The Auckland Stadium Question

Warriors would be crazy to move. They've built a crowd and an atmosphere that money can't buy.

Blues probably eyeing up a move to Kiwitea given the declining state of union. 😂😂😂

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/350274068/tataki-auckland-unlimited-commissioned-report-selling-north-harbour-stadium

I've cooked up a table of the biggest dedicated stadiums in Australia and NZ by city.

Australasian_Stadia.PNG 28.2 KB

Disclaimer: some of my numbers will likely be a bit inconsistent/inaccurate. Correct me if I've messed up too much. The point also in which a ground is insignificant enough to earn an 'n/a' enters into a grey area and perhaps some of you might think I've done Colin Maiden park dirty here. I acknowledge also of course that different cities have different sporting cultures and needs.

The point still stands however. Auckland is the biggest city by a margin of over 1 million that doesn't have dedicated stadiums for both rectangular and oval sport.

Now, arguing that we should do something purely in order to be more like our neighbours might not in itself be the soundest logic, but when so much pro-Eden Park argument boils down to upholding a status quo for its own sake ('National Stadium,' 'Home of the All Blacks,' etc), it's worth noting that doing so would keep Auckland's stadium strategy completely out of line with the wider region's. It all just goes to show that Eden Park is a stadium for a pre-professional era.

Good intent, but with AFL, the Oval stadiums are all Multipurpose. The big city grounds all host cricket & AFL. It's misleading to call them Dedicated Ovals - as they are definitely multipurpose.

So no different to how Eden Park operates with cricket & rugby. Except of course now no 5 day wearing of cricket whites in Mt Eden.

The MCG (too many to count), Perth Stadium (Eagles & Freemantle), Adelaide Oval (Port & Crows), SCG (Swans) & Gabba (Lions) all have AFL clubs as tenants. So the whole stadium financial model is sooo much stronger.

I didn't say they were dedicated cricket ovals, I said they were dedicated ovals - AFL inclusive. As AFL was invented to be played on the same grounds as cricket, they don't detract from eachother.

Cricket and Football codes 100% do when played at the same grounds.

Auckland needs a dedicated Oval = cricket ground. 100%.
Just like the Tron, Mt Maunganui, Basin, Hagley & University Oval.


But the Aussie comparisons are a bit pointless. Apples v oranges.
Comparable sized cities Perth, Adelaide & Brissy all have the massive financial advantage of multipurpose ovals with 12 month use, cricket & AFL. The rich BBL with big crowds. The AFL with tonnes of cash. The Adelaide Oval was 'modernised' from a  picturesque cricket ground into a concrete beast for the AFL. Bye bye grassy banks

Then Perth & Adelaide get enough ALM & Super Rugby (Perth) tenants to make their small rectangular grounds viable. Whilst Suncorp in Brissy has 3-4, year round tenants in the Broncos, Redcliffe Dolphins, QLD Reds & Roar.

Oh and don't forget whenever big football (soccer) or rugby (both codes) games come to Adelaide or Perth, they take them to their big Oval stadiums. There you are even further from the action than Eden Park. Ditto the huge MCG.
 

I'm not staking any claims on how big these stadiums should be. Merely that all major cities in Aussie and NZ should and clearly can have a dedicated oval and rectangle stadium of some size - proportioned to their needs obviously. This is the base level of quality that we owe spectators.

It's an unfair comparison to point out big football games at the Docklands and such. The sacrifice is not on the part of the stadiums - they stadiums are still fully purposed for those week-in week-out events. It is the quality of those big rare events instead that is sacrificed, and rightly so.

It would be like if the MCG slowly moved the stands in to provide a better experiences for those attending EPL pre-season friendlies. That's what's happened with Eden Park over the years. 

It is of course now not for cricket that Eden Park maintains its wonky shape - that would be concerts. It now plans to get bigger. Some national stadium.

Don’t agree. Auckland doesn’t need a seperate oval stadium a la Australia, we dont have AFL and so much cricket that a dedicated state of the art oval is needed. Actually, your thinking is what has us in this position today….. football codes having to play in stadia designed to host cricket as well. Forget about cricket, they already have sufficient venues for their current and probably future needs

Footy_Fella

I'm not staking any claims on how big these stadiums should be. Merely that all major cities in Aussie and NZ should and clearly can have a dedicated oval and rectangle stadium of some size - proportioned to their needs obviously. This is the base level of quality that we owe spectators.

