COVID comparing

martinb

detoxin

i think there are some real idiots involved in the protest but feel they are probably in the minority.  I know several people there (1 is crazy conspiracy theory guy) but the others are normal and are just anti the mandate.

A lot of people talk about the 95% vaccinated and good for them, a lot of the people involved in the protest are actually vaccinated themselves.  A lot looked at the risk and benefits and made the choice that suited them.  They do however want it to be a choice they make and not something forced upon them.

it sucks that people hijack protests, it seems to happy a lot just as there were bad apples with the BLM protests as well.  

Hey man!
There is the opposite right as well, which we have heard too little about- that of people to have a safe environment to work or study in. You have to go to work or school. No right to choose there.

I read recently in maybe the Japan Times they were talking about 2 year olds wearing masks which seems tricky. That’s the flip side I guess. Different countries draw the line in different places for sure. It’s different in different places. 

On the other hand I know a lot of places that have closed down and cleaned and then a few days later every continues.

That is a good point and know it a strong feeling of people in NZ.  Sadly with recent strains the vaccine seems to do little to stop people catching it.  Does protect a lot against bad symptoms which is good.  

I hate masks, i have worn them for 2+ years now as it is my duty to protect the kids at my school the best i can. ( they have actually left indents in my ears but that not putting my health at risk so i sucked it up.   They did actually change the 2 year old thing stating it hard to enforce 2 year olds to wear masks and it can infact be counter productive, (we all know how clean 2 year olds can be)  but recommended where possible. 

I have also been double vaccinated, somewhat reluctantly though.  I got the first vaccine almost as early as i could even though i had already caught covid and believed i was largely protected (on my doctors word).  However the day after getting the first vaccine i ended up being rushed to hospital as i couldn't breathe.  was likely heart related as my heart rate was crazy when i got to the hospital.   I felt forced to take the risk of having bad side affects to the 2nd vaccine because of mandates and MIQ situation in NZ.  I could get a exception but with family in NZ (some of you might remember my dad had a bad accident 2 years ago ) I know that if something happens to family member in nz if i am exempted i am still unvaccinated and will be treated as such.  the chances of being able to see my family in a hurry are greatly reduced.

With recent research from the CDC and in Israel it also seems that infection with covid does seem to protect you against catching it more than the vaccine.  obviously getting the vaccine after covid infection protects you more. However having Covid counts for nothing.  This does not make sense to me.   

I feel the mandates could use some working on  which will make them better and solve some of the problems the mandates create.


Edit:  I didn't have that bad reaction to 2nd vaccine. just the usual fever and feeling like shark for a couple days
I am also not suggesting that everyone goes out and catches covid

Immunity wanes from natural covid as well as from the vaccine though. A co-worker in the states son has caught covid at least twice and they think maybe three times (the RAT was inconclusive and they couldn't find another).

As far as the protestors being fringe, if they really were just going for anti-mandate but still supported voluntary vaccination and a healthcare response then surely they'd be wearing masks?

Ryan

Immunity wanes from natural covid as well as from the vaccine though. A co-worker in the states son has caught covid at least twice and they think maybe three times (the RAT was inconclusive and they couldn't find another).

As far as the protestors being fringe, if they really were just going for anti-mandate but still supported voluntary vaccination and a healthcare response then surely they'd be wearing masks?

Yes it does.  My friend is double vaxxed and has just caught covid for the 2nd time.  (worse symptoms this time but hard to have less symptoms than the 0 he had first time)   

I am in Japan so people close probably have more idea about whats on the ground. just talking from my experience with people i know who are there or who don't agree with the mandate.

getting covid sounds horrid - vaxxed or not, the worst thing I can imagine is getting delta and omicron at the same time.

Ryan

Presumably it becomes like the flu where we get cocktails of multiple vaccines annually to fight multiple variants. The vaccines we have right now were designed to only fight the first variant, so it's no wonder they're struggling for efficacy when we usually get 5 vaccines per shot of influenza vaccine. We're getting an omicron specific booster sometime soon.

