COVID comparing

Legend
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over 14 years

So just talking NZ tourism?
Which means keeping out backpackers and working holidays and just allowing people who…
How does that work? 
Only allowing pre-booked tours?
Legend
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about 7 years
martinb

So just talking NZ tourism?
Which means keeping out backpackers and working holidays and just allowing people who…
How does that work? 
Only allowing pre-booked tours?

Yes how do you actually cap tourist numbers? Sounds a possible logistical mess. And whilst definitely some frustration with the pre Covid tourist model, those views within NZ could themselves differ wildly.

How do you just target high end tourists? High end adventure activities? High end glamping? NZ just don't have the classy culture stuff, hot warm beach holidays or big city destination excitement that a lot of wealthy older tourists want in their crammed 2-3 week annual vacation. Plus NZ is just such a long flight from most wealthy countries.

Just bus load after bus load of Chinese package bus tours, with most of that cash just doing a Chinese loop, ie little actually spent in NZ? Cruise ships bit more of the same, though yes they can spend when they land.

Are 30 flights a week of high end tourists staying for 3 weeks, better for the environment than 15 flights a week of backpackers staying 1 year?

Are backpackers now a hugely important component of the seasonal NZ workforce, and Agri sector would suffer greatly esp without them?
No matter the pay on offer these jobs will be unpopular with Kiwis, esp with a 3.8% unemployment rate. Plus the Recognised Seasonal Employer (RSE) scheme workers sometimes bring in some social issues, so expanding that won't be a one stop solution.

Tidy up the whole freedom camper mess. Vans only with proper toilets etc etc Part way to solving some issues.

Sure good time for a rethink, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Marquee
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over 11 years
Well, our tourism taxes and levy's are already much lower than countries like the UK and Australia. There's plenty of room to increase those.
Legend
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about 7 years
Ryan
Well, our tourism taxes and levy's are already much lower than countries like the UK and Australia. There's plenty of room to increase those.

Doesn't stop a few million backpackers heading to Oz each year, and never will, when they have plans to work and just factor it into their travel/arrival setup costs. It's a right of passage for young kids from wealthier countries to travel enmasse for a year or so, and NZ & Aus will always remain 2 attractive destinations, for play & some work.

Plus you are often so caught up in the excitement & exhaustive planning of the trip itself, any nasty extra fees you encounter when you arrive you just take grudingly on the chin. You can't know everything, everywhere pre arrival.

Plus it's a long way from Frankfurt to NZ. You maybe never back, a once in a lifetime chance, before the set path of adult life intervenes. A $200 border tax, ain't going to deter even a 23 year old German with a bagful of Aussie dollars slogged picking mangoes. They want a holiday. They want to go to beautiful NZ. They'll just drop their drinking budget for a week or so.
Legend
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over 14 years
Also the idea that New Zealand is an exclusive island for those visiting their Queenstown mansions or various functionaries and so on really shouldn’t sit easy either…

There may need to be a change. The question is will there and what. The likelihood that the industry (quite recently NZ’s biggest) could be corralled seems unlikely once people can travel again.
 It would need more than top down work- it’d need a general consensus across the country. 

The freedom camping thing seems odd- we sold off all these camp grounds and now they’re verges and car parks, is that right? I mean I definitely could see movement there. 



Legend
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about 7 years
Legend
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over 14 years
coochiee
The reason why - frustrating as it is for many - that NZ's border (sans MIQ) remains shut.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300493592/covid19-omicron-will-overwhelm-an-already-overwhelmed-system-doctor-fears

Boosters jumped 10 to 17% quite quickly. Vaccination is very good. Child vaccination being rolled out.  
Kind of a race to get as much done as possible before it arrives/gets through. 
But also if those numbers are up border restrictions should be reduced…
Marquee
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over 11 years
IMO they'll only be reduced when the promised Omicron specific booster is out and a chunk of the population has it.
Legend
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about 7 years
An interesting & sobering read from those on the front line in NSW (a health system supposedly better resourced than NZ).

As frustrating as hell as continued travel restrictions and such are - they are there mostly for good reason. Our health staff really deserve our support for what is going to be a couple of very tough months for them.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-13/covid-omicron-wave-hospitals-doctors-nurses/100815748

Because we’re in a locked area, if something’s happening, others can’t really see. A patient ran away and got herself all tangled up with all the drips and everything. A new grad nurse was trying to hold her down. She was screaming and she pressed the button for help, and no-one came.