It's an unfair comparison to point out big football games at the Docklands and such. The sacrifice is not on the part of the stadiums - they stadiums are still fully purposed for those week-in week-out events. It is the quality of those big rare events instead that is sacrificed, and rightly so.

It would be like if the MCG slowly moved the stands in to provide a better experiences for those attending EPL pre-season friendlies. That's what's happened with Eden Park over the years. 

It is of course now not for cricket that Eden Park maintains its wonky shape - that would be concerts. It now plans to get bigger. Some national stadium.

Right. So Hamilton, Dunedin, and Christchurch can crack it but Auckland can't. And when have I implied football should be played in cricket ovals?

My preference for a new AKL cricket ground:

1) redeveloped Victoria Park (pipe dream)
2) Western Springs
3) Colin Maiden (probably what will happen)

My preference (also a pipe dream) is Auckland Domain.

As a backdrop you'd have the beautiful museum building in one direction, and the Sky Tower in another direction. Maybe even a glimpse over to Rangitoto from a highest grandstand. Walking distance from the CBD. Used to walk around the Domain when living nearby and always thought it would make a great test match venue.

But yeah it's also a great public asset to the city, so would a shark load of local opposition, not happy about losing it's general public status. And I've never seen it publicly talked about as an option, so yeah pipe dream.


And yes Auckland needs a specific cricket ground. Silly that NZ's biggest city doesn't host test matches. Just think comparisons to how the Aussie cities operate (all with one or more AFL teams) are a bit pointless.

No no no to Colin Maiden,
. Would even prefer North Harbour stadium converted then that option.

Actually would go hand in hand with the so called small stadium of 8-10k, the powers that be seem to want.

It is a cluster fudge that the biggest city in the country can’t host a test match 

Doloras

My preference for a new AKL cricket ground:

1) redeveloped Victoria Park (pipe dream)
2) Western Springs
3) Colin Maiden (probably what will happen)

Do we, as a nation, need a round stadium in Auckland when there are enough decent grounds around the country. No.

England, Australia and India all spread their cricket around the country. Us kiwis don't even bother turning up for most red ball cricket so why waste valueable resources on what will be massively underused facilities. 

Hamilton (Upper NZ), Wellington (central NZ) and Christchurch (Lower NZ) should have the red ball.

Auckland, Tauranga, Napier and Dunners are perfect for white ball.

So then Auckland pays by having to watch rugby/football at Eden Park whilte most of the rest of the country gets dedicated stadiums?

Why is a 15,000-20,000 venue for limited over and test cricket not possible as in the UK? And can we really say it's simply because we're poor when Eden Park, Mt Smart, and NHS have all been propped up these past 30 years?

Of course this isn't something we can have right now, but to redevelop Eden Park would put the nail in the coffin for the next 30 years. A bit of long term thinking wouldn't hurt - as we didn't have back in 2006 or whenever when we got ourselves into this mess.

And to clarify, my comparison with aussie isn't to suggest Auckland needs a 40,000 oval - simply that to have dedicated venues for oval and rectangular sport, sized to the city's needs, is the base level of what paying spectators deserve in this part of the world, and that the rest of the wider region - in AFL states, NRL states, and in NZ - largely seems to achieve this. If you look at my list AKL absolutely sticks out like a sore thumb.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/5xcaG4O0FaXn7XZAvZXJ4j?si=HpsrpK8BS7ubpid6v3hyQA

Seems like it is a 3 horse race and representatives of each go on Newstalk ZB to make their respective cases. Eden, Quay Park (backed by NZR and Ngati Whatua) and Wynyard Point. The representative of the latter seemed to struggle to differentiate that proposal from the Quay Park one and make it sound like the better option, they sound very similar if you only had this radio segment for reference. 

I believe that the Domain is an emergency catchment in case of severe floods. Like with the cyclone, it was a lake. So can’t see tham building on it.

coochiee

My preference (also a pipe dream) is Auckland Domain.

As a backdrop you'd have the beautiful museum building in one direction, and the Sky Tower in another direction. Maybe even a glimpse over to Rangitoto from a highest grandstand. Walking distance from the CBD. Used to walk around the Domain when living nearby and always thought it would make a great test match venue.

But yeah it's also a great public asset to the city, so would a shark load of local opposition, not happy about losing it's general public status. And I've never seen it publicly talked about as an option, so yeah pipe dream.


