2016/17 Phoenix Fixtures - Saturday Night Fever

I would call it one dimensional thinking by someone that the club keeps playing the same excuses and cards.

I think you could have made a nail head post ...

I sometimes wonder and am not close enough to recommend this but think it time to time... If you gave TS [your previous owner] the marketing at the Nix would he make a difference he is a Football person to his boot straps... from afar an I could be totally wrong, but the impression is your current owners are excellent business people, understand many aspects of NZ life and understand traditional NZ sport but at their core are not Football Folk and hhhmmm eeerrr fail [hope that is not to strong a word] to connect to the broader Football community... 

The fixtures are set to be released this Thursday. Stay tuned for more details. #BeautifulGame https://t.co/hp2niC0HEX

— Hyundai A-League (@ALeague) June 6, 2016

Midfielder, I like a lot of what you say but this statement is a load of tosh - Nix fans like this no more than any other club's fans would, CCM included - for the same reasons. The real key difference is that every signal was that the Nix's licence was likely not to be renewed - negotiations went on for well over a year. Meanwhile, all other clubs were granted 20 years, making it look even more likely Nix were on the way out (and there were other signals too). As far as i can recall, CCM were NEVER in this position. 

To me Nix were held over a barrel, and I don't think for a minute FFA were not deeply involved in suggesting "NZ Nix" (yuk!) games had to be played out of Wellington to beef up attendances over a season or four - as that will help them hit  a metric which needs to be hit. It's all very well saying a winning team will bring in the crouds (we all know that), but which is the safer bet to hit a metric - Auk numbers boosting crouds twice a year or HOPE the team MIGHT win more regularly? If anyone is in any doubt, the granting of a licence has nothing to do with football.

GG

I'll take your word for it but I am very surprised FFA would get to the level of planning you have posted... that FFA set metric's there is no doubt and that they drove a hard bargain was for all to see ... I have no doubt they would have been very demanding and wanting as much as possible data supporting plans put forward... However as I said I'll take your statement at face value that FFA were heavily and actively involved in the planning and development stages.. that is a huge step for the governing body..

Is there a plan moving forward to reduce the number of home games played away..

At the Mariners Charlesworth [Mariners owner] has held a number of public forums and a fans pod cast were no question was off limit and to his credit he did answer all questions and argued his case. He explained how we loose money below a certain crowd number on game day, so moving a couple of games means we have a club and maybe some extra money to spend on players.... further he said FFA will not save us and he feels if we fell over it may suit FFA ... our saviour is and will be the COE... FFA would never be forgiven if the COE fell into NRL or AFL ownership ..

Charlesworth has said if we can lift crowd averages and show the home games played away will get closer to break even we will play all games on the Coast..

Back to the Nix's it will be interesting to see growth in key areas. How the plans made all connect ... I would also love to know what the metric's are.

As a side issue like others have said before, if the new 12 K stadium had been approved there would most likely never have been an issue. 

Auckland twice is a Huawei thing, rather than a FFA/Nix thing. Huawei pay a sharkton of money and asked for an extra Auckland game, so they got it.

Well that sucks. Let's change the name to Huawei New Zealand Circus Phoenix. Imagine AIG telling United to play some of their games meant for Old Trafford at Wembly because it hold bigger crowds and could make them a bigger profit??

Actually, I will amend this... Perhaps Huawei might want to tell everyone that all Phoenix games are to kick off at 3pm on a Saturday and solve a lot of the clubs problems. Since they are running the show with bucket loads of money.

AK Phoenix Dons

But is the up to 4 predefined and Huawei asking that two of them be in Auckland?

Or was there going to be 2 and they added two because of Huawei?  because the former doesn't really mean shark for the wellington fans, but the later I can understand fans being a bit pissy at Huawei calling the shots.

And more importantly do we actually know how many regular season games wont be in Welly yet? 

Does NZ_Dave convey opinions voiced on here to the club, as he is the official liason between YF & the club? Wouldn't it be more effective going through the established channels of communication. Maybe we could have a regular update about discussions between the club & YF. 