There's also promising trials for pan-coronavirus vaccines that will vaccinate or even immunize against all varieties of coronavirus (including SARS, MERS, and even the half the common colds out there). They're in phase 1, so presuming that's successful we might get a vaccine to kill off all coronaviruses later this year.

Lets fudgeing hope so. Can't do much more of this shark if im being honest.

martinb

Have to be honest anti-vax is very fringe by NZ standards. 

95% of people are vaccinated. I can’t think of something that 95% agree on. Not the ABs, not sunscreen, not tea or coffee, not the Queen, not Billy T James, not even driving on the left side of the road- though that’s perhaps the closest…

If you are anti-vaccine or anti-mandate in New Zealand, which to me seem to really amount to the same thing, you aren’t listening to every elected MP, to the Ministry of Health, doctors, newspapers, TV or radio, to your friends, colleagues or family, celebrities and esteemed community members and even some cartoon characters. 

That’s a lot of people to say thanks, but no thanks to. I can understand perhaps people who have had terrible experiences with the crown- which there are too many of. 

But 95% vaccinated- I hope I never need see anything again in my life so bad that it requires such united action! 

posted in error

Dear Fenix and friends,

if you must.

And man I really wanna hear what Ballane has to say.

I'll start it - the protests did not end the mandates, the government did as planned
                - vaccines saved lives
                - YF should not be supporting anyone business or person linked with the far right, anti establishment types that were at the protests, including our fave pub.
            - I personally feel sorry for the genuine protesters who were there peacefully and left after a few days when the "other" groups arrived. the smart ones left, those that stayed and continue to claim they were peaceful deserve to be tarred with the same brush and should be expecting to be arrested.

A true freedom fighter this lady. Hopefully she's dyed it yellow & blue in recent weeks.

I am sure that the protests did influence the government on mandates as did  the poor polls.
YF should stay right out of politics

theprof

I'll start it - the protests did not end the mandates, the government did as planned
                - vaccines saved lives
                - YF should not be supporting anyone business or person linked with the far right, anti establishment types that were at the protests, including our fave pub.
            - I personally feel sorry for the genuine protesters who were there peacefully and left after a few days when the "other" groups arrived. the smart ones left, those that stayed and continue to claim they were peaceful deserve to be tarred with the same brush and should be expecting to be arrested.

Leggy

I am sure that the protests did influence the government on mandates as did  the poor polls.
YF should stay right out of politics

theprof

I'll start it - the protests did not end the mandates, the government did as planned
                - vaccines saved lives
                - YF should not be supporting anyone business or person linked with the far right, anti establishment types that were at the protests, including our fave pub.
            - I personally feel sorry for the genuine protesters who were there peacefully and left after a few days when the "other" groups arrived. the smart ones left, those that stayed and continue to claim they were peaceful deserve to be tarred with the same brush and should be expecting to be arrested.

cynical but ok.
the plan has always been there, if the protests and polling results had an effect you'd think the changes would have occurred immediately instead of a couple of weeks after.
Unfortunately you can't stay away from politics, especially with COVID. If you/we are are seen to be supporting a business or person who was happy to be supporting the loud minority at the protest then we all get linked to the ideas that were there. Not for me thanks.l

theprof

Leggy

I am sure that the protests did influence the government on mandates as did  the poor polls.
YF should stay right out of politics

theprof

I'll start it - the protests did not end the mandates, the government did as planned
                - vaccines saved lives
                - YF should not be supporting anyone business or person linked with the far right, anti establishment types that were at the protests, including our fave pub.
            - I personally feel sorry for the genuine protesters who were there peacefully and left after a few days when the "other" groups arrived. the smart ones left, those that stayed and continue to claim they were peaceful deserve to be tarred with the same brush and should be expecting to be arrested.

cynical but ok.
the plan has always been there, if the protests and polling results had an effect you'd think the changes would have occurred immediately instead of a couple of weeks after.
Unfortunately you can't stay away from politics, especially with COVID. If you/we are are seen to be supporting a business or person who was happy to be supporting the loud minority at the protest then we all get linked to the ideas that were there. Not for me thanks.l

