont play in any welsh competitions and Toronto likewise for Canada
they accept the fact that they dont want to play in there countries comp so therefore lose any rights that go with so u move something the Phoenix can not accept  

BillyAuckland, for a number of reasons that I won�t go into here (because they have already been covered) I also don�t think that the Phoenix should play in the O League.  But O League participation and representing Oceania in the CWC are two different issues.  The Phoenix are genuinely a unique case in world football, a club that crosses confederations and as such they are in a difficult position.  There are of course, as I acknowledged above, arguments going both ways, good arguments.  Personally, and I acknowledge this does nothing in the long  term, I think the Phoenix should play the winner of the O League in a match to see who represnts the confederation in the CWC, for say the next two years.  This gets sepp blatter off our backs (and I am talking in a confederation sense) and hopefully in two or so years the Phoenix will be eligible for Asian competitions (as they should be) and the NZFC will have imporved to a level that our clubs can compete at that level.  I cheered both Auckland city and Waitakere all the way at the CWC, as I do every team that represents NZ, but even as a most blinkered football fan I could see they were hopelessly outclassed (as they should be against any decent professional opposition).  I completely understand the position of the NZFC club chairmen, they are appointed to do the best for their club.  But at some point we have to look at the bigger picture.

how about you tell me why you think you are an NZ club then? 

It aint gonna happen boys now you have been told enough times!!!
stamp your feet all you want about how you should be in the O-League
the fact that it is called the "O" -League should give you a clue as to why you are not wanted, needed or entitled to compete in it.
besides you've got enough to worry about next season defending that wooden spoon you won so well happyted2008-03-08 22:36:09

Care to justify that ?

I call bullsh*t.

Indeed.  Still, at least the Phoenix reserves never beat the first team, unlike your lot... can't even get close to Waitak on a pitch this season can you ?

Yet we're still top. Funny that.

Really ?

I must have misread this then, sorry...

OFC O-League Table

Group A
Team               Pts
Waitakere United    7
Auckland City       3
AS Mau Ura          1

NZFC?

The thread is about the O-League sir, and if people feel the need to have a swipe at the Phoenix's finishing position then they need to be prepared to take some stick back (generally you are not included in those taking shots at the Phoenix).

Haha have you grabbed those straws yet?
Bottom of league after 21 games or 2nd in O-League groupA after 2 games
i know were i'd rather be
its not a swipe its a fact

Doesnt really matter were we are in O-League anyway because you clowns will never be in it

Sigh.

The Canadian League is a very weak league beforehand, it would make no difference. I used to play with an Canadian player who played regular games in their CNSL/CPSL the forerunners to CSL. He consider it as an very weak domestic competition to what we have in the National Club League and the new CSL increase in strength is similar to NZFC increase in strength but still weaker but more teams.

Sigh.

So by your logic, any Canadian team is US american team because they are in the same confederation? Not because they are in the MSL? You losing your own point of view now. Your point will be stronger if you mention same MSL competition not same confederation. How am I going tell you that you are wrong if I have to correct your side of the argument and then tell you that you are still wrong.

Get your facts right.

Anyway, CSL has not been affected by Toronto's inclusion to the MLS.

There are three canadians team in the US. Toronto FC in MLS, Montreal Impact and Vancouver Whitecaps in the USL 1st Div. All are considered higher leagues than CSL. CSL is considered to be at USL 2nd Div level.

The CSL has 13 teams, 7 in the national division and 6 in the international division in which then have a 8-team playoffs competition. The Toronto Croatia in the CSL are still the current champions and are not affected by the Toronto FC in the MLS. Toronto FC, out of their 28 (18 rostered & 10 development) man squad, they are allow 15 international players of which 10 are non-americans (two more international players than their US counterparts) to compensate for their smaller talent pool in canada.

Also they historically had always have a Toronto team (since 1979) that was in and out of American soccer leagues before the MLS in the NASL and NSL. After the NASL collapse they were back in the CSL in 1987, So only their APSL inclusion in 1992, did affect the Canadian League (CSL collapsed. It was done in the hope of USL 1st Div later on but the US federation after the 1994 FIFA WC decide to create MLS without them and so they were bankrolled out after the 1993 season.

So Toronto has teams mingled in the US professional soccer system for ages. It does not affect the CSL. Their other Toronto team are still current champions without them.

Toronto has one team (TFC) at the bottom of the MLS by a large gap and their other team (Toronto Croatia) is top of the CSL. A bit like Auckland was which one team (knights) at the bottom of the A-league by a large gap but their other team (ACFC) top of the NZFC. The NZFC weren't affected by the Knights inclusion in A-League so CSL weren't affect by the Toronto inclusion in the MLS, the level is not high enough to notice the shortfall in the quality of players.