I ran to help her, and while I was trying to help, I was screamed at by an unvaccinated patient. He was telling me COVID was fake and he wanted to go home. I’m trying to explain to him that he came in very sick. We had to give him adrenaline to help him breathe. The next day, he felt better and it didn’t click in his mind that we actually prevented him from dying.
Marquee
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over 11 years
NSW had a few problems though, Omicron set in before they were as vaccinated as we are and before they rolled out their boosters, they also started with AZ which is reportedly not as good as Pfizer.

Their contact tracing and testing infrastructure was also overwhelmed very quickly. At the peak more than 50% of tests were positive. You want the percent positive to be under 5% to know you've got control of the virus.

Then they didn't have enough nurses so they had to send infected nurses back into the front line, which of course didn't help prevent the spread of covid among staff.

Obviously we're rolling out the booster aggressively and hopefully we've got enough contact tracing and testing capacity to keep the peak from overwhelming the health system. And, if it does, hopefully we've got enough staff in reserve to help out. A friend of mine who was a nurse years ago before changing career has been asked to be on call for when the hospitals start to struggle, and I guess there's plenty of people like that out there.

Good news is, if you're vaccinated, which most of us are, the rate of hospitalisation and then death is quite low. 

Interestingly friends of mine overseas think we're mad for having as few restrictions as we have as an omicron outbreak is arriving, we've gone from very strict virus restrictions to very loose ones in pretty rapid succession. We're obviously trusting Pfizer a lot with this.
tradition and history
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almost 15 years
You sound like you are JA's  spin doctor.
Ryan
NSW had a few problems though, Omicron set in before they were as vaccinated as we are and before they rolled out their boosters, they also started with AZ which is reportedly not as good as Pfizer.

Their contact tracing and testing infrastructure was also overwhelmed very quickly. At the peak more than 50% of tests were positive. You want the percent positive to be under 5% to know you've got control of the virus.

Then they didn't have enough nurses so they had to send infected nurses back into the front line, which of course didn't help prevent the spread of covid among staff.

Obviously we're rolling out the booster aggressively and hopefully we've got enough contact tracing and testing capacity to keep the peak from overwhelming the health system. And, if it does, hopefully we've got enough staff in reserve to help out. A friend of mine who was a nurse years ago before changing career has been asked to be on call for when the hospitals start to struggle, and I guess there's plenty of people like that out there.

Good news is, if you're vaccinated, which most of us are, the rate of hospitalisation and then death is quite low. 

Interestingly friends of mine overseas think we're mad for having as few restrictions as we have as an omicron outbreak is arriving, we've gone from very strict virus restrictions to very loose ones in pretty rapid succession. We're obviously trusting Pfizer a lot with this.
Marquee
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over 11 years
And you sound like you should be at the anti-vax march.
Marquee
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about 11 years
Reminder now, play the ball and not the man
Marquee
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over 11 years
Just a bit of banter
Legend
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about 7 years
Ryan
NSW had a few problems though, Omicron set in before they were as vaccinated as we are and before they rolled out their boosters, they also started with AZ which is reportedly not as good as Pfizer.

Their contact tracing and testing infrastructure was also overwhelmed very quickly. At the peak more than 50% of tests were positive. You want the percent positive to be under 5% to know you've got control of the virus.

Then they didn't have enough nurses so they had to send infected nurses back into the front line, which of course didn't help prevent the spread of covid among staff.

Obviously we're rolling out the booster aggressively and hopefully we've got enough contact tracing and testing capacity to keep the peak from overwhelming the health system. And, if it does, hopefully we've got enough staff in reserve to help out. A friend of mine who was a nurse years ago before changing career has been asked to be on call for when the hospitals start to struggle, and I guess there's plenty of people like that out there.

Good news is, if you're vaccinated, which most of us are, the rate of hospitalisation and then death is quite low. 

Interestingly friends of mine overseas think we're mad for having as few restrictions as we have as an omicron outbreak is arriving, we've gone from very strict virus restrictions to very loose ones in pretty rapid succession. We're obviously trusting Pfizer a lot with this.

My first 2 jabs were AZ, in Aussie. First I've heard that it's reportedly not as effective as Pfizer (booster I got in Peru!). 