At the end of the day, the sponsors are the ones that help to turn a profit or minimise deficits, so I don't think it's unreasonable for them to want this to happen, especially when they are pouring millions(?) into this club. Without them we might not even have a club. If you wanted to invest the same amount into the Nix as what they are, then I'm sure the club would be happy to keep all the games in Wellington.

*Source: http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2016/04/18...

I will let you into a secret, without the 6 or 7 thousand  core group of fans, there definitely would be no club.

I completely understand (and it's also my personal opinion) that the club should be trying to build it's Wellington Supporter base and that it's complete bullshark that there is a chance that we could be playing 28% of our 'home' games away from our home. But I also understand the business side of things, and that it could be better for the long term to keep the major sponsor happy over the short term (within reason), especially when they have recently signed the biggest football sponsorship deal in the clubs short history. 

I am a WELLINGTON Phoenix fan.

I have travelled to most of the NZ based games over the past 10 years supporting the WELLINGTON Phoenix.

I have travelled to a lot of games in Australia over the past eight years supporting the WELLINGTON Phoenix.

FFA gave the license to the WELLINGTON Phoenix.

Huawei sponsor the WELLINGTON Phoenix.

Can we keep the common denominator in focus? 

This season I will be supporting the WELLINGTON Phoenix wherever they play,

but, I shall only be going to see them in WELLINGTON.

Admittedly, my financial situation has changed to previous years, but the main reason I am taking this stance is that I support Wellington Phoenix & I want to see them play in Wellington.

Rather than take the club to Auckland twice, why not do a deal with AirNZ or Jetstar to bring more people down to Wellington for the weekend on special deals, like they do with the Warriors. 

Our normal contact point has left the Phoenix. Dave's establishing who is taking over that role and will raise it.

Don't even joke about that. (Although would would a Wimbledon FC fan living in Milton Keynes have done in 2002?)

The principle is exactly the same without blinkers on.

This is the email I have sent to phoenixadmin@wellingtonphoenix.com

The question is, is 6-7,000 core fans enough to sustain the club? If it's not, what is the target of core fans to be attained in Wellington that could sustain the club? Is that target realistic? And how much time do we have to attain that target, and what strategies can be used to keep the club afloat in the meantime?

I think the estimate of 6-7000 core fans is incorrect, more like 4000. How many season tickets are $20 kids tickets?, I had 4 of them last year & couldn't even get my own 2 kids to get to most games.

FFA care more about TV $ than attendance figures. 

Hopefully the crowds hold in Wgtn and don't impact Welnix bottom line too much.

It's not like the out of town games drag in 20k per game any more either.  Is it worth all the trouble to get 1000 more punters in the gate for four games?

Wouldn't winning in Wellington get you that anyway without disenfranchising your core fans, without frustrating the players and support staff and with building a schedule so week to week people have some idea when the Phoenix will play a game in Wellington?

But that's the question - are the current crowds enough to sustain the club's bottom line? It's not all just about the FFA.

The issue with TV is that clearly not enough people outside Wellington watch the Phoenix on TV. Until they do, there's no incentive for Sky to increase the $ amount they pay for the rights. So how do you encourage higher viewership figures outside Wellington?

Win.

Win and win regularly

Did winning two years ago significantly increase the crowds? The biggest crowd two years ago was around 13k against Sydney (the game where with a win we'd have been one game away from the Grand final), and the play-off game drew 10k. 11k in Auckland that season was the second-highest crowd. The play-off game we played two years prior to that (when we finished 4th in Ricki's second to last season) also drew around 10k. I don't think 'win and crowds will immediately increase' argument is borne out through recent evidence. 

...but by the same token the crowds for out of town games have decreased progressively every season and now we're diluting the value of a 'one off' game by going to the same market twice in a season.  

A city that last season in the middle of the #SaveTheNix hype managed under 11k in a market 4 times larger than Wellington.

Most of the Wellington crowds in 2014/15 season were in the 6-8k range (there was a 9k one for the first Lower Hutt game). The only double-figures in Wellington were the play-off crunch time (i.e. the last regular season game, and the play-off game).