Toronto is like Auckland was in their debut season.

Now spot the difference;

Toronto= Different country to the MLS competition, playing in same confederation. Not US Amercians but Canadians playing in US and in Canada. Playing only in CONCACAF. Not rejected by CONCACAF.

Cardiff=Different home nation to the EPL competition, playing in same confederation. Not English but Welshmen playing in England and in Wales. Playing only in UEFA. Not rejected by UEFA.

Wellington=Different country to A-League competition, playing in two different Confederation. Not Australians but New Zealanders playing in Australia and in New Zealand. Playing in both AFC and in OFC. Rejected by AFC. Considered by OFC.

Can you spot the difference?

It is the country of origin not the competition of origin that is considered for the club of origin in context of confederation competition, that is why AFC reject WP because WP is not asian.

Both Toronto and Cardiff can get to the CONCACAF and UEFA Champion leagues but by a different competition route. Toronto to top MSL first and Cardiff to get to EPL and top that. Wellington Phoenix cannot get to AFC Champions league by topping A-League and since they are based in the OFC, then they should consider O-league entry. OFC wants them in but they have to wait for FIFA's approval, yet.

WP cannot be typically compare to Toronto and Cardiff, they are a different case. Toronto and Cardiff can't make the same case because they have competitional access, howbebit a difficult one. WP don't that that at all, because they play their home games in OFC and is a NZ team in the NZ capital.

Different Story, different circumstances. If you say there no difference then you cannot seriously read or have sorely mistaken.

So Toronto Lynx, Ottawa Fury. Thunder Bay Chill, Abbottsford Mariners are not teams that play in Canada then?
If you are gonna try and be a smart arse at least get your facts right
and didnt Toronto Lynx pull out of USL1 mainly due to Toronto having an MLS team?
And of course if all these teams played in a Canadian only it would be a lot stronger would it not?

Not wrong, the fact that the Phoenix play in a different Confederation is the main reason that they cant compete in the 'o' league.

I can't believe this is still being discussed. It's not about the merit of the phoenix as a team or how they perform. The nix shouldn't be in the O-League because they play in an Asian League. The nix shouldn't play in the ACL, because Wellington is not in Asia. You may not like it, but its true.

The real problem is that Australia left Oceania causing this rift in the first place. Its caused other issues too; such as New Zealand's free ride to the World Cup. New Zealand should have ambitions of getting into the AFC to lift their standard (for national and club teams), not using a band-aid measure of getting a professional team from an Australian league to try and make oceania look better than it is.

Whether that would actually happen or not? Probably not, I don't know enough about it. It also means the NZFC teams would have to go through the ACL, which I can guarantee they wouldn't like. Hmm.

Stiill being discussed because this lot on here cant accept being told NO!! u cant have it
they must of been awful children 

mmmm...unless I'm mistaken, no one has said NO!!... all they have said is "not this year".

See what i mean!!!

Sigh.

Toronto Lynx had problems for an very long time way before Toronto FC even arrive because of poor results and poor crowd attendance. (Almost like having NZ Knights before Wellington Phoenix.) The crowds that Toronto Fc are getting are comparable to Wellington Phoenix. That is success off field. They didn't change from USL1 to USL Premier Development League because of the Toronto FC, they changed because everything was failing including not able to retain players long enough for stability and coaching vs owners selection conflicts. I suppose that Toronto FC means that that their last hundreds of crowd will be off to watch a higher brand of football but they are only a nail in the coffin and not the coffin.

Toronto Lynx switched to the USL Premier Development League, the highest Amateur league because it is cheaper and a better player shopping window for the players to play in the MLS. MLS level is better than CSL level, that is a known.

Of course if all those teams were playing in the CSL, they would be small, poor and would never get players worth the money. All those players would never seriously consider playing in the CSL (unless they retired to there), because the pay is not in their salary level. and they would likely be snapped up by American USL1 or MLS sides.

CSL is an very poor level to play in. No one is in the National Team plays in the CSL. They would be either overseas or in the MLS or USL1. There is an very good reason for that.

Don't you know that the Canadian teams in the US soccer leagues play their home games in Canada and away game in the US other than the Canadian teams

Sheeeee . . .

Sure the CSL would be stronger, but not that at high enough level for the players to play in. Not worth the effort and seriously undermines the player development. The gap is even more than NZFC and A-league.

Until Canada can get the CSL players outside MLS and USL1 and the paypacket at at the same level. You won't see MLS/USL1/USLPDL player back home.

You get your facts right. . . . Sheeee. . .