It is governments that have made Covid political  and divisive

theprof

Leggy

I am sure that the protests did influence the government on mandates as did  the poor polls.
YF should stay right out of politics

theprof

I'll start it - the protests did not end the mandates, the government did as planned
                - vaccines saved lives
                - YF should not be supporting anyone business or person linked with the far right, anti establishment types that were at the protests, including our fave pub.
            - I personally feel sorry for the genuine protesters who were there peacefully and left after a few days when the "other" groups arrived. the smart ones left, those that stayed and continue to claim they were peaceful deserve to be tarred with the same brush and should be expecting to be arrested.

cynical but ok.
the plan has always been there, if the protests and polling results had an effect you'd think the changes would have occurred immediately instead of a couple of weeks after.
Unfortunately you can't stay away from politics, especially with COVID. If you/we are are seen to be supporting a business or person who was happy to be supporting the loud minority at the protest then we all get linked to the ideas that were there. Not for me thanks.l

no, at the start of the occupation and before the polls the government said that mandates would be removed quicker than most people are anticipating and that it will have nothing to do with the occupation. And they were right.

Another way to read the polls is that the governments popularityhhas dropped as they loosened restrictions. Lockdowns were popular.

Ryan

theprof

Leggy

I am sure that the protests did influence the government on mandates as did  the poor polls.
YF should stay right out of politics

theprof

I'll start it - the protests did not end the mandates, the government did as planned
                - vaccines saved lives
                - YF should not be supporting anyone business or person linked with the far right, anti establishment types that were at the protests, including our fave pub.
            - I personally feel sorry for the genuine protesters who were there peacefully and left after a few days when the "other" groups arrived. the smart ones left, those that stayed and continue to claim they were peaceful deserve to be tarred with the same brush and should be expecting to be arrested.

cynical but ok.
the plan has always been there, if the protests and polling results had an effect you'd think the changes would have occurred immediately instead of a couple of weeks after.
Unfortunately you can't stay away from politics, especially with COVID. If you/we are are seen to be supporting a business or person who was happy to be supporting the loud minority at the protest then we all get linked to the ideas that were there. Not for me thanks.l

no, at the start of the occupation and before the polls the government said that mandates would be removed quicker than most people are anticipating and that it will have nothing to do with the occupation. And they were right.

Another way to read the polls is that the governments popularityhhas dropped as they loosened restrictions. Lockdowns were popular.

I guess if you are on the dole and an IQ of about 80 then lockdown might be popular

Leggy

Ryan

theprof

Leggy

I am sure that the protests did influence the government on mandates as did  the poor polls.
YF should stay right out of politics

theprof

I'll start it - the protests did not end the mandates, the government did as planned
                - vaccines saved lives
                - YF should not be supporting anyone business or person linked with the far right, anti establishment types that were at the protests, including our fave pub.
            - I personally feel sorry for the genuine protesters who were there peacefully and left after a few days when the "other" groups arrived. the smart ones left, those that stayed and continue to claim they were peaceful deserve to be tarred with the same brush and should be expecting to be arrested.

cynical but ok.
the plan has always been there, if the protests and polling results had an effect you'd think the changes would have occurred immediately instead of a couple of weeks after.
Unfortunately you can't stay away from politics, especially with COVID. If you/we are are seen to be supporting a business or person who was happy to be supporting the loud minority at the protest then we all get linked to the ideas that were there. Not for me thanks.l

no, at the start of the occupation and before the polls the government said that mandates would be removed quicker than most people are anticipating and that it will have nothing to do with the occupation. And they were right.

Another way to read the polls is that the governments popularityhhas dropped as they loosened restrictions. Lockdowns were popular.

I guess if you are on the dole and an IQ of about 80 then lockdown might be popular

Well it was. Among people who appreciated low death rates.

Heroic idea about the poll drop, but a lot of people died in other countries and almost nobody did in New Zealand.

More likely the poll drop is related to people experiencing Covid and while the government could do something about Delta and other waves, omicron is much less controllable, so other factors influence voting such as leadership changes, fatigue, negative news coverage, the appearance of weakness and so on. 