Real issue with AZ in Aus was that it was linked to a very small number of blood clotting deaths. A tiny number in overall picture but enough to make the news, and give the anti vaxxers ammunition. This despite you being at far greater risk of dying from Delta unvaccinated, than getting a dangerous blood clot from being vaccinated. 

There was also some confusing messaging from Aus Govt/health authorities re AZ. It first being recommended for above 50 age bracket, then above 60. This after Aus Govt, signed a contract to manuafcture AZ in Melbourne, so in many ways tying their early vaccine programme to AZ.

But yes Ryan on the other points you make I agree. NZ is in much better position than NSW, was when Omicron arrived. But it is still going to be a couple of tough months ahead for NZ's frontline health workers, and that ABC article shows how demoralising/soul destroying it all can be for health staff, if the system gets overwhelmed and they feel govt fish heads are just outright lying to the public - covering their arses. Leggy obviously doesn't know any nurses working in NSW.

I've never voted Labour in my life, but I think Jacinda & Co have overall done a pretty good job, and NZ is in a good position. This from someone currently overseas, affected by the closed border situation, impatient for this whole Covid fudgeer to end. And I'd also state that QLD (Labor Govt) where I've lived alot past 10 years, has done a better job than NSW (Liberal/National Govt) re managing Covid. I'm grown up enough I think, to look beyond the blind politics to assess who's done a good job & who hasn't.
tradition and history
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almost 15 years
NZ Press says it is an anti mandate protest not anti vax
Ryan
And you sound like you should be at the anti-vax march.
Legend
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over 14 years
The NZ press has called the protest both anti-mandate and anti-vax. It's tough to really get a read on what theya re protesting as there as so many different groups attached to it all. Most are anti-mandate (I think) with the odd group of anti vaxxers there along with the usual odd bods anti 1080'rs, anti-labour, Trumpian supporters, I eve saw a Epstein conspiracy theory sign this morning - god knows what he thought the NZ govt could do about that.
Lawyerish
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I’ll be keeping an eye out and watching the online stream leggy to see you typing your forum messages on your phone 😂
tradition and history
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Fortunately I don't have a smart phone :)
AucklandPhoenix
I’ll be keeping an eye out and watching the online stream leggy to see you typing your forum messages on your phone 😂
Lawyerish
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over 11 years
The 5G stuff. Understand 
tradition and history
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Nothing to do with that. I have a computer so I don't need a fancy phone.
AucklandPhoenix
The 5G stuff. Understand 
LG
Legend
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almost 15 years
Sadly, what was an Anti mandate & Anti Vax protest got hijacked by rent-a-mob. Every cause is there. I'm surprised Tamaki hasn't made an appearance after "being asked" to go. Sad thing for me, is that the genuine people whom wanted to be heard are going to be used by those with more dubious agendas and that they will be the ones in the firing line whilst the string pullers will remain anonymous.
Marquee
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over 11 years
Tamaki is already charged with breach of his bail conditions, destiny church is there amd have hijacked the protest some what. 
Legend
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over 14 years
Have to be honest anti-vax is very fringe by NZ standards. 

95% of people are vaccinated. I can’t think of something that 95% agree on. Not the ABs, not sunscreen, not tea or coffee, not the Queen, not Billy T James, not even driving on the left side of the road- though that’s perhaps the closest…

If you are anti-vaccine or anti-mandate in New Zealand, which to me seem to really amount to the same thing, you aren’t listening to every elected MP, to the Ministry of Health, doctors, newspapers, TV or radio, to your friends, colleagues or family, celebrities and esteemed community members and even some cartoon characters. 

That’s a lot of people to say thanks, but no thanks to. I can understand perhaps people who have had terrible experiences with the crown- which there are too many of. 

But 95% vaccinated- I hope I never need see anything again in my life so bad that it requires such united action! 
Legend
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over 14 years
even the 5% that are anti-mandate/anti-vax can't agree why they are there or what they dont like, according to the outdoor party/voices for freedom they are there to protest the 300 deaths caused by the vaccine............
they seem to think the government and mainstream media area hiding these numbers from us. Despite the horror being reported when one guy died from myocarditis after his second vaccination.
Marquee
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about 15 years
That's the sad thing about it. I think the protestors, as far as mandates are concerned, have a point. I've been behind the govt all the way but then again I have not been affected as much as many others so it's been easier for me. I think it's good to ask the question: what is the long term plan? What happens if (really, when) this virus becomes endemic? Will yearly vaccinations be required annually? Wil those be mandated? I think these are fair questions that need to be addressed the the public's best interest at heart.