And yes Auckland needs a specific cricket ground. Silly that NZ's biggest city doesn't host test matches. Just think comparisons to how the Aussie cities operate (all with one or more AFL teams) are a bit pointless.

imanixsupporter

https://open.spotify.com/episode/5xcaG4O0FaXn7XZAvZXJ4j?si=HpsrpK8BS7ubpid6v3hyQA

Seems like it is a 3 horse race and representatives of each go on Newstalk ZB to make their respective cases. Eden, Quay Park (backed by NZR and Ngati Whatua) and Wynyard Point. The representative of the latter seemed to struggle to differentiate that proposal from the Quay Park one and make it sound like the better option, they sound very similar if you only had this radio segment for reference. 

Can EP really claim affordability with their new proposal?

They want 3 whole new stands (inspite of Sautner's claim here to be 'repurposing' them), and a roof - one which would surely put it among the biggest stadium roofs by area in the world. That's just a new stadium you've got there buddy.

They dangle the shiny new thing in front of us and then claim to be the sober, cheap option. Can't have it both ways.

Pine never asks him how it's going to be funded, and then when that Jim Doyle guy starts talking about Quay Park, he hits him with a 'who's paying for it'. Come on.

dont think that is Piney on that particular segment. But I agree that what they are proposing for Eden is ridiculous. The main benefit of keeping Eden is that it is cheaper to do so but what they're wanting to do costs a billion dollars anyway. Is also a cricket/rugby proposal that is ultimately not good for either sport. 

Footy_Fella

imanixsupporter

https://open.spotify.com/episode/5xcaG4O0FaXn7XZAvZXJ4j?si=HpsrpK8BS7ubpid6v3hyQA

Seems like it is a 3 horse race and representatives of each go on Newstalk ZB to make their respective cases. Eden, Quay Park (backed by NZR and Ngati Whatua) and Wynyard Point. The representative of the latter seemed to struggle to differentiate that proposal from the Quay Park one and make it sound like the better option, they sound very similar if you only had this radio segment for reference. 

Can EP really claim affordability with their new proposal?

They want 3 whole new stands (inspite of Sautner's claim here to be 'repurposing' them), and a roof - one which would surely put it among the biggest stadium roofs by area in the world. That's just a new stadium you've got there buddy.

They dangle the shiny new thing in front of us and then claim to be the sober, cheap option. Can't have it both ways.

Pine never asks him how it's going to be funded, and then when that Jim Doyle guy starts talking about Quay Park, he hits him with a 'who's paying for it'. Come on.

Wait, can I confirm that the Bledisloe "sunken stadium" is out of the running? Thank goodness.

As to the flood catchment thing, surely you can have that even with a stadium? Eden Park no 2 certainly served that purpose during last year's floods

The Domain hasn't been mentioned at all in the plans for an Auckland standalone cricket ground. So I can only assume it's not an option at all. Just that it's a very pretty setting, close to downtown.

Maybe it needs to be kept available for Destiny Church protests. Actually I'm like to see some little 8 yr old off spinner, irate at having his Sat morning game dispruted, ram a stump down Brian Tamaki's open mouth. I'd pay good money to see that.

I'm no hydrologic engineer, but you wouldn't be playing Test cricket anywhere during an Auckland cyclone or soon after. 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/auckland-stadiums-first-look-at-wynyard-point-proposal-ahead-of-formal-vote/3GIZRPRNMNC5FIMOI7NFLQ74JY/

This one looks fine. Still don't see the point of a stadium on the actual waterfront.

Councillor Henderson was on RNZ Checkpoint tonight talking about this, not sure why though as all he basically said was there was a feasibility study report expected soon and it sounded like whatever that said would be quite influential with regard to which direction they go in. 

Doloras

Wait, can I confirm that the Bledisloe "sunken stadium" is out of the running? Thank goodness.

As to the flood catchment thing, surely you can have that even with a stadium? Eden Park no 2 certainly served that purpose during last year's floods

After a hundred years worth of ground work! 

Eden Park’s water management is very good. 

Looks like that bored security guard had it wrong, and Quay Park’s measurements are okay

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/350293148/eden-park-and-quay-park-go-through-next-stage-become-new-zealands-national-stadium

Yusss. Quay Park makes sense. Only thing about the Wynyard proposal is that it came with rebuilding Victoria Park for test cricket, which would have ruled

" Looks like that bored security guard had it wrong, and Quay Park’s measurements are okay "

Wait, what's this about? Is this something to do with the Gregor Paul article in the Herald?

Doloras

" Looks like that bored security guard had it wrong, and Quay Park’s measurements are okay "

Wait, what's this about? Is this something to do with the Gregor Paul article in the Herald?