And ignoring the very public stance of a bar owner is not keeping politics out, it’s making a political decision. Status quo politics is still politics. 

I note "Rent-A- Protester" attracted 50 yesterday at the War Memorial. The voices of New Zealanders in general? I think not. Those mandates were always going to be under review depending on how this Covid was spreading. I don't think "Rent-a-Mob" achieved anything other than pissing locals off that wanted to get to work or home. There were a few genuine people there (The first day)  before it got hijacked by every cause in the country. It was good to see a few of the regular faces stirring it up and a few others whom are anti rules of of society anyway. I did laugh when they abuse politicians for not being allowed to stay in Parliament grounds, yet in China & Russia, these same protesters would not have lasted a day before being dealt with in a manner to which they would have been dealt. At least here in New Zealand, you actually were allowed to make your voice heard for a number of weeks. 

Leggy

Ryan

theprof

Leggy

I am sure that the protests did influence the government on mandates as did  the poor polls.
YF should stay right out of politics

theprof

I'll start it - the protests did not end the mandates, the government did as planned
                - vaccines saved lives
                - YF should not be supporting anyone business or person linked with the far right, anti establishment types that were at the protests, including our fave pub.
            - I personally feel sorry for the genuine protesters who were there peacefully and left after a few days when the "other" groups arrived. the smart ones left, those that stayed and continue to claim they were peaceful deserve to be tarred with the same brush and should be expecting to be arrested.

cynical but ok.
the plan has always been there, if the protests and polling results had an effect you'd think the changes would have occurred immediately instead of a couple of weeks after.
Unfortunately you can't stay away from politics, especially with COVID. If you/we are are seen to be supporting a business or person who was happy to be supporting the loud minority at the protest then we all get linked to the ideas that were there. Not for me thanks.l

no, at the start of the occupation and before the polls the government said that mandates would be removed quicker than most people are anticipating and that it will have nothing to do with the occupation. And they were right.

Another way to read the polls is that the governments popularityhhas dropped as they loosened restrictions. Lockdowns were popular.

I guess if you are on the dole and an IQ of about 80 then lockdown might be popular

All the polling shows you're incorrect.

Only idiots would rather be in lockdown

martinb

Dear Fenix and friends,

if you must.

And man I really wanna hear what Ballane has to say.

About what

Leggy

Only idiots would rather be in lockdown

TBH I enjoyed the lockdown periods, had everything I needed/wanted at home, could work effectively and had no need to go into town. I liked the isolation and I dont consider myself to be an idiot. I think by in large people have reacted badly to being told they can't do things they wanted to.

Oh i get it but think i may mostly disappoint martinb, dont think anything i say will be overly controversial  and is a pretty common theme among those i speak to.
Firstly sorry Leggy dont agree lockdowns are what saved this country especially in the early days before vaccines became available.
Sometimes think the problem in NZ is that because we have been successful compared to some countries in not having horrific death and hospitalisation rates people think the measures taken were unnecessary.
As for the so called protest yes people have the right to protest have done so myself. What they dont have is the right to impose their actions on innocent people. People calling for freedom in NZ have no idea what it means to truly have your freedom taken from you. Wonder if all those calling for freedom contacted Work and Income and asked to have the support the government was paying them stopped.
Had some empathy for them early on but that very quickly disappeared when i saw the Nazi symbol on a statue and the desecration of   the Cenotaph. That clearly showed there were other things at play. Then when a friends daughter was spat   on as she made her way to school any empathy was gone.
The whole issue has sadly become very divisive and the lies being told from both sides are frankly disgraceful. Staggers me how stupid some people are when it comes to some of stuff being posted. When i see people trying to say life in NZ is becoming like that of Nazi Germany just makes me shake my head and worry just where we are headed.  
Hopefully as a country we can move forward from this but i fear as long as we have people who seem more intent on protest than respecting the Majorities rights we have some way to go.