This being said, the protesters shot themselves in the foot by not policing their own ranks and allowing a bunch of nutters and conspiracy theorists to hijack their demonstration. When you see (like I have) Trump signs, Swasikas, Anzac flags (hellooo, soldiers had to be vaccinated before going to the front in WW1), Q-Anon flags, you realise how out of touch some of these people are with realty. It would be sad if many of them weren't using the same rethoric that is heard among far right groups in the USA (arrest, trial and execute politicians or the media for example). 
I have a real strong interest in conspiracy theories (from an academic standpoint) and I honestly worry about how easily manipulated and brain washed someone of these people appear to be. They truly believe they are fighting for the greater good, against the 'deep state' and powers that be, for their children (save the children is another well known tactic used in these instances, anyone remember Pizza-Gate??)... 
Legend
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this is the thing, govt has said when mandates and passes are unnecessary they will go - when is that? who the fudge knows? and demanding timelines is daft, noone knows how this virus is going to change and mutate and what effect that will have long term. We all hop[e it becomes like the seasonal flu, where you can get a vaccine if you want. But at the moment, its more infectious, more deadly and has a new variant that is spreading fast. To deny any of that is just blind. 

I have no issue with protest, even against mandates, but when the messaging is hijacked by extremists then you lose all credibility. 

The longer they hang around, the less support from the 95% of us that have followed the rules/guidelines/mandates are going to be prepared to give them. The sooner they realise that the better.
One in a million
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about 15 years
We all saw what happened in the US, when Trump would not accept the truth and his followers blindly believed and followed and attacked the White House in the end. Unfortunately this is how I see these protestors. They do not believe any mainstream media and therefore are being manipulated by other sources of "truth".
Marquee
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over 11 years
Presumably it becomes like the flu where we get cocktails of multiple vaccines annually to fight multiple variants. The vaccines we have right now were designed to only fight the first variant, so it's no wonder they're struggling for efficacy when we usually get 5 vaccines per shot of influenza vaccine. We're getting an omicron specific booster sometime soon.

There's also promising trials for pan-coronavirus vaccines that will vaccinate or even immunize against all varieties of coronavirus (including SARS, MERS, and even the half the common colds out there). They're in phase 1, so presuming that's successful we might get a vaccine to kill off all coronaviruses later this year.
Legend
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yeah every year there is a new flu vaccine for whatever variant appears. we need, and as you say the work is being done on this, a vaccine for all viruses. I suspect that is a fair way off though.
LG
Legend
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almost 15 years
theprof
even the 5% that are anti-mandate/anti-vax can't agree why they are there or what they dont like, according to the outdoor party/voices for freedom they are there to protest the 300 deaths caused by the vaccine............
they seem to think the government and mainstream media area hiding these numbers from us. Despite the horror being reported when one guy died from myocarditis after his second vaccination.

Sadly, just over two weeks ago, I attended a funeral of a lady whom also died from Myocarditis. It is very rare and you can get it without an injection. She had had her Booster 2 weeks prior. There is debate about whether or not the Pfeizer was a contributing factor or not. They are still investigating that. She was 61. RIP Denise.
Marquee
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over 11 years
theprof
yeah every year there is a new flu vaccine for whatever variant appears. we need, and as you say the work is being done on this, a vaccine for all viruses. I suspect that is a fair way off though.
It's a vaccine for all coronaviruses, not for all viruses. It might be far off or impossible, the US army is taking it seriously, they've been injecting soldiers with it as part of their own trials.

Phase 1 was apparently successful and phase 2 will commence soon - that's when we'll get proper data on how good it is. But, the mRNA technology is pretty amazing, Moderna is confident they can vaccinate HIV and BioNTech is working on a cancer vaccine, so what was a pipe dream before might not be too far fetched.
Marquee
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over 11 years
Lonegunmen
theprof
even the 5% that are anti-mandate/anti-vax can't agree why they are there or what they dont like, according to the outdoor party/voices for freedom they are there to protest the 300 deaths caused by the vaccine............
they seem to think the government and mainstream media area hiding these numbers from us. Despite the horror being reported when one guy died from myocarditis after his second vaccination.