I think there are a couple of issues when using the first play-off season as an example of what could be done (and don't get me wrong, I'd love us to be able to replicate that). Firstly, it's the most distant play-off/winning season from right here, and right now, and the more recent pattern of those seasons has got nowhere near that level. Which bring me to the second point - that season was played in a very different context. This is the season in which we qualified for the World Cup (35k in Wellington against Bahrain early that season), so the football was at a possibly all-time high, with a lot of positive outlook for the All Whites and the World Cup, which also benefited the Phoenix, as a lot of people jumped on the Nix bandwagon, which led to those play-off crowds (there was probably a degree of excitement and hope in replicating the experiences of the World Cup play-off). It also helped that Phoenix were playing well and winning, and in Ifill we had one of the bext players in the league at the time. All of these factors combined together for an unforgettable season, but we've come nowhere near replicating it off the field, even though we've had seasons on the field that weren't far too off that season. We can't rely on the All Whites providing the same context again in the near future, so the Phoenix have to do this on their own this time around.

But it's still more that the crowd they'd have got here, based on the evidence of the last few seasons.

Undoubtedly the All Whites played a big part in some of those crowds but you can't attribute all the success to that. We were playing an ok brand of football, were scoring goals, had a relative Superstar in Ifill and more importantly imo were winning.

I recall somewhere in the past Dale produced some graphs or spreadsheets showing the relationship between winning and the following weeks crowds. Again I seem to recall Dome saying the best way to boost crowds was to win the previous week at home

Clearly it's not all down to the All Whites, but I don't think the context can be ignored, especially since we've come nowhere near replicating that level of interest since, despite having seasons that were almost as successful since.

I don't think I'm saying that winning doesn't improve the crowds - I'm sure it does, but I guess the issue is that the recent evidence does not indicate that it's a marked, or significant, improvement in the short run. Now it may be in the long run, but like I've been trying to say, what constitutes the long-run, and how to keep the club afloat in the meantime is the big issue that the club has to resolve right now.

Objection M'lud, pure conjecture. In the last few seasons there hadn't been a hugely successful #SaveTheNix campaign

Yes, winning boosts crowds in Wellington. Though this boost is reducing year by year.

Yes, taking games to Auckland boosts crowds. Though this boost is reducing year by year.

We cannot schedule a few more wins.

We can schedule a few games in Auckland (and boost our sponsors relationship/dollars).

Yes, this is a bit fudgeed. But this is reality.

Huaweillington Phone-ix, proudly brought to a big city near you (or not) by the FFA.

Touche Hatter, it is conjecture. But not an unreasonable one - the next home game in Wellington drew a smaller crowd than the one for the Auckland game - which we'd won, actually, so according to the argument 'win and crowds increase' that should have led to a larger crowd.

But at the same time aren't the costs of going to another venue higher?  I kind of think that crowd attendance is a mute point.  The last few seasons have shown that there isn't a massive difference between Wellington crowds and other NZ venues (I think Adelaide at Auckland may have been the one exception).

I can only think this is more about what the sponsors want and perhaps increasing the viewership numbers on SKY through getting more people around the country interested.  To be honest I'm sort of fine with it if that's what the sponsors want, but I'm not wholly convinced if this is the right way to boost SKY numbers (have no info so can't really say I guess).

And while it is yet another excuse for the Wellington crowds - wasn't that last play-off game held the same time as the Cricket World Cup Final?  FFA screwed us there - we were never going to get a good crowd given the circumstances.

BUT...Welnix have been unable to sell a "win" strategy to FFA, have they? 

On here so far the alternatives seem to fall into 1 of 2 camps

1. Win. And if I was FFA (driven by a range of metrics) and I had a club telling me "wait until we win" my response would be - yeah, nah.

2. "Put all the marketing $ into Wellington" - from FFA viewpoint, this doesn't build TV audience nationwide - yeah, nah.

If Nix do start winning then I expect crouds to be up wherever they play - winning all round, so FFA will be pleased.

But if I was FFA and wanted to bank some nationwide metrics, I'd set up an Auckland franchise.