Yes it is called freedom of choice. You could only travel where the gov said you could. This from someone that purports to travelling to Qld 3 x a year.
Perhaps we should ban driving as more people died on the road than died from covid in NZ

theprof

Leggy

Only idiots would rather be in lockdown

TBH I enjoyed the lockdown periods, had everything I needed/wanted at home, could work effectively and had no need to go into town. I liked the isolation and I dont consider myself to be an idiot. I think by in large people have reacted badly to being told they can't do things they wanted to.

The bottom line leggy is in life there is always a minority who are idiots and have to be told what to do.

I am still undecided after the last post you made about driving if you are one, but for the meantime will give you the benefit of the doubt.

Plus we actually have rules around drink driving, speed and some other things about driving. We even have a couple of tests before we give people the freedom of driving. They all help in reducing the toll. Still some idiots still don’t follow them.

Think you will find once more it is the idiots who are over represented in that toll. The idiots who don’t follow rules which have largely been made for them.

Plus if you are going to quote stats, look at America. A bigger population but over 1000,000 have died from covid over the last two years. I’ll let you check their road toll.

Come back on here once you have 

I expected something like that from you.
The real point is that it appears to be one rule for Kiwis and another one for sports teams, DJ's and other entitled people that the ' government' think is OK.
They keep changing the goal posts. No real plan, just play it by ear.
Like wearing masks into a restaurant and then being able to remove it once seated. Of course you can't catch Covid sitting down? The absolute B/S from governments is now being seen for what it is and a hell of a lot of people are over it.
Before anyone mentions anti vax---- I have had my 3 jabs and I chose that. There is little more I can do now and all mandates should be scrapped. If not, then does the vax not work, because I know that you can pass it on and catch the virus--- so what is the point.
All the billions spent so far--- how much on hospitals etc? F/all
All the people that are still frightened should stay at home and let the rest of us get on with our lives

AucklandPhoenix

The bottom line leggy is in life there is always a minority who are idiots and have to be told what to do.

I am still undecided after the last post you made about driving if you are one, but for the meantime will give you the benefit of the doubt.

Plus we actually have rules around drink driving, speed and some other things about driving. We even have a couple of tests before we give people the freedom of driving. They all help in reducing the toll. Still some idiots still don’t follow them.

Think you will find once more it is the idiots who are over represented in that toll. The idiots who don’t follow rules which have largely been made for them.

Plus if you are going to quote stats, look at America. A bigger population but over 1000,000 have died from covid over the last two years. I’ll let you check their road toll.

Come back on here once you have 

Sure leggy, everyone is over covid. But I agree people need to get over it but at the same time stop bitching and moaning like you are

I won’t answer the restaurant query because clearly you can’t eat with a mask on but I think you knew that before you typed it.

It’s all about minimising risk as much as you can. So if you have to put a mask on to have a wizz, is it a big deal if you going there helped keep the restaurant alive?

As for the sports teams, I admit I love cricket so yes some normality of watching that made the last two years more tolerable 

And many of those so called entitled people kept our health system and economy going

But how did the road toll in America work for you?

If you are going to use stats then back them up or heaven forbid say yes that was a dumb thing to say

The point about the early lockdowns is they were effective and were lifted quickly. While the borders remained shut, life in NZ was fairly unrestricted at first and almost uniquely so. The virus was at first eliminated. 

So the popularity of the lockdowns was that they worked and allowed more time with more freedoms and fewer restrictions than elsewhere.  

It wasn’t that lockdowns were popular for themselves- it was that they were much better for everyone, especially business, than piecemeal restrictions which just resulted in continued virus spread and deaths. 

And I think almost all restrictions are off now? Which recognizes the difference of omicron and a highly vaccinated population. 
No mandatory vaccine passes from tomorrow. 

Leggy

Only idiots would rather be in lockdown

only idiots call people with different opinions than them idiots :)

martinb

The point about the early lockdowns is they were effective and were lifted quickly. While the borders remained shut, life in NZ was fairly unrestricted at first and almost uniquely so. The virus was at first eliminated. 

So the popularity of the lockdowns was that they worked and allowed more time with more freedoms and fewer restrictions than elsewhere.  