Sadly, just over two weeks ago, I attended a funeral of a lady whom also died from Myocarditis. It is very rare and you can get it without an injection. She had had her Booster 2 weeks prior. There is debate about whether or not the Pfeizer was a contributing factor or not. They are still investigating that. She was 61. RIP Denise.
Sorry to hear that.
Starting XI
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over 12 years
i think there are some real idiots involved in the protest but feel they are probably in the minority.  I know several people there (1 is crazy conspiracy theory guy) but the others are normal and are just anti the mandate.

A lot of people talk about the 95% vaccinated and good for them, a lot of the people involved in the protest are actually vaccinated themselves.  A lot looked at the risk and benefits and made the choice that suited them.  They do however want it to be a choice they make and not something forced upon them.

it sucks that people hijack protests, it seems to happy a lot just as there were bad apples with the BLM protests as well.  
Lawyerish
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over 11 years
martinb
Have to be honest anti-vax is very fringe by NZ standards. 

95% of people are vaccinated. I can’t think of something that 95% agree on. Not the ABs, not sunscreen, not tea or coffee, not the Queen, not Billy T James, not even driving on the left side of the road- though that’s perhaps the closest…

If you are anti-vaccine or anti-mandate in New Zealand, which to me seem to really amount to the same thing, you aren’t listening to every elected MP, to the Ministry of Health, doctors, newspapers, TV or radio, to your friends, colleagues or family, celebrities and esteemed community members and even some cartoon characters. 

That’s a lot of people to say thanks, but no thanks to. I can understand perhaps people who have had terrible experiences with the crown- which there are too many of. 

But 95% vaccinated- I hope I never need see anything again in my life so bad that it requires such united action! 
Best summary of these guys I have seen. It probably is less then 5 per cent. At least 1 per cent of our population (and probably considerably higher) just don’t engage in anything that isn’t on their radar but doesn’t necessarily make them have firm views on vaccinations 
Legend
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over 14 years
Sorry to hear that LG. That freakn sucks. 
Legend
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over 14 years
detoxin
i think there are some real idiots involved in the protest but feel they are probably in the minority.  I know several people there (1 is crazy conspiracy theory guy) but the others are normal and are just anti the mandate.

A lot of people talk about the 95% vaccinated and good for them, a lot of the people involved in the protest are actually vaccinated themselves.  A lot looked at the risk and benefits and made the choice that suited them.  They do however want it to be a choice they make and not something forced upon them.

it sucks that people hijack protests, it seems to happy a lot just as there were bad apples with the BLM protests as well.  

Hey man!
There is the opposite right as well, which we have heard too little about- that of people to have a safe environment to work or study in. You have to go to work or school. No right to choose there.

I read recently in maybe the Japan Times they were talking about 2 year olds wearing masks which seems tricky. That’s the flip side I guess. Different countries draw the line in different places for sure. It’s different in different places. 

On the other hand I know a lot of places that have closed down and cleaned and then a few days later every continues.
LG
Legend
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almost 15 years
One of the protesters was saying that you can get Cancer from wearing a face mask - WTF is that all about. Gives him/them no credibility, nor the muppet tonight calling for the Military to do a coupe and take control. Absolute fruitloops.
Marquee
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over 11 years
Lonegunmen
One of the protesters was saying that you can get Cancer from wearing a face mask - WTF is that all about. Gives him/them no credibility, nor the muppet tonight calling for the Military to do a coupe and take control. Absolute fruitloops.
The military part is particularly crazy considering the military were one of the first orgainsations to enforce a vaccine mandate, and they went hard on it. They also run MIQ. It's pretty clear the military are pro vaccine, and pro enforcing rules which limits the viruses chance to replicate.

As far as knowing people there, I know one person there and I saw her interviewed where she said that New Zealand is secretly a dictatorship and that the police need to arrest Jacinda. I'm sure she's on the more extreme end, but there's a scary amount on that end with her.
Legend
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over 14 years
*sigh* I'm sure the protest "leadership" would claim the media are purposely speaking to the nutters and that they don't represent everyone there. But given the number if hours I've spent watching them from our offices I'm pretty sure most are in some way or other on the extreme (outer). None of them represent the rest of us. Mainly cos we've followed the mandates and adapted our lives accordingly when they have refused to.

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