Someone on here went for a gander down to Quay Park, and discussed the mooted stadium with a security guard. Kicking stones between them they decided the highly paid consultants had it all wrong, and the site would be too small. 

coochiee

Doloras

" Looks like that bored security guard had it wrong, and Quay Park’s measurements are okay "

Wait, what's this about? Is this something to do with the Gregor Paul article in the Herald?

Someone on here went for a gander down to Quay Park, and discussed the mooted stadium with a security guard. Kicking stones between them they decided the highly paid consultants had it all wrong, and the site would be too small. 

No way we’d find that out until there’s waaaay more money sunk into the project! And from what someone said somewhere, like before, the fix is in for Eden Park, so it doesn’t matter…

If the fix were in for Eden Park then Eden Park would be the only option coming out of the working group. You realise that journos who are anti-Eden Park would be trying to push the "fix is in" narrative to try to discredit Eden Park. Just like that other journo (Gregor Paul) is trying to push the "bad process, everyone's playing dirty... except the Wynyard Point bid". For, you know, reasons of upstanding journalism.

Jessie Merino

I've just come back from having a wander around the proposed site. Had interesting chat with a gatekeeper for Spark Arena stage deliveries who reckoned site was nowhere near wide enough for "another Eden Pk". Not to mention adding 000's apartments. Not to mention all the rail lines. So is it proposed that trains travel to and from Britomart underground beneath the stadium? Expect warfare between AT and Council to continue ... not to mention massive disruption to train timetables YET AGAIN!

Oh, I've found the post.

Underground trains to Britomart? That surely can't be possible.

martinb

coochiee

Doloras

" Looks like that bored security guard had it wrong, and Quay Park’s measurements are okay "

Wait, what's this about? Is this something to do with the Gregor Paul article in the Herald?

Someone on here went for a gander down to Quay Park, and discussed the mooted stadium with a security guard. Kicking stones between them they decided the highly paid consultants had it all wrong, and the site would be too small. 

No way we’d find that out until there’s waaaay more money sunk into the project! And from what someone said somewhere, like before, the fix is in for Eden Park, so it doesn’t matter…

Is some serious backers of the Quay Park bid, including NZ Rugby. If the financial models stuck up, I can see it being the favourite. 

i sense there is a strong groundswell in Auckland (from afar, but I visit 1-2 times per year) that Eden Park is past it's used by date, and the site better suits the city now as housing.

The success of the transformation of the whole Viaduct area years ago, off the back of the Americas Cup, shows how a big ticket item like a downtown stadium can have great spinoffs for the whole wider area becoming a destination location. Better transport, entertainment, more tourism, increased housing projects etc. This for a city that continues to grow at a higher rate than almost all of the rest of NZ.

Wish they’d string this out a bit more- could be an interesting distraction now all the football is finished! 

With a second round of experts being brought in to review the options I can see this going for many more months, if not years.

Quay Park and Eden Park 2.1 are the two successful proposals that will go through the next stage to become Auckland’s new or upgraded stadium.

A working group led by Councillor Shane Henderson will recommend at Auckland Council’s governing body meeting on Thursday that a feasibility study should be carried out on these two options.

If councillors accept this recommendation, it’s the end of the road for the two waterfront options at Wynyard Point and Bledisloe Wharf.

“The other detail is that we were expecting a nine-month turnaround on the feasibility study, the quicker the better, but the thing is that it will be at their cost, so once again there is no ratepayers’ money going into it.”

It seems so widely acknowledged about how much of an own goal the decision to not take the government's money to build a brand new and decent stadium in time for the 2011 Rugby World Cup, that I can't believe Auckland seem to be edging closer towards screwing it up all over again (without the government money this time of course). 

https://infocouncil.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/Open/2024/05/20240523_AE_MAT_12492.PDF

As per this Eden Park's plan is to basically go full oval - 64m boundaries all sides.

It'll be a funny timeline to end up in if the two biggest stadiums in NZ are both cricket ovals.

Footy_Fella

https://infocouncil.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/Open/2024/05/20240523_AE_MAT_12492.PDF

As per this Eden Park's plan is to basically go full oval - 64m boundaries all sides.

It'll be a funny timeline to end up in if the two biggest stadiums in NZ are both cricket ovals.

Dreams are free for Eden Park. Go round, go home.

64 metres is piss-small for an international cricket boundary, isn't it?

Doloras

64 metres is piss-small for an international cricket boundary, isn't it?

For all sides of the ground, absolutely.