It wasn’t that lockdowns were popular for themselves- it was that they were much better for everyone, especially business, than piecemeal restrictions which just resulted in continued virus spread and deaths. 

Lockdowns cost 27000 business to close. How is that good. Another sheepie 
The virus was never eliminated

Can we change the name of this thread to Monkey Pox 2023 /s

Can't make this stuff up. I honestly think we're doomed as a species. I reckon another 2000 years tops and we'll either be wiped off the surface of the earth or things will look very different to the way we're living now

Monkeypox isn't nearly as contagious as covid and already has a vaccine, it's just not widely circulated as monkeypox was only really in the African continent for decades.

Leggy

martinb

The point about the early lockdowns is they were effective and were lifted quickly. While the borders remained shut, life in NZ was fairly unrestricted at first and almost uniquely so. The virus was at first eliminated. 

So the popularity of the lockdowns was that they worked and allowed more time with more freedoms and fewer restrictions than elsewhere.  

It wasn’t that lockdowns were popular for themselves- it was that they were much better for everyone, especially business, than piecemeal restrictions which just resulted in continued virus spread and deaths. 

Lockdowns cost 27000 business to close. How is that good. Another sheepie 
The virus was never eliminated

You need to do better than that. Plus I’m not a sheepie- never been iconic or the backbone of the NZ economy or identity…
I can immediately think of 3 points (beyond source, wtf are these numbers? More Murdoch BS? because there was a lot of simple lying in the pandemic.)

a) Are we talking business failure above the natural rate of attrition? 50% of hospitality businesses fail in the first two years I believe, under pre-COVID norms.

b) Are we talking about businesses closing directly attributable to lockdown or to the effect of the pandemic? Demand overseas where lighter restrictions were in place saw huge drop offs also and businesses failed.

c) The initial virus was eliminated for significant periods, including summer holidays which saw a big boost in economic activity. 

As well while it was possible to control the virus when it had lower transmissibility, people were keen to control it and save lives and health costs. Long Covid is effecting a small, but not unimportant percentage of people, and the virus is killing too many people daily. These all have negative effects on people’s lives and by extension the economy. 

Though now I think cynically about it I wonder if it just has an uptick in the death and health industries, and a downturn in tourism etc. so it all balances out…

The thing I’ve been wondering recently is that because of how little nz has been effected so far, is that increasing the number of people getting Covid now?

The current numbers in nz are higher than Tokyo which has a lot larger population and much larger population density.   

detoxin

The thing I’ve been wondering recently is that because of how little nz has been effected so far, is that increasing the number of people getting Covid now?

The current numbers in nz are higher than Tokyo which has a lot larger population and much larger population density.   

Hard to say- have to dig up the reports on natural immunity. It’ll certainly have helped some imo. But how much isn’t clear I think. 

Any festivals going down in Osaka? We’ve had a few food trucks out, but man if they don’t have the summer festivals this year… I don’t think I can handle 3 years with no festivals…

On the other hand those are perfect super spreader events, no way to social distance there.

detoxin

The thing I’ve been wondering recently is that because of how little nz has been effected so far, is that increasing the number of people getting Covid now?

The current numbers in nz are higher than Tokyo which has a lot larger population and much larger population density.   

i know plenty of people overseas that have had COVID multiple times and never went into the official figures. It's probably that we're just reporting it more.

Leggy

Yes it is called freedom of choice. You could only travel where the gov said you could. This from someone that purports to travelling to Qld 3 x a year.
Perhaps we should ban driving as more people died on the road than died from covid in NZ

theprof

Leggy

Only idiots would rather be in lockdown

TBH I enjoyed the lockdown periods, had everything I needed/wanted at home, could work effectively and had no need to go into town. I liked the isolation and I dont consider myself to be an idiot. I think by in large people have reacted badly to being told they can't do things they wanted to.

The "Queenslander 3x a year" in my profile is all about State of Origin, not about travelling there, but dont let you're assumption of my idiocy affect you're "government is out to screw my life